Critique My First Lager Plan

[Echoloc8]

Hey all, I'm making a Negra Modelo clone, my first ever lager fermentation, this weekend.

Brew day is tomorrow. Style is Vienna Lager, and the target OG is 1.051.

• (Tonight) Set my ferm fridge to 45F
• (Tonight) Make my starter: 2 vials WLP802 in 1.5L at room temp (edit: with stir plate)
• (Tomorrow AM) Brew the wort at my brew buddy's house tomorrow, finish ~6 PM
• (Tomorrow PM) Drive the chilled wort (65-70F) back to my house
• (Tomorrow PM) Chill the wort and starter to 45F
• (Sunday AM) Decant the starter beer and pitch at 45F
• (Sunday AM) Raise ferm fridge to 50F for fermentation
• Ferment for 7-10 days at 50F, until 75% of FG
• Raise ferm fridge to 60F, or use room temp for 65F
• Diacetyl rest for 3 days
• Transfer to secondary
• Chill to 40F for lagering
• Lager for 5 weeks (1 week for each of 10 pts of 1.051 OG)
• Transfer to keg; carb, share and enjoy

I know the schedule isn't optimal for the starter, but my understanding is that this is about the best I can do without doing a retroactively better job of planning.

Am I missing anything, or do I need to consider anything I don't list here?

-Rich

 

[helibrewer]

My only comment would have been the yeast starter. Ideally you would need 2 steps for a 1.5L starter (I'm doing the same thing as I type for a German Pils). Using 2 vials in a single 1.5L starter doesn't gain you much since the growth factor is reduced but it's better than 1 vial

You could also consider skipping secondary, I personally don't use one for my lagers.

 

[kombat]

As you noted, my main concern would be the starter. It looks like you're only going to be cold crashing it for about 12 hours. In my opinion, that's not nearly long enough to get the majority of the yeast to precipitate out of solution. After 12 hours, there will still be plenty of yeast in the liquid as you decant it Sunday morning. If it were an ale, I'd just pitch the whole starter, but since it's a lager, I'm a little more apprehensive about the off-flavours in that spent wort. In an ideal world, you'd want to cold-crash the starter for at least 2 days, and pitch it into the wort as soon as the wort has been cooled and aerated. But as you said, you're working with a sub-optimal schedule here, so I guess all you can do is make the best of the situation.

All that said, I guess I'd still decant the spent wort and just pitch whatever yeast has had a chance to fall to the bottom overnight.

My only other comment would be regarding the secondary: Why bother?

 

[stpug]

[*]Ferment for 7-10 days at 50F, until 75% of FG
[/LIST]

My vienna lager was at FG before 7 days with Wyeast BoPils yeast fermenting at 50F. If you really want to catch it at 75% of FG then you should check it on day 4 from the start of fermentation.

Regardless, even though I had reached FG by day 7, I gave a 3 day DR, transferred to keg and lagered for 5 weeks at 34-36F (i.e. no secondary). I'm drinking it now and it's splendid!!

 

[Echoloc8]

All that said, I guess I'd still decant the spent wort and just pitch whatever yeast has had a chance to fall to the bottom overnight.

My only other comment would be regarding the secondary: Why bother?

Thanks for the confirmation of my crash plan. Given that the wort will be chilling, would it be safe to do a full 48 hr crash before pitching, or is 12-hrs-ish a good split of the difference between likelihood of infection and good separation of the starter beer?

As for secondary: I don't secondary any of my ales unless I'm oaking or using fruit, but I read (from such luminaries as Yooper) that for lagers the longer time on the yeast merits moving to a secondary for the lager phase. I've got plenty of containers, so it seems logical to me.

-Rich

 

[Echoloc8]

My vienna lager was at FG before 7 days with Wyeast BoPils yeast fermenting at 50F. If you really want to catch it at 75% of FG then you should check it on day 4 from the start of fermentation.

Thanks for the heads-up on this one. I'll keep an eye out starting on Day 4.

-Rich

 

[Echoloc8]

My only comment would have been the yeast starter. Ideally you would need 2 steps for a 1.5L starter (I'm doing the same thing as I type for a German Pils). Using 2 vials in a single 1.5L starter doesn't gain you much since the growth factor is reduced but it's better than 1 vial

I can make starters up to 2L; would going to 2L matter, or is the problem the lack of step-up and not the volume? I was originally just going by the numbers MrMalty gave me.

-Rich

 

[BigFloyd]

Bump the starter to 1.8-2L. Crash the starter for 24hrs+.

Since you're going to keg this, transfer to the keg after the the cold crash and lager it in the keg. Not only will you be able to skip an unnecessary step of a secondary, once it's done, you can simply carb and enjoy. If you want, you can move it to gas a couple weeks before your lager period is over, set it to 11psi and leave it alone.

 

[Echoloc8]

Bump the starter to 1.8-2L. Crash the starter for 24hrs+.

Since you're going to keg this, transfer to the keg after the the cold crash and lager it in the keg. Not only will you be able to skip an unnecessary step of a secondary, once it's done, you can simply carb and enjoy. If you want, you can move it to gas a couple weeks before your lager period is over, set it to 11psi and leave it alone.

Okay, 2L starter crashed for 24 sounds reasonable.

Only gotcha with the keg is taking it out of kegerator circulation for 5 weeks, which I'd rather not.

-Rich

 

[BigFloyd]

Okay, 2L starter crashed for 24 sounds reasonable.

Only gotcha with the keg is taking it out of kegerator circulation for 5 weeks, which I'd rather not.

-Rich

Sounds like you need more kegs.

I've found that having 2 kegs for every tap (6 and 3 for me) works pretty well.

FYI-- about 14-16 hours on the stirplate is all you need to build the culture so long as you aerate the heck out of the starter wort beforehand. If I'm not bubbling O2 in it, I use a 2-quart mason jar to shake 1 quart each time before putting it in the flask.

 

[Yooper]

Sometimes lager yeast are slow to flocculate, and I think I'd either pitch the whole starter (it's not that big), or to cold crash longer and decant.

 

[Goetinger]

If you ferment your starter at lager temps and use an air lock (after aeration), can't you just skip the cold crash and dump the whole starter into your wort? I have tasted my lager starter beer fermented at lager temps, and do not identify any off-flavors. Heck, I have even boiled the wort in the actual Erlenmeyer flask w/ flavor hops to further reduce the flavor impact to the fresh wort.

I arrived at this procedure when I noticed not enough yeast was floc-ing out when I cold crashed the starter. Even after 2 days, I still had valuable yeast in suspension.

feel free to poke holes.

 

[Cyclman]

If you ferment your starter at lager temps and use an air lock (after aeration), can't you just skip the cold crash and dump the whole starter into your wort? I have tasted my lager starter beer fermented at lager temps, and do not identify any off-flavors. Heck, I have even boiled the wort in the actual Erlenmeyer flask w/ flavor hops to further reduce the flavor impact to the fresh wort.

I arrived at this procedure when I noticed not enough yeast was floc-ing out when I cold crashed the starter. Even after 2 days, I still had valuable yeast in suspension.

feel free to poke holes.

You're basically just fermenting a small amount of beer, which is obviously perfect. But it takes longer for the starter to ferment doing it at lager temps, room temp it'll ferment much faster.

 

[BigFloyd]

You're basically just fermenting a small amount of beer, which is obviously perfect. But it takes longer for the starter to ferment doing it at lager temps, room temp it'll ferment much faster.

+1. Lager starters with the stir plate sitting on the kitchen counter (at 70*F) works for me. After 14-16 hours on the plate, I'll cold crash at 35*F for at least a day. At that temp, it drops out pretty well given 24-36 hours.

 

[kombat]

If you ferment your starter at lager temps and use an air lock (after aeration), can't you just skip the cold crash and dump the whole starter into your wort?

The problem is the stir plate.

During growing a proper starter, you use a stir plate to ensure the wort is continuously aerated. This accelerates yeast growth and dramatically increases cell yield.

The purpose of a starter is not to speed up the start of fermentation or make drinkable starter wort. The one and only purpose of a yeast starter is to increase yeast cell count. That's all. That's the only point of doing a starter. So everything I do regarding my yeast starters is focused solely on maximizing that one, singular goal. What do I have to do to get the most possible yeast cells out of this starter?

The answer, of course, is to ferment it slightly warm, and continuously aerate with a stir plate. Fermenting cold without the stir plate will (eventually) make me a nice little 2L batch of lager beer, but that's not the point of a starter. The point of a starter is to grow the yeast as much as possible. And fermenting at lager temperatures, without continous aeration, works against that goal.

 

[Echoloc8]

Okay, it's been a great discussion since I last posted.

To nail it down: I did ferment my 2L starter (pitching 2 vials) for about 18 hrs at room temp (call it 65F) on a stir plate. :rockin:

I then cold crashed at 45F for 24 hrs, and was pleased to find that the starter beer was pretty darn clear! I decanted about 85-90% of that starter beer, sloshed the remainder with the yeast cake to get it mobile, and pitched it (minus the stir bar, which I held back with a magnet against the base of the flask) into 45F wort.

I then let it rise to 50F for the fermentation, where it is now. I'll check gravity around Thursday to see if it's D-rest time.

-Rich

 

[Echoloc8]

I'll check gravity around Thursday to see if it's D-rest time.

Welp, it's Thursday. The airlock is still bubbling at about a pop every 2 seconds (the fastest it's been). The plan is in fact to test tomorrow, not least because I'm hitting the gym tonight, and won't be home until late.

I'll be certain to degas my sample, too. Been doing some reading.

-Rich