Countertop Brutus 20

[jkarp]

Ah, good. OK, the default settings are almost perfect. Only the Hysteresis Band needs adjusting from the default of 3 deg down to 1. Start by going into setup mode by pressing SET, entering 0089 and SET again. Hit the down arrow until HY is displayed. Hit SET, change the default value of 3 to 1, and hit SET again. Down arrow to END and hit SET to exit setup mode.

Fill the kettle with about 4 gallons of water. Press the Up arrow to set an SV of 150 deg. Press and hold > until the AT/M light starts blinking. This is the auto-tune mode. The PID will heat up and cool the kettle several times while it learns the response times of your system. This will take a while and PV WILL exceed SV. Don't worry and just let it do its thing. When auto-tune is finished, the AT/M light will go out. All learned settings are permanently saved so there's no need to auto-tune again unless you alter the system (new heater element, bigger kettle, etc.)

The PID is ready to use at this point. Simply enter your desired SV temp and the PID will do its best to reach and hold that temp. PV is of course always displaying the current temp reading from the thermocouple. For the boil, you'll probably want to switch the PID to manual mode. Press and hold SET until the AT/M light turns on. SV switches to displaying % output of the element. Simply use up/down to set your desired % output.

The remaining lights are all informational. AL1 and AL2 lights can be ignored. You can set temp ranges that turn them on/off via setup mode, but there's no real use for them. I may someday put buzzers on my AL1 / AL2 relays so the PID can alarm me as strike temps approach, etc. The Output light tells you when the SSR is being energized and power is flowing to the element.

If after use you notice the PV temp is off from a thermometer reading (read the water temp flowing into the mash tun - not directly in the kettle), you can adjust the thermocouple offset via setup. Go back into setup mode, arrow down to PSb, and set it to +/- the number of degrees the PV reading is off.

That should pretty much be it. I'm sure others will chime in with more usage tips.

 

[madisoneyes]

I am building my counter top brutus currently...I went all stainless...if anyone is having probs with getting some of the threaded fittings... http://www.buyfittingsonline.com has everything at reasonable prices...Their customer service has been stellar...

 

[ddknight]

Thanks for the great help Jkarp!! This was exactly what I was looking for. That makes things a lot easier to understand. I didn't think I'd need to use all the features of the controller but wasn't sure. Thanks again for the help and I look forward to a test run this week!

 

[AScott]

I did have to change the temp offset. Mine was off by about 6 degrees. I think part of this may be due to the short thermocouple combined with the sightglass assembly. I REALLY need to get the longer one. I think it will increase accuracy quite a bit.

 

[jkarp]

My offset is 6 deg too, if I recall. I suspect the panel disconnect induces some error.

 

[jkarp]

Pushed my CB-20 to the limit Monday, brewing up the BrewDog Hardcore IPA recipe in the new issue of BYO...

11 lbs of Maris Otter at 1.5 q/lb = exactly 5 gal of mash. I knew this one was gonna be a bear with a low mash temp of 149 deg and zero room left in the tun to pump up more hot water to get things flowing, and I was right.

It took an hour of runoff to get just 1.5 gallons of head space in the tun. I then had 3.5 gal in the kettle which I heated to boiling, and re-filled the mash tun to the top. After a good stir and 5 minute rest, the mash was then at about 160 deg and flowed much better. I started recirculating and ran it for a full 45 minutes.

Final result was 3.6 gal of 1.086 wort in the fermenter which is 74% efficiency. Definitely a LONG brew day with a 90 minute mash, 60 minute runoff, 45 minute recirc, and 90 minute boil, but I'm very pleased how versatile the CB-20 was in handling a tough high-gravity brew session and still managed respectable efficiency.

I've been thoroughly enjoying BrewDog's Paradox line recently (the Speyside was fantastic) and am looking forward to seeing how this monster IPA turns out. Hydrometer sample sure was good going down.

 

[mini1l]

In response to pid/tc offset, I too had a discrepancy with the liquid temp and the temp on the reading on the pid. I called auberins about the accuracy of their type k tc. auberins say they type k tc is accurate to 5 degrees and the rtd temp sensor is more accurate. I buy one and sure enough, the rtd temp sensor is very accurate. Hope this helps.

 

[CodeRage]

In response to pid/tc offset, I too had a discrepancy with the liquid temp and the temp on the reading on the pid. I called auberins about the accuracy of their type k tc. auberins say they type k tc is accurate to 5 degrees and the rtd temp sensor is more accurate. I buy one and sure enough, the rtd temp sensor is very accurate. Hope this helps.

+100! The Class A Pt100 RTDs are accurate to .27F and the Bs are .52F (at 0C).
Type K's as you've seen can be off by several.
The DS1822's are accurate to 1F at 0C
-40 to 125C 1% 10k NTC thermistor can vary by 5F.

RTDs are really the way to go. The are relatively slow to respond but for our needs accuracy is more important.

 

[jkarp]

After this morning's brew session, I'm gonna have to agree with CodeRage, but for a different reason.

Brewing up a mild for my neighbor, I set the PID to 164 and went off to do things. When I came back to dough in, I checked the strike water in the MLT and it was 180! WTF? I let things cool down, doughed in and chalked it up as a fluke. Come time to recirculate, I set the PID to 170 and let it rip. After about 15 minutes though, things just seemed "weird". Kettle seemed really hot but the PV only showed 147. As I start looking closer I bump the TC wire at the strain relief on the kettle. I heard the AL2 relay click on the PID and BANG - the PV instantly jumped to 168.

Well ****. The TC wire has a break somewhere inside the strain relief. Off to Auber I went and ordered a 4" liquid RTD. Nice that the RTD wiring disconnects from the sensor as well. That should avoid a repeat of this failure.

 

[CodeRage]

After this morning's brew session, I'm gonna have to agree with CodeRage, but for a different reason.

Brewing up a mild for my neighbor, I set the PID to 164 and went off to do things. When I came back to dough in, I checked the strike water in the MLT and it was 180! WTF? I let things cool down, doughed in and chalked it up as a fluke. Come time to recirculate, I set the PID to 170 and let it rip. After about 15 minutes though, things just seemed "weird". Kettle seemed really hot but the PV only showed 147. As I start looking closer I bump the TC wire at the strain relief on the kettle. I heard the AL2 relay click on the PID and BANG - the PV instantly jumped to 168.

Well ****. The TC wire has a break somewhere inside the strain relief. Off to Auber I went and ordered a 4" liquid RTD. Nice that the RTD wiring disconnects from the sensor as well. That should avoid a repeat of this failure.

One of the same reasons I got the RTDs, they are a little pricey but man are they worth it.
I've been doing a lot of worth atmel AVRs recently and interfacing with different thermo probes. The RTDs stand head and shoulders above the others. Of course it is probably the most difficult to interface as well. go figure.

jkarp, the last time I ordered a few from auber one had a 4 pin connector and the other 2 had a 3 pin. Not sure if that is a standard betweent he different probe sizes. So if you ordered more than one they may not be interchangeable.

 

[ddknight]

If using the RTD sensor probe for the system is it still possible to use the panel mount as I have set up with the Type K thermocouple or would switching to the RTD require additional wiring through the controller and box?

 

[CodeRage]

If using the RTD sensor probe for the system is it still possible to use the panel mount as I have set up with the Type K thermocouple or would switching to the RTD require additional wiring through the controller and box?

Not sure what you have right now but, You want 3 or more wires in an RTD. You could use only 2 but the extra wires help compensate for wire resistance.

 

[ddknight]

I currently am using these:

Liquid tight K type, 4” probe, NPT Thread
Model: TC-K100MMNPT

That probe is wired to this:
Panel mount connector for K thermocouple
Model: TCCON

Setup which is the same JKarp has done I believe and shown in the pics of his setup.

I think I would use the 3 wire RTD which would probably eliminate the possibility of using the panel mount I have now.

 

[CodeRage]

Yeah, that wouldn't work.

This however would, cheaper and looks nicer.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=118&zenid=189b6f645f56eaf62c1dee660f3a07a7

 

[ddknight]

Yeah, I didn't see that before. That would solve that issue I guess. A little modification of the control box should allow that to work once I have to remove the previous connector pins. Thanks!

 

[jkarp]

If using the RTD sensor probe for the system is it still possible to use the panel mount as I have set up with the Type K thermocouple or would switching to the RTD require additional wiring through the controller and box?

Nope, the TC panel mount goes in the scrap bin. The RTD cable disconnects right from the back of the sensor so the cable will be permanently attached to the control box. I'm going to run mine out the back with a grommet to secure. Frees up space on the top to mount a cheapo kitchen timer / buzzer.

 

[Baron ken]

+100! The Class A Pt100 RTDs are accurate to .27F and the Bs are .52F (at 0C).
Type K's as you've seen can be off by several.
The DS1822's are accurate to 1F at 0C
-40 to 125C 1% 10k NTC thermistor can vary by 5F.

RTDs are really the way to go. The are relatively slow to respond but for our needs accuracy is more important.

I got an RTD to go with my PID (both from Auber) but have since bought a BCS-460 and it requires a 10kohm NTC thermistor probe. The one they sell has these specs:
ITP-410K Immersion temperature probe, 10K ohm NTC thermistor input. 4" (10 cm) 304 SS stem and 1/4" NPT brass adapter with compression sleeve for adjustable insertion length. Accuracy of 0.2°C, Operating temperature -40°C to 125°C

Are you saying that the above thermistor could be off by 5F, or would it truly be accurate to 0.36°F (converted to °F)?

 

[CodeRage]

I got an RTD to go with my PID (both from Auber) but have since bought a BCS-460 and it requires a 10kohm NTC thermistor probe. The one they sell has these specs:
ITP-410K Immersion temperature probe, 10K ohm NTC thermistor input. 4" (10 cm) 304 SS stem and 1/4" NPT brass adapter with compression sleeve for adjustable insertion length. Accuracy of 0.2°C, Operating temperature -40°C to 125°C

Are you saying that the above thermistor could be off by 5F, or would it truly be accurate to 0.36°F (converted to °F)?

There are things you can do to improve the accuracy. Like a constant current power supply for probe excitement, using the Steinhart-Hart equation (it looks like the BCS uses this), and a small operating temp span, which they do have. So a 0.2°C accuracy is within reach. Anything higher than that would require a probe by probe calibration.

 

[Baron ken]

There are things you can do to improve the accuracy. Like a constant current power supply for probe excitement, using the Steinhart-Hart equation (it looks like the BCS uses this), and a small operating temp span, which they do have. So a 0.2°C accuracy is within reach. Anything higher than that would require a probe by probe calibration.

Thanks CodeRage, sounds like they are probably more than accurate enough for me, as I would settle for +/-1°F.

 

[JDL]

I am getting ready to construct the BK for this system and have a question about the heating element before I go and purchase all the equipment this weekend.

I have read here and of course my biggest concern is the heating element and electricity and water mixing together. I like the setup and if the seal works and the epoxy you should be 100 percent safe from any electrocution.

Could you explain how you wired it up at all? I am going to buy everything you have listed and want to make sure I understand this step.

Thanks

 

[jkarp]

I am getting ready to construct the BK for this system and have a question about the heating element before I go and purchase all the equipment this weekend.

I have read here and of course my biggest concern is the heating element and electricity and water mixing together. I like the setup and if the seal works and the epoxy you should be 100 percent safe from any electrocution.

Could you explain how you wired it up at all? I am going to buy everything you have listed and want to make sure I understand this step.

Once you see the element, you'll realize how brain-dead simple it is. There's only two screws on the back. Screw the hot (black wire) to one, the neutral (white) to the other, and leave the green loose so you can wedge it between the element and the kettle for the ground. As long as you plug it into an outlet with GFI protection, it doesn't get any safer. If you pot the connection with epoxy (JB Weld), give it a full 24 hours before plugging it in.

 

[hukdizzle]

So I am planning this out to brew in my kitchen with this setup and I was gonna throw this in the thread and see what you guys thought.

I measured my kitchen space out last night that I want to use to brew in last night it measured out to be roughly 6' x 3' 7" that I could utilize and have the sink directly behind me and counter space. What I am going to have to do is get a small table that will fit in the space provided to support all 4 components of the brewing system and my question you guys is this. Lifetime produces a table that is 4' x 2' and is strong enough to support this system with folding legs. It's also has a poly table surface which is very easy to clean, I already have an 8' Lifetime that I use with our 10 gallon system but this of course will not fit in my kitchen.

I took a look at the pictures of the system within this thread and it seems feasible to me that this system will in fact fit easily on a table of this size but not much else would be able to be put on there without causing some crowding. Any experienced input from you guys would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-huK

 

[jkarp]

The counter I brew on (as seen in the pics) is 3 feet by 2 feet and there's room to spare.

 

[jkarp]

Revised control panel with RTD. I took advantage of the real estate freed up from removing the thermocouple panel mount to install a simple kitchen timer. I'm leaving the space to the right open just in case I decide to do something with the PID alarms.

Brewed up a porter yesterday. Didn't notice any significant difference between using the RTD and the old thermocouple. RTD seems just a touch less accurate at high temps as it reads my boil about 4 degrees too low.

 

[ddknight]

Jkarp,
I finally took the system out for my second test drive and so far so good. I kept the thermocouple temp probe and after adjusting the PID controller it's seems to be working fine and in sync with a digital thermometer I tested it with. The only thing I've noticed now is I'm still only getting an efficiency into the boil kettle of about 55-60%. I am guessing I'll have to up my grain bills or something to adjust.

Today I brewed a barleywine with 12.6# 2-row, .6# crystal 120, and .50# crystal 40. Started the mash with 4 gallons of water and then added an additional 2.65 gallons for the circulation. After about 35 minutes of recirc I had a constant temp of 170 so I filled the boil kettle to about 5.2 gallons of wort. The reading I then got from my hydrometer was about 1.055 which is way low from what I wanted or expected it to be. Any thoughts on this from anyone?

 

[ddknight]

Here are some of the pics of the setup that I've got going.

 

[jkarp]

ddknight - that's a huge grainbill! The only way I can get your numbers to work is a 4.5 gal batch with a 60 minute boil but that would make the mash bigger than the 5 gal cooler. Was 1.055 pre or post-boil?

 

[hukdizzle]

Good to hear about the table space, I am stoked I think this is going go work out great. Now all I gotta do is send off my water at this new apartment to ward to see if the water will work out and I will start building the system up!

I do have a question for you guys though. I was thinking about getting a ceramic paver to set the BK on during operation to protect the table. What do you guys use to protect your counter?

 

[jkarp]

I do have a question for you guys though. I was thinking about getting a ceramic paver to set the BK on during operation to protect the table. What do you guys use to protect your counter?

Remember, the kettle is only holding boiling water. If the table can handle boiling water poured on it, you don't need anything. I've got the bottom and sides of my kettle insulated to maximize heat to the wort and even after a multi-hour brew session, the counter underneath is just warm to the touch.

 

[DrinknBuddy]

I was afraid the counter was going to get damaged so I use a piece of tile 12x12. Guess I could try not using it but I have cheap Formica from Lowes.

I also have an issue with my efficiency 53% but was think'n it was the type of beer (wheat). I just did another Amarillo IPA and its full of DME so really have to do an all grain ale to check.
I tried to post a pic of my cramped space but had to settle for a link....
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...authkey=Gv1sRgCIWE0MLKocn4lQE&feat=directlink

I also have started to ferment in the keg. After brewing I just dump wort in the keg and transfer at the end of 2 weeks to my carbing keg with my CO2 tank. Nothing goes to outside air or has a chance to get in infected. I can finally toss my brew buckets. This system is perfect for keg fermenting due to the small batch size.

 

[ddknight]

jkarp,

The grain bill was scaled down from a 5 gallon barleywine recipe using Beersmith. I'm using a 10g cooler for my mash tun instead of a 5g cooler so I've got plenty of space. The pre-boil gravity was estimated to be about 1.080 when I look back at my notes. The actual that I got was around 1.055 or so. I added a couple lbs of dry extract at boil and ended up with an OG of 1.092 which was just a little shy of what I was aiming for. When following the recipe, I did a 90 minute mash at 151 and then a 90 minute boil as well. I started the boil with about 5.25 gallons of wort and boiled it down to about 3.5 gallons that went into the fermenter. Hop schedule was 1.5oz Chinook 60min, .7oz Cascade 30min, .7oz Cascade 20min, .5oz Cascade 0min.

Hope that makes sense. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks again! Either way it was still a good day and I love this system!

 

[Edcculus]

I REALLY like this design. The no sparge aspect is interesting to me also since I've never tried to chase efficiency. I also live in an apartment and really need something that will work well without having to use propane. I've been using a burner, but its technically against policy.


ddKnight just answered part of my question. I was wondering about replacing the mash tun with a 10 gallon cooler. Not to make bigger batches, but for bigger grain bills. I'm assuming when you do a bigger grain bill, you have to reduce the batch size? I like the idea of smaller batches on this system, but I'm not sure I want to go through a 4 hour brew day for 2 gallons of Barleywine. Let me know if I'm way off here.

If I use a 10 gallon mash tun it can fit just about any grain bill and still keep the same batch size. Am I on the right track here?

Also, do you have any thoughts on housing this permanently on some kind of kart or table setup?

 

[jkarp]

ddknight - I'd guess slightly poor conversion and/or measurement errors. Your predicted pre-boil gravity is a bit too high as well:

12.60 lbs. of American Two-row Pale: 37 * 12.6 = 466
0.60 lb. of American Crystal 120L: 33 * 0.6 = 20
0.50 lb. of American Crystal 40L: 34 * 0.5 = 17

503 points / 6.65 gal = 75.6 or 1.076 pre-boil gravity at perfect 100% conversion.

You got 1.055 pre-boil so 55 / 75.6 * 100 = 72.7% conversion efficiency. 6.65 system volume to 5.25 into the kettle is REALLY good - almost too good. To get that would mean zero deadloss and .1 gal/lb absorption. How did the grain look? A poor crush would lead to great runoff but poor conversion.

 

[jkarp]

If I use a 10 gallon mash tun it can fit just about any grain bill and still keep the same batch size. Am I on the right track here?

Correct, but note no-sparge efficiency is directly related to the absorption loss in the grist. Higher gravity means more points "locked up" in the mash after runoff. Here's what a 3.5 gal CB20 system should be able to do:

 

[Edcculus]

ah, ok that makes more sense now. So if I were to use a 10 gallon cooler and use more grain, instead of just maxing out a 5 gallon cooler and collecting less wort, I'd have to adjust for a theoretical maximum efficiency? Just seems like a give and take. Either a few extra pounds of grain for the higher gravity batches, or collect less runoff?

I'm really focusing on lower gravity session beers right now (another plus for this system). Just wanted to figure this out for the occasional barleywine or RIS. I guess in the end, for those beers, you could just mash the maximum you feel comftorable with, then make up the gravity with DME.

I've pretty much decided on this build. I'm moving at the end of the month, and starting a new job. It probably won't get started until late spring. Bear with me. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions!

 

[jkarp]

I guess in the end, for those beers, you could just mash the maximum you feel comftorable with, then make up the gravity with DME.

With a 5 gal cooler, that's exactly what I do. I just did a clone of BrewDog's Hardcore IPA and at 11 lbs, it maxed out my cooler capacity. Still, I got an OG of 1.086 and 74% efficiency, so it wouldn't take much DME to hit big barleywine territory from there.

Barleywines tend to have long boils as well. Longer boil means more water in the system up front, which means lower pre-boil gravity, also improving no-sparge efficiency.

 

[hukdizzle]

Brewed up a porter yesterday. Didn't notice any significant difference between using the RTD and the old thermocouple. RTD seems just a touch less accurate at high temps as it reads my boil about 4 degrees too low.

The RTD is less accurate than the thermocouple? I was always under the impression that the RTD had more exacting tolerances than thermocouples.

 

[CodeRage]

The RTD is less accurate than the thermocouple? I was always under the impression that the RTD had more exacting tolerances than thermocouples.

RTDs are far more accurate than a type K thermocouple. Less prone to temp shifts due to the cold junction reference warming up AND the output is much more linear. you may need to recalibrate your offset.

 

[jkarp]

RTDs are far more accurate than a type K thermocouple. Less prone to temp shifts due to the cold junction reference warming up AND the output is much more linear. you may need to recalibrate your offset.

Of course, I calibrated at 0C, with a lab thermometer, prior to use. Nonetheless, with this PID, the Auber RTD is off at boiling, by a small amount. Certainly nothing to worry about.

 

[ddknight]

Jkarp,

I didn't actually do the math out longhand but that certainly adds up seeing your calculations. I based things on what Beersmith spit out for me. I guess that would make my pre-boil gravity pretty accurate.

I did account for a .1gal/lb absorbtion loss but not sure I know how to accurately figure out dead space lost.

I wanted to stay away from using a bunch of extract and looking at your numbers from the IPA you just did I'll try again and see if I can't do things out longhand as well as in Beersmith to compare numbers and actual data. I have to figure out the deadspace thing too.

Great feedback! Thanks.