Corn Syrup

[hotbeer]

Maybe different brands of corn syrup have different levels of conversion (and sugars), whereas HFCS would be converted more fully.

Do yeast readily ferment "glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides,..."?

It's the oligosaccharides that would probably cause problems.

All the different beer flavors and body depend on the different combinations of all of these types of sugars. Including the oligosaccharides. If all of that were the same, then we'd not be having dry beers and sweeter beers. They'd all be the same in that respect.

Different yeasts will ferment and not ferment to varying extents those same sugars too. So don't let your science get in the way of the craftsmanship you also need to put into your beers.

 

[huckdavidson]

Corn Syrup vs High Fructose Corn Syrup

Regular Corn Syrup has 55% higher saccharides.
High Fructose Corn Syrup has <8% higher saccharides.

Either product would need to be used with enzymes to eliminate the residual sweetness of the higher saccharides.

Or perhaps used in much smaller proportions to malt.

 

[huckdavidson]

All the different beer flavors and body depend on the different combinations of all of these types of sugars. Including the oligosaccharides. If all of that were the same, then we'd not be having dry beers and sweeter beers. They'd all be the same in that respect.

Different yeasts will ferment and not ferment to varying extents those same sugars too. So don't let your science get in the way of the craftsmanship you also need to put into your beers.

I agree with this, perhaps finding the balance for a given beer is key.

The video of the guy above who dumps two pounds of corn syrup into his beer and ferments it with Nottingham has one or more of the following going for him:

1.) Has found a corn syrup without many higher saccharides
2.) Likes a sweeter resulting beer
3.) Knows that the Nottingham yeast will ferment those higher saccharides (not sure if it does or not)
4.) There is enough bittering in the beer to cover the residual sweetness of the corn syrup

 

[mac_1103]

Either product would need to be used with enzymes to eliminate the residual sweetness of the higher saccharides.

"Higher saccharides" isn't much to go on. Could be as small as maltotriose or as big as, well, essentially unprocessed starches.. And of course almost any mash is going to have some higher saccharides too. So do malt extracts (they're generally 75% fermentable). I could be wrong, but ISTM that the whole point of using something like corn syrup is to get the complexity of the unfermentable components. Otherwise, why not just use sugar?

 

[hotbeer]

Getting back more toward the original thoughts for the thread.... Now that you've realized there are differences to even the different types of corn syrup, then just treat them like any other thing you use in your beer. If you want the exact same beer next time, use the exact same ingredients including the brand.

But if you have a recipe and it just says to add sugar, then play with it and try out different sugars and see what you get with each. Keep good notes! You might find something unique and desirable with one that you don't with the other. Same thing if the recipe specifies the sugar but you have a lot of some other sugar on hand that you need to rid yourself of.

That's where the craftsmanship and artistry come through. Once you realize there's a difference, then you can use the science to explain why. Currently you seem to be using the science to keep you from trying different things.

 

[huckdavidson]

"Higher saccharides" isn't much to go on. Could be as small as maltotriose or as big as, well, essentially unprocessed starches.. And of course almost any mash is going to have some higher saccharides too. So do malt extracts (they're generally 75% fermentable). I could be wrong, but ISTM that the whole point of using something like corn syrup is to get the complexity of the unfermentable components. Otherwise, why not just use sugar?

It would stand to reason then that commercial beers using corn syrup rely on these desirable unfermentable components for their signature flavor/taste.

 

[huckdavidson]

Getting back more toward the original thoughts for the thread.... Now that you've realized there are differences to even the different types of corn syrup, then just treat them like any other thing you use in your beer. If you want the exact same beer next time, use the exact same ingredients including the brand.

But if you have a recipe and it just says to add sugar, then play with it and try out different sugars and see what you get with each. Keep good notes! You might find something unique and desirable with one that you don't with the other. Same thing if the recipe specifies the sugar but you have a lot of some other sugar on hand that you need to rid yourself of.

That's where the craftsmanship and artistry come through. Once you realize there's a difference, then you can use the science to explain why. Currently you seem to be using the science to keep you from trying different things.

I agree with this, and wouldn't it be interesting if a beer recipe needed a specific brand of corn syrup, something like Karo Syrup, for a flavor profile that couldn't be gotten elsewhere.

Most commercials breweries it seems have their corn syrup made to specific standards with a certain percentage of glucose, fructose, maltose, etc...

 

[MaxStout]

I was putting together an order tonight for Ritebrew, and cruising the various categories to see if there was anything else I needed. I spotted this, 1lb bags of corn syrup solids.

 

[day_trippr]

Some kind of concoction? Can't be a bag of "normal" dextrose?

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Some kind of concoction? Can't be a bag of "normal" dextrose?

Cheers!

Looks like something you can add if you want to bump ABV w/o thinning the beer.

From the page:
56% Maltose, 16% maltotriose, 8% dextrose, and 20% higher saccharides

 

[day_trippr]

Read that - left me wondering how they could even call it "corn sugar solids" as those numbers don't look anything like a bag of corn sugar...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

left me wondering how they could even call it "corn sugar solids"

They don't; they call it "corn syrup solids."

 

[day_trippr]

My error - but is that a distinction without a difference?
I guess I've always assumed corn sugar was a monosaccharide, and that corn syrup would be as well.
Clearly the assay says otherwise, but again, is this something that is a blend of ingredients, or somehow something naturally occurring?

Cheers!

 

[faithie999]

My error - but is that a distinction without a difference?
I guess I've always assumed corn sugar was a monosaccharide, and that corn syrup would be as well.
Clearly the assay says otherwise, but again, is this something that is a blend of ingredients, or somehow something naturally occurring?

Cheers!

or maybe a purposely incomplete conversion during manufacturing at one or more of the enzyme steps in order to achieve a different flavor profile?

 

[mac_1103]

See #30 and #38.

 

[fluketamer]

that reminds me of the mr beer booster from years ago .

 

[huckdavidson]

I was putting together an order tonight for Ritebrew, and cruising the various categories to see if there was anything else I needed. I spotted this, 1lb bags of corn syrup solids.

Known as "Brewers Crystals" - has a carbohydrate profile similiar (if not equivalent) to corn syrup.

The question with both products, corn syrup and brewers crystals, is how fermentable are those higher saccharides? The spec sheet below indicates 80% fermentable which means the 20% higher saccharides are not fermentable (at least not without additional enzymes).

The next question is what do those higher saccharides add to the finished product? Sweetness, body, mouthfeel etc...?

Brewers Crystals

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/brewers-crystals-55-lb/https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/brewers-crystals-1-lbhttps://www.morebeer.com/products/brewers-crystals.htmlhttps://craftabrew.com/products/brewers-crystals
Brewers Crystals Spec Sheet

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/SPEC-Ingredion-Brewers-Crystals-111217.pdf

 

[mac_1103]

The question with both products, corn syrup and brewers crystals, is how fermentable are those higher saccharides?

For the Brewer's Crystals, I think the answer is not at all. Unless you're using a diastatic yeast. If the definition of higher saccharides for corn syrup also excludes maltotriose, then I would think the answer is the same. And the fermentability of the maltotriose is also going to depend on the yeast strain.

 

[MaxStout]

Since it's intended to prevent thinning out the beer, I would think those higher sugars are unfermentable.

 

[huckdavidson]

For the Brewer's Crystals, I think the answer is not at all. Unless you're using a diastatic yeast. If the definition of higher saccharides for corn syrup also excludes maltotriose, then I would think the answer is the same. And the fermentability of the maltotriose is also going to depend on the yeast strain.

Since it's intended to prevent thinning out the beer, I would think those higher sugars are unfermentable.

Per the spec sheet they're unfermentable.

Choosing a yeast strain that ferments those higher sugars or using an enzyme should help create a more fermentable wort if desired.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=35999.60

 

[huckdavidson]

Having brewed a test beer with corn syrup and no hops, that corn syrup taste sticks with you and is *very* distinguishable from malt taste.

It is definitely not a favorable taste IMHO and has lessened my liking towards these types of beer.

Beers, that I have taste tested in which I can taste the "corn syrup taste" in:

Busch Light - strong corn syrup, no malt taste
Miller Light - light corn syrup taste, light malt taste - almost balanced but still has a corn syrup finish
Coors Light - light corn syrup but a cooling bitter effect in the after taste

Haven't tried other macros but it's most likely present in all or most beers using corn syrup.

It is strange that up until brewing the test beer I wasn't aware of that taste.

Beers brewed with flaked corn don't seem to have that "corn syrup after taste", they are cleaner in the finish.

The BJCP guidelines don't seem to offer any advice on whether that after taste is an off flavor or not (i.e. is it acceptable or a flaw).

One of the keys then for a homebrewer using corn syrup would be hop and malt balance with the corn syrup to hide the "corn syrup taste".

 

[huckdavidson]

After futzing around with raw corn syrup, I've concluded that:

1.) Straight up raw corn syrup requires enzymes (alpha-amylase or glucoamylase) due to the high amount of unfermentables present 50%+. If this is not done the risk of "corn syrup after taste" is very high.
2.) High fructose corn syrup may not require enzymes as it is much more fermentable than regular corn syrup (only 10% or < unfermentables) - low risk of the "corn syrup after taste"
3.) Brewers crystals, depending on the makeup, are generally in the 20% unfermentable range and may not require enzymes - low risk of "corn syrup after taste"
4.) Mash alpha-amylase enzyme additions tend to leave small amounts of unfermentables depending on mash length and average DP of the mash
5.) Fermenter alpha-amylase enzymes additions tend to ferment dry (1.000 or <)
6.) The more time the alpha-amylase enzymes are allowed to work (i.e. chew) the less hops that are required for balance and the lower the carbohydrate profile.
7.) Glucoamylase general always ferments dry vs. normal alpha amylase.
8.) Various yeasts will break down the higher saccharides but most yeast commonly used in adjunct lagers will not

Commercial beers claiming to use corn syrup vary greatly in their "corn syrup after taste".

Some batches/beers (of the same brand) have very little or none of this after taste and some have a strong corn syrup after taste.

This is surprising (or not?) in commercial examples of corn syrup adjunct beers as it indicates, inferior (cheap) ingredients (using a corn syrup with very high unfermentable %), lack of quality control, lack of measurements and a rushed process. The raw corn syrup wasn't allowed to break down enough before or during fermentation.

Generally speaking a homebrewer (especially one using extract) using raw corn syrup will need to use alpha-amylase enzymes in the mash and/or the fermenter to prevent the corn syrup after taste. They will also want to ensure the IBU is enough to carry the load of unfermentable higher sacharides. Adding corn syrup to an all grain mash was not a problem as the mash enzymes and heat kept the mash fluid and acted quickly to break down the corn syrup. High DP malt does help as the unfermentable load increases greatly with raw corn syrup. On an AIO machine (as opposed to a cooler or BIAB), when adding corn syrup directly to the mash it's wise to only add at higher temperatures when the alpha amylase is active to keep the corn syrup fluid and prevent clumping and gumming up the pump.