huckdavidson
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Why don't more homebrewers use corn syrup?
Corn Syrup
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huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Why don't more homebrewers use corn syrup? It's used in some of the best selling beers in the world. It excels at lightening the body of the beer the same as rice.
Brewers Friend lists 350 shared recipes that include corn syrup as an ingredient.
There must be many times that in use by off-line recipes.
You mean, like Karo syrup?
If you want to boost abv and thin the beer, plain old table sugar works great, and is cheap.
If you want to boost abv and thin the beer, plain old table sugar works great, and is cheap.
A topic so important it's posted twice?
"I don't think so, Tim!"
Let's see if we can consolidate them...
Cheers!
"I don't think so, Tim!"
Let's see if we can consolidate them...
Cheers!
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Without the vanilla but yea like Karo syrup.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
350 out of 283680 = 0.001%
That's not a lot and who's to say folks are using it more often "off-line"?
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
A topic so important it's posted twice?
"I don't think so, Tim!"
Let's see if we can consolidate them...
Cheers!
Bug in the forum software. The edit caused the topic to split, not sure why it would lose (or not be able to reference) the PK (primary key) generated for the first thread when edited. (Thread ID 729422 vs 729423)
I see the threads have been merged but now there's two OPs! Lol!
I was not suggesting 'more often' but only greater numbers than listed on that single forum. Probably similar proportions, not greater.
Use all the corn syrup you want.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/corn-syrup-vs-corn-sugar.45717/
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It never occurred to me to use corn syrup (presumably instead of powdered corn sugar) and would at the least have to find out how many fermentation points are in a unit (does one use mass or volume?) to figure out the equivalent use vs CS. Then with that info I could find out if the economics are favorable or not because I have no idea right now...
Cheers!
Cheers!
How are you not going to repost this?!
It's that time of year again, when corn farmers collect corn syrup for hungry consumers...
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I read in Brew Like a Monk that Ommegang Brewing gave up using candi sugar, switched to beet sugar, then to dextrose (corn sugar), without any change in flavor. (p133)
If you can't taste the difference, why pay the difference?
Of course, if you want to impart some complexity, there are many other sugars worth experimenting with: piloncillo, turbinado, jaggery, demerara, invert syrups, etc.
If you can't taste the difference, why pay the difference?
Of course, if you want to impart some complexity, there are many other sugars worth experimenting with: piloncillo, turbinado, jaggery, demerara, invert syrups, etc.
I’ve never been able to find it except Karo which has vanilla in it. I have used corn sugar (the same stuff people use for bottling, usually sold in a 3 lb bag), or regular table sugar. I don’t like candi sugar. People say its the same but I think it does have a “flavor” - after all, they use it commonly in Belgian beers for a reason, and we don’t see it called for in many other recipes - and besides its WAY more expensive.
“Adjuncts” like corn sugar and corn syrup get a bad rep because they were overused and there’s an urban legend that probably comes from the days of cheap beer kits that still persists today saying they make your beer “cidery”. I’m sure we’re all heard that one.
Miller Lite and I think Coors Light use corn syrup - AB tried a character assassination commercial based on that a few years ago with giant barrels of corn syrup being dragged up a mountain and rejected then catapulted out of a medieval village/castle. There were lawsuits and it was deemed misleading because it made people think of high fructose corn syrup which no brewery uses.
I live in eastern PA - most of the corn grown around here gets bought by Hershey and converted into corn syrup or corn sugar to make chocolate.
“Adjuncts” like corn sugar and corn syrup get a bad rep because they were overused and there’s an urban legend that probably comes from the days of cheap beer kits that still persists today saying they make your beer “cidery”. I’m sure we’re all heard that one.
Miller Lite and I think Coors Light use corn syrup - AB tried a character assassination commercial based on that a few years ago with giant barrels of corn syrup being dragged up a mountain and rejected then catapulted out of a medieval village/castle. There were lawsuits and it was deemed misleading because it made people think of high fructose corn syrup which no brewery uses.
I live in eastern PA - most of the corn grown around here gets bought by Hershey and converted into corn syrup or corn sugar to make chocolate.
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Yeah, I think the question is - what does corn syrup do that table sugar or corn sugar would not?
If someone had a reason to argue corn syrup improved the beer or could impart a desirable difference, then I think homebrewers would include it more often.
If someone had a reason to argue corn syrup improved the beer or could impart a desirable difference, then I think homebrewers would include it more often.
To my knowledge, corn syrup and corn sugar are basically glucose which is the most fermentable sugar. This means it's most easy to ferment for the yeast. Table sugar is sucrose which has to be split into one glucose and one fructose. So there's the splitting that needs to be done plus the slightly harder to ferment fructose. So glucose only wins. If you can taste the difference in the final product, probably yes as glucose also triggers other things in the yeast like ester production. This is used for example within the Hermann Verfahren for German wheat beer production which is a way of increasing glucose content of the wort without adding it directly.
Yeah, I meant the difference between syrup versus dry sugar (not table versus corn sugar).
But also as noted in the thread linked above (from 15 years ago), corn syrup is apparently a mix of glucose and fructose, and it is difficult to know/calculate the amount of different sugar content (including "higher sugars" that may not ferment easily).
You can make your own invert sugar.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/made-simple-invert-sugars-jeff-alworths-method.628857/
Another option if you're not interested in DIY, is to find some Lyle's Golden Syrup, which is partially inverted. It's from the UK, and a little expensive in the US. Amazon has it.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/made-simple-invert-sugars-jeff-alworths-method.628857/
Another option if you're not interested in DIY, is to find some Lyle's Golden Syrup, which is partially inverted. It's from the UK, and a little expensive in the US. Amazon has it.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
One reason corn syrup isn't often used by homebrewers is availability.
Corn syrup w/o vanilla added can be had from Amazon but might be harder to find in a local supermarket.
It is also not available from online HB retail stores which favor rice syrup, rice syrup solids and dextrose (dry powder or granular form) instead.
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Barrel-Corn-Syrup-fl/dp/B01C8XCMAM
Corn syrup w/o vanilla added can be had from Amazon but might be harder to find in a local supermarket.
It is also not available from online HB retail stores which favor rice syrup, rice syrup solids and dextrose (dry powder or granular form) instead.
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Barrel-Corn-Syrup-fl/dp/B01C8XCMAM
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
What higher sugars are in corn syrup that don't easily ferment? AFAIK glucose and fructose are 100% fermentable.
GrogNerd
mean old man
AB, out loud: they're BAD for using CORN syrup
also AB, sotto voce: did our RICE syrup get delivered today?
also AB, sotto voce: did our RICE syrup get delivered today?
Just like the above, I've wanted to play with corn syrup but the only type I can find locally includes vanilla (what's up with that anyway?). Heavy and expensive to ship otherwise. I guess that corn sugar + water = corn syrup anyway.
bobtheUKbrewer2
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I made some invert sugar a few days ago, it took about 15 minutes, using white cane sugar.
As far as Invert Sugar goes, I picked up a 3 lb jar of this Invert Sugar at my local shop. As I recall it was maybe $9 (much cheaper without the "free" Amazon shipping). So about 1/3 the price of the Candi Syrup products and 3x the price of just using table sugar. So far I have only used it in a Tripel. https://a.co/d/bxMPFAe
It is annoying how in the US, some syrups are sold by volume and some by weight. I am not exactly sure how that $9 price for 3 lbs of invert sugar translates to that $12 price for 32 fl-oz of Corn Syrup (or if there is a cheaper source of corn syrup without vanilla). At MoreBeer, 5 lbs of Corn Sugar (Dextrose) lists for $13.
Liquid corn syrup would have to have either a price or flavor advantage over corn sugar...but I suspect it just cost more for the same gravity points and does not impact the taste of the beer.
It is annoying how in the US, some syrups are sold by volume and some by weight. I am not exactly sure how that $9 price for 3 lbs of invert sugar translates to that $12 price for 32 fl-oz of Corn Syrup (or if there is a cheaper source of corn syrup without vanilla). At MoreBeer, 5 lbs of Corn Sugar (Dextrose) lists for $13.
Liquid corn syrup would have to have either a price or flavor advantage over corn sugar...but I suspect it just cost more for the same gravity points and does not impact the taste of the beer.
I don't know, contact the poster from the 2007 thread and ask. I was just summarizing the info from the earlier thread. (He did include a link but it's a dead now).
waynetempro
Active Member
Karo corn syrup contains salt and vanilla flavoring. I don’t care for salty beer, so that would be a no for me. However it is fairly simple to just make invert sugar. I prefer to use a little acid blend instead of lemon juice for a neutral flavor.
Derp
Well-Known Member
Your math is off by a factor of 100. It's actually .12%.
huckdavidson
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You're right! Good job. After dividing the result must be multiplied by 100 to get the percent.
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I've used corn syrup. To me and maybe some others, it just falls under the general term sugar. So in some of my posts where I said sugar, that may have been corn syrup, agave syrup, table sugar or most any other common sugar that can be found in the kitchen.
So the lack of specificity doesn't mean corn syrup isn't being used for beer making. For ales and other beers I tend to make, sugar is only used for priming. So what ever sugar is on hand at the moment is what gets used.
So the lack of specificity doesn't mean corn syrup isn't being used for beer making. For ales and other beers I tend to make, sugar is only used for priming. So what ever sugar is on hand at the moment is what gets used.
Maybe it tastes good on waffles?
From the always reliable Wikipedia:
"Corn syrup is a food syrup which is made from the starch of corn (called maize in many countries) and contains varying amounts of sugars: glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides, depending on the grade."
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I used the Kayro syrup. I don't think any vanilla other other stuff in it was significant to alter any tastes or aroma.
huckdavidson
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Must corn syrup then be mashed (don't even try it!) or at least used with amylase in the fermenter? HFCS has already been subjected to enzymatic conversion, is my understanding.
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No, it's already sugar.
huckdavidson
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That's interesting. This video shows the Brewers Best American Cream Ale kit being made with corn syrup, though I'm not sure if it has vanilla.
@ about 3:35.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Maybe different brands of corn syrup have different levels of conversion (and sugars), whereas HFCS would be converted more fully.
Do yeast readily ferment "glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides,..."?
It's the oligosaccharides that would probably cause problems.
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Why don't you make some beer with corn syrup that has no other additives and then make some that has vanilla or what ever it is claimed some have? Remember that Kayro syrup comes in several different styles. Then you'll have something to compare instead of us guessing.
I've used both the light and dark for priming beers at bottling time. As I said earlier, I haven't had the occasion to use if for a main ingredient during the boil. But even when sugars are used for stouts and other beers, sugars aren't a large percentage of the fermentable ingredients. So the other things they bring with them like vanilla are going to be even less significant.
Kayro Light Corn syrup only has some vanilla, no salt.
And their Dark and Pancake syrups don't have enough salt to even be concerned about water chemistry. Which actually salt can make the hops shine more IIRC.
I've used both the light and dark for priming beers at bottling time. As I said earlier, I haven't had the occasion to use if for a main ingredient during the boil. But even when sugars are used for stouts and other beers, sugars aren't a large percentage of the fermentable ingredients. So the other things they bring with them like vanilla are going to be even less significant.
Kayro Light Corn syrup only has some vanilla, no salt.
https://www.karosyrup.com/products/#our-products
And their Dark and Pancake syrups don't have enough salt to even be concerned about water chemistry. Which actually salt can make the hops shine more IIRC.
If Karo has a bit of vanilla and some higher sugars (oligosaccharides) that can result in residual sweetness, then I may try it in a Christmas Snickerdoodle Wit beer I am going to brew next month. If I do, I'll post the results.
Dude, just read the Wikipedia page already. It's basically made by treating corn starch with mash enzymes:
"Currently, corn syrup is obtained through a multi-step bioprocess. First, the enzyme α-amylase is added to a mixture of corn starch and water. α-amylase is secreted by various species of the bacterium genus Bacillus and the enzyme is isolated from the liquid in which the bacteria were grown. The enzyme breaks down the starch into oligosaccharides, which are then broken into glucose molecules by adding the enzyme glucoamylase, known also as "γ-amylase". Glucoamylase is secreted by various species of the fungus Aspergillus; the enzyme is isolated from the liquid in which the fungus is grown. The glucose can then be transformed into fructose by passing the glucose through a column that is loaded with the enzyme D-xylose isomerase, an enzyme that is isolated from the growth medium of any of several bacteria."
The ingredient list and the link you posted both say it does have salt.
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Such are the mysteries of the mind. I saw salt in the other two but not for the light syrup. Now it's obvious!
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