Asking for critique of my yeast starter method

[J.Miller]

Please provide a critique of my yeast starter method. I am interested in learning potential problems I could have with this method. So far, I have done this method maybe twenty-some times total with lager yeast and ale yeast (no kviek yeast) without problems that I can detect.

1. I use a glass one gallon jug as the starter vessel that is cleaned with OxyClean free, rinsed with tap water several times, and sanitized with idophor, along with a sanitized aluminum foil temporary cover over the opening.
2. I brew my batch of wort, determine the OG, and when the OG is higher than 1.040, calculate the volume ratio of pitch-temperature wort to boiled and cooled RO water to combine together to result in a diluted, 1 liter volume of wort with a SG about equal to 1.040. I'll take a refractometer test as a check on the starter.
3. I'll aerate the wort before I pitch a liquid yeast, or direct sprinkle on top if I use a dry yeast.
4. At the estimated high krausen time, I pitch the starter into the fermentation vessel that has been closed and containing my brewed wort at pitch temperature. This may be 6 to some 12 hours after wort cooling.
5. Thanks much, Jeff Miller

 

[VikeMan]

I'm guessing your question isn't really about your starter method, but rather about storing wort for 6-12 hours before pitching yeast. You can certainly do that if your sanitation is good. But one impact will be more oxidation, i.e. O2 dissolved in the wort after boiling has time to oxidize compounds in the wort, because there's no yeast to remove it. But if you are happy with how your beers are coming out, it may be a fair tradeoff.

You may also want to consider reducing the amount of hops used (especially late hops), if your main batch wort spends significant time at high-ish temps, because some IBUs are gained during what amounts to a hopstand. (You didn't mention how you are cooling/storing that wort.)

 

[Bassman2003]

What are your expectations for the starter? Do you want to make a lot of new cells or just invigorate before pitching? It is wise to chose one or the other when setting out to make a starter.

To make a lot of new cells one needs to make large starters in comparison to the starting cells count. For example, if you are starting with one vial of liquid yeast, you would need a 1.5 -2 liter starter to basically double your cells count. This needs days to work and finish out just like a fermentation batch.

What you have described is what is known as a vitality starter. This basically feeds the current yeast cells and gets them active and working to tackle the batch. But it does not really result in creating many new cells.

I think the main purpose of yeast staters is to make new, fresh cells if you need them. If you are trying to pitch old yeast and they need to be revived, then you should probably be growing up new and more yeast to begin with! I have gone that route and it never ends as well as you want. Yeast management is the hidden Most important part of making beer imho.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I brew my batch of wort, determine the OG, and when the OG is higher than 1.040, calculate the volume ratio of pitch-temperature wort to boiled and cooled RO water to combine together to result in a diluted, 1 liter volume of wort with a SG about equal to 1.040.

When you say "brew my batch of wort", this is the wort for the batch of beer you are brewing, right? At what point in the process do you pull off the wort? Right at the start of the boil? At the end of the boil? After the full batch is chilled?

I agree that this is the classic "vitality starter". It provides a low gravity and oxygen rich environment that should be ideal for yeast to build up their cells to get ready for fermentation. You won't get much growth. In theory, this will help liquid yeast more than dry yeast, but it probably gives a boost to dry yeast as well.

Other options are to make a large starter (say 2L or larger) several days ahead of time, and decanting the spent wort. This would yield a lot more cell growth. Another common strategy is to make a similar 1 liter starter the evening before. This should provide similar benefits to your method, but the yeast should be ready to pitch as soon as you chill your batch. The downside of both of these methods is they require an additional step to make a small batch of wort (often from DME, or pre-packaged wort).

The question I would have for your method, and I don't know the answer, is if you are better off aerating your wort and pitching the yeast directly into the wort, vs waiting 6 to 12 hours for your vitality starter to kick into gear?

My most common method with liquid yeast is to make a starter the evening before targeting about 5% of my batch size (1L for a 20L / 5 gal batch). If using large cell count packs from Imperial or Omega (White Labs has new higher cell packs too), I most likely would direct pitch the pack. These days, I am much more likely to use dry yeast, which I will direct pitch into my chilled wort. If I need to grown up cells, I will use a calculator to calculate my starter size, and use a larger jar on a stir plate 3-4 days before brew day.

 

[hotbeer]

I don't really understand the desire to make a starter when using dry yeast.

Starters seem to me as just "proofing" the yeast to make certain you didn't get a bad batch of yeast. I've never found a bad batch of dry yeast whether for bread or beer.

So since you ask for a critique, consider my wonderment that anyone desires to make a starter with dry yeast a crtitique.

Of course you mention you leave the yeast in the starter for a much longer period than the starter process described by the dry yeast makers which is typically 20 - 30 minutes IIRC.

So maybe what you are really doing is multiplying your yeast because you didn't want to buy another packet.

Possibly I'm confusing the meaning of the terms "starter" and "rehydration" of yeast as being the same thing.

 

[VikeMan]

Possibly I'm confusing the meaning of the terms "starter" and "rehydration" of yeast as being the same thing.

Starters increase cell counts, which is the primary purpose of a starter, at least a traditional starter (where fermentation of the starter wort is allowed to go to completion before pitching into the main bacth wort). "Vitality" starters increase them less than a traditional starter. Rehydration (with water) doesn't increase cell counts at all.

Starters seem to me as just "proofing" the yeast to make certain you didn't get a bad batch of yeast. I've never found a bad batch of dry yeast whether for bread or beer.

Wyeast "smack packs" come with a tiny amount of sugar and nutrients in a little pouch. When the pouch is broken, releasing its contents into the pack, the pack will eventually swell, proving that there are viable yeast in the pack. Virtually no cell growth happens. Smack packs are not really a "starter," though sometimes people will call them that.

 

[J.Miller]

• The wort that I brew after boil completion of the beer I am brewing is cooled with an immersion chiller to upper 60's F, then further chilling on my basement floor - or in a water bath - or keezer depending on desired pitch temperature. This wort then "waits" for the vitality starter pitched at around high krausen.
• Meanwhile, after yeast pitch into the vitality starter, I'll cool the starter to near the desired pitching temperature of the wort in an attempt to reduce shock.
• Thanks Vike, I will add some CO2 in the headspace above the wort.
• I've done this vitality starter procedure for two reasons:
  • S. cerevisiae shaken not stirred various forum posts (with the shaking oxidation procedure for liquid yeast, not for dry yeast)
  • Elimination of time, effort, and buying LME or DME, or pressure-canning wort of a more traditional starter procedure.
• Thanks for the replies and critiques! Jeff Miller

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thanks for the replies and critiques!

What advantage do you think this gives over just pitching the yeast into your beer?

I think when most people do a vitality starter like your process, they often grab wort from right at the start of the boil. Then they can get the yeast a head start of several hours before they get to the point where the main batch has been boiled and chilled down to pitching temps. This would likely also work very well for a no-chill batch.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

As a follow up...I think my biggest critique is that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to yeast and starters. Even if you are always brewing the same size batch you need to take into account many factors including:

• Gravity of the wort (a 1.045 beer has a different needs than a 1.065 or 1.095 beer)
• Fermentation temperature (a lager at 50F will need a lot more yeast than an ale at 70F)
• Cell Counts (the 100B cell packs from White Labs and Wyeast are different than the 200B packs from Omega and Imperial)
• Age of Yeast (liquid yeast will decline significantly from a 1 month old pack to a 5 month old pack)

My beers improved when I started to think more about my yeast needs for each batch. I might be okay if I have to pitch a fresh pack of a Wyeast ale strain into a 1.048 batch if I oxygenate it well (though a starter is a good idea), but if I start adding up factors (old yeast pack, lager ferment, high gravity, larger batch) I start to add in more work to prep my yeast. Maybe I need a 2 stage starter, or I may seek out a fresh pack of Imperial yeast, or move to 2 packs of dry yeast. Since I often brew 2.5 gallon batches, I might start off there and build up a yeast pitch for a high gravity beer (or brew a 2.5 gal batch of a high gravity beer since the yeast needs are half of a 5 gallon batch).

I am not a stickler for yeast pitch calculators, but I do think looking at the factors there help to drive an informed decisions about yeast pitch rates. You can pitch less than the "ideal" yeast if you are pitching healthy yeast and managing fermentation, but you do need to at least pitch a reasonable amount of yeast. I like: Homebrew Dad's Online Yeast Starter Calculator

 

[J.Miller]

Thanks Cascades for your critiques.

I think when most people do a vitality starter like your process, they often grab wort from right at the start of the boil.

• I thought wort boiling was necessary for the brewing process for a number of reasons, and that is why I use boiled wort for the starters. Is "raw beer" a no-boil beer? I haven't read up on that process. I guess I am reluctant to put un-boiled wort in my beer for that reason. Please help me understand that if I use un-boiled wort for a starter, all will be well, and I will use your suggestion. Thanks!
• Also, I dropped S. cerevisiae name without detail for brevity. I read his studies indicated yeast cell growth happens quickly after pitching his shaken not stirred starter method.
• Regarding yeast starter calculators, I have used Brewfather, and Brewers Friend yeast calculators to determine "how many packs of yeast" to pitch into a starter accounting for such factors as, among some others: specific gravity of starter wort and desired beer, and lager or ale, and yeast pitch rates.
• Thanks, Jeff Miller

 

[VikeMan]

• Also, I dropped S. cerevisiae name without detail for brevity. I read his studies indicated yeast cell growth happens quickly after pitching his shaken not stirred starter method.

He sounds like a FunGuy.

 

[Bassman2003]

What are you looking to learn from your original post? To see if your method is viable or if there might be a better way? You had never said if you are looking to grow or just wake up yeast.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

• I thought wort boiling was necessary for the brewing process for a number of reasons, and that is why I use boiled wort for the starters. Is "raw beer" a no-boil beer? I haven't read up on that process. I guess I am reluctant to put un-boiled wort in my beer for that reason. Please help me understand that if I use un-boiled wort for a starter, all will be well, and I will use your suggestion. Thanks!

I did not say un-boiled wort, just wort that has only been boiled briefly. This is not a method that I have ever used myself. Some searching turned up at least one person said they took some of their first runnings, brought them up to a boil, and chilled them. I see some other that spin up the vitality starter during the hours it takes for the wort to get fully down to pitching temps.

For me, making a starter the evening before brew day is fast, easy and cheap enough that it is my preferred method if I just want to "wake up" the yeast and I am using liquid yeast. I have usually done a shaken-not-stirred approach, though I did pick up a stir plate last year. I direct pitch when using dry yeast.

If your process is working fine for you and is making great beer, then keep doing that.

This is an interesting data point. At least in this one specific batch of lager, a traditional starter that built up cell counts resulted in a much faster fermentation, even if both beers turned out fine in the end. exBEERiment | Yeast Pitch Rate: Vitality Starter vs. Viability Starter In A Czech Pale Lager

 

[Jag75]

I haven't used a stir plate forever. SNS process is what I'd when using liquid yeast. Works flawlessly every time . I also use the can propper starter, expensive but worth it.

 

[J.Miller]

This is an interesting data point. At least in this one specific batch of lager, a traditional starter that built up cell counts resulted in a much faster fermentation, even if both beers turned out fine in the end. exBEERiment | Yeast Pitch Rate: Vitality Starter vs. Viability Starter In A Czech Pale Lager

Thanks Cascades, I'll check this out. Also your YouTube channel because it has interesting content!

Jag75, I agree with both of your items, I like the simplicity and results of the SNS method and haven't used my stir plate since.

What are you looking to learn from your original post? To see if your method is viable or if there might be a better way? You had never said if you are looking to grow or just wake up yeast.

• Bassman, both. I was purposely general in my post, because I wanted critiques of whatever interested the reader. I attempt to use yeast as fresh as possible that my schedule allows. I have preferred using dry yeast for about the last year because I had some liquid yeast viability issues during 2021. I think I was confused with identifying yeast krausen appearance in a starter verses the viability - some yeasts normally produce a thin krausen and others go ballistic and I didn't know if the liquid yeast was somehow damaged by handling before I bought it. From these starters, I had a few batches that were undrinkable and I dumped them.
• I was most concerned about about affects of "storage" of post-boil-and-chilled wort due to delayed yeast pitching. I am lesser concerned about yeast cell growth because of reading S. cerevisiae posted content. But as always as an engineer, I am striving for a better way.
• Wow, I watch and appreciate your YouTube channel, and only today did I learn it is you!

He sounds like a FunGuy.

Yup.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

There is some overalap of this topic and some discussion on this thread, especially some of the recent discussion of Colin Kaminski's discussion of his current yeast starter process (link to page 2 since that is past most of the bickering from page 1):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...you-pitch-a-yeast-starter-in-it.727053/page-2
@Bassman2003: How fast after chilling do you pitch yeast?

 

[Bassman2003]

@J.Miller - Yeast like homebrewing is dependent upon how far you want to pursue it. After you brew long enough, all of the process and equipment is taken care of so a lot of focus turns to creating plenty of healthy yeast. For me, the yeast process starts the week before I brew. I take a frozen vial out, let it sit overnight then make a 250ml starter on a homemade stir plate. For lagers I take two vials out and run a parallel batch. A few days later I step that up to a 2 liter starter. Let that go and put on the fridge the night before I brew. On brew day, while my wort is "resting" after chilling I siphon off the wort above the yeast then go pitch.

I am unclear how long your starter wort is sitting. Can you shed some light on that? I am learning low oxygen brewing, so I try not to leave things open for O2 is get into. But most brewers are not low Ox, so that may not concern you. If it is relatively short (outside of pressure canning needs) the wort should be fine.

Glad you enjoy the channel. I have a full system and brewday video I have wanted to shoot but I have had a busy spring. Hopefully in late June/July I can make an overview video of my entire setup and brewday process.

@CascadesBrewer - I chill to the desired temp, then let the wort rest for 20-40 minutes with a floating cap & lid in the boil kettle. I then drain, oxygenate and pitch. This yields very clear wort into the fermenter. (which is important to me).

 

[J.Miller]

Cascades, thanks for link because I am interested in that subject.

Bassman, I am looking forward to your overview video. Regarding your question, please critique my answer:

I am unclear how long your starter wort is sitting. Can you shed some light on that? I am learning low oxygen brewing, so I try not to leave things open for O2 is get into. But most brewers are not low Ox, so that may not concern you. If it is relatively short (outside of pressure canning needs) the wort should be fine.

For ale yeast, the sitting time between end of wort chilling to pitching the starter into my wort is about 6 to 12 hours. For lager yeast, the sitting time is about 16 to 28 hours. I close the fermentation and starter vessels with sanitized foil or an airlock system. I am retired, so I brew when I know I will be at home.

Sorry, here is more detail:

The beer batch wort is cooled in my boil kettle with my immersion chiller to about the desired pitch temperature for ale yeast, then immediately transferred to my fermentation vessel and yeast starter vessel. Without time delay, the ale yeast is pitched into the starter. When the starter is at about the high krausen, some 6 to 12 hours later, I pitch it into the fermentation vessel. I'll use sanitized foil as a closure on both vessels.

For ±50° lager yeast pitch temperature, the immersion chiller cooled wort in my boil kettle is transferred to my fermentation and started vessels, and additional cooling time of about less than 4 hours is needed to reach the desired pitch temperature by placing both in my keezer or in my ice water bath. When the starter reaches the desired pitch temperature, about 12 to 24 hours later, I pitch the starter into the fermentation vessel, which by that time has reached the desired pitch temperature. I'll use a conventional airlock or a larger capacity airlock system for closures on both, depending on suspected change in volume during cooling.

@CascadesBrewer - I chill to the desired temp, then let the wort rest for 20-40 minutes with a floating cap & lid in the boil kettle. I then drain, oxygenate and pitch. This yields very clear wort into the fermenter. (which is important to me).

Bassman, do you whirlpool your wort (with or without whirlpool hops) during the 20-40 minutes rest to segregate the wort before transfer to your fermenter?

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the details. So you are just taking some wort out of the batch and making a quick vitality starter then adding it back in right? My critique would be to say that I do not know if you are gaining much in this scenario and adding oxidation along the way. I would say you are better off just pitching the yeast in the batch or making a starter before brew day and having the yeast ready to go. In the first option you get active yeast in your batch right away. In the second option you have the opportunity to grow more yeast as well as get them ready to ferment your batch.

I do not whirlpool, just let it settle to the bottom. I then have a rotating output arm and try to only transfer the clear wort to the fermenter.

I hope to have the open time to make the overview in late June/July.

 

[VikeMan]

Thanks for the details. So you are just taking some wort out of the batch and making a quick vitality starter then adding it back in right?

He's not making a quick vitality starter. He's letting it go 6-24 hours.

 

[Bassman2003]

I guess it it not that quick but it still seems like a vitality starter.

 

[madscientist451]

Please provide a critique of my yeast starter method. I am interested in learning potential problems I could have with this method. So far, I have done this method maybe twenty-some times total with lager yeast and ale yeast (no kviek yeast) without problems that I can detect.

If your method works for 20+ times, why not stick with it?

I brew my batch of wort, determine the OG, and when the OG is higher than 1.040, calculate the volume ratio of pitch-temperature wort to boiled and cooled RO water to combine together to result in a diluted, 1 liter volume of wort with a SG about equal to 1.040. I'll take a refractometer test as a check on the starter.

My 2 cents: You're over-thinking it and over working yourself.
As prices have escalated and my brewing time has diminished, I've turned away from liquid yeast (not totally) and just keep things simple with dry yeast.
With dry yeast and regular strength ales, you can just sprinkle the yeast in. I save the yeast slurry and pitch about half of it into the next batch. I save the other half in a jar in the 'fridge and if it sits more than a few weeks I just make a small starter with a few cups of water and some DME. If you are careful with your saved yeast and your starters, you can keep a yeast strain going a long time.
When brewing lagers, I sprinkle the yeast pack into a 2.5 gallon batch and then pitch the yeast cake into the next full size batch. I'll run 5-6 lagers and then maybe save some of the yeast or toss it.
I used to have a large yeast bank and kept yeast going for many years, but these days I have moved towards simplifying everything and now have 3-4 yeast strains on hand and switch back to new dry yeast after 4-6 runs. I usually brew all my lagers in the springtime for summer drinking and so this works for me.
Some yeast strains, like SF lager yeast and some of the Abbey ale strains are almost "bulletproof" and will withstand long storage times, many generations and similar abuse. Other strains seem quick to drift off the intended path and have to be monitored and cared for to get the desired outcome.
If your method works for you why change anything? I'm just saying you make it much easier on yourself and not lose anything.

 

[J.Miller]

Thanks CascadesBrewer, Bassman2003 , VikeMan, and Madscientist451. I will continue with my method for the yeast starter. I will be careful about sanitization, and not buy LME, DME, or canned starters.

 

[mac_1103]

My critique would be to say that I do not know if you are gaining much in this scenario and adding oxidation along the way.

I thought that even the LoDO folks oxygenate their yeast.

 

[Bassman2003]

The oxidation is from letting the batch of wort sit for up to 24 hours while his starter is getting up to speed.