Considering BIAB

[djonesax]

Hi,

I dont brew much anymore because of the time investment. My brew days are a minimum of 6 hours, I have a 3V gas system with pumps and I clean as I go, and measure water the night before. I recently bought a 20 gal kettle because with 90 minute boils I wasn't able to boil all the wort for a 10 gal batch with my 15 gal keggles. I also make cold brew coffee a keg at a time so I have strainer bags and considered trying a BIAB batch since I have the equipment.

It seems to me though that there are some concepts in play with BIAB which contradict the typical 3V system.

1. Circulating the mash to get clearer wort into the kettle and less tannin's
2. Fly sparge slowly for efficiency
3. Mashing out and sparging with 168 degree water to make the sugar more fluid
4. Not creating channels in the grain while sparging

BIAB:
-People are talking about squeezing the bag to gain efficiency, which seems to contract points 1&2. I think I'd rather just add 10% more grain than squeeze the bag.

-All grain brewers used aim for clear wort into the kettle but with BIAB I dont see this as easily possible.

-Sparging is basically non existent

I keep reading brewers saying that you can make the same quality beer with BIAB versus a 3V and it makes me wonder now, if none of that other stuff was ever necessary?

Thanks,

David

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I with none of the stuff is necessary.
I have no recirculation. a simple stir here or there does the trick.
Squeeze the bag but only to get the liquid out not for efficiency
Suck up every bit of trub into the fermenter till it practically looks like mud.

Everything settles out in the fermentor and makes a mighty fine beer.

I'm all for keeping things simple though...I feel no need for things I don't need...in homebrew...just lookin to make good beer as simple as possible

 

[tgolanos]

BIAB:
-People are talking about squeezing the bag to gain efficiency, which seems to contract points 1&2. I think I'd rather just add 10% more grain than squeeze the bag.

Squeezing the bag has to do with both getting your desired efficiency and making sure you're getting all the liquid out of the grains. You can mill much more finely with BIAB, thus leading to water draining more slowly. If you're looking to speed up your brew-day, squeezing can speed up that part of the process.

-All grain brewers used aim for clear wort into the kettle but with BIAB I dont see this as easily possible.

I tend to not worry about clarity in my beers. A good cold break (if you chill), fining agents, and time will still give you a good, clear beer with BIAB.

-Sparging is basically non existent

Can be. I tried doing one full-volume mash, but I missed my numbers by a long-shot. My only guess is my mash pH got skewed, so I went to dunk-sparging. It works for me and only takes another 10-15 minutes.

All-in-all, if you're looking to speed up your brew day, BIAB can be part of that solution. I still average about 4 hours on a brew day, longer if I want to draw it out. You can also look into milling your grains the night before and going no-chill. Those are 2 ways to somewhat lessen the brew day.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

.....and then theres this whole no boil thing thats going around....that would shave an hour off the brew day....still havent gotten there yet ...things sure do change around here

 

[doug293cz]

Hi,

I dont brew much anymore because of the time investment. My brew days are a minimum of 6 hours, I have a 3V gas system with pumps and I clean as I go, and measure water the night before. I recently bought a 20 gal kettle because with 90 minute boils I wasn't able to boil all the wort for a 10 gal batch with my 15 gal keggles. I also make cold brew coffee a keg at a time so I have strainer bags and considered trying a BIAB batch since I have the equipment.

It seems to me though that there are some concepts in play with BIAB which contradict the typical 3V system.

1. Circulating the mash to get clearer wort into the kettle and less tannin's
2. Fly sparge slowly for efficiency
3. Mashing out and sparging with 168 degree water to make the sugar more fluid
4. Not creating channels in the grain while sparging

BIAB:
-People are talking about squeezing the bag to gain efficiency, which seems to contract points 1&2. I think I'd rather just add 10% more grain than squeeze the bag.

-All grain brewers used aim for clear wort into the kettle but with BIAB I dont see this as easily possible.

-Sparging is basically non existent

I keep reading brewers saying that you can make the same quality beer with BIAB versus a 3V and it makes me wonder now, if none of that other stuff was ever necessary?

Thanks,

David

1: Clear wort to the fermenter does not guarantee clear beer, and cloudy wort to the fermenter can create brilliantly clear beer. Have you ever seen what the beer looks like during active fermentation? Nothing clear about it. If your process is good, everything settles out in the end. If you have tannins dissolved in your wort, recirculation won't remove them. Filtering only removes particulates. Controlling mash pH is the way to minimize tannins in the wort.

2: Batch sparging can be almost as efficient as a good fly sparge, and much better than a poorly conducted fly sparge. The nice thing about batch sparge is that run-off rate doesn't matter. You can run off as fast as your system will allow, with no loss of efficiency. The key to a batch sparge is to aggressively stir the sparge water so that the extract concentration is homogenized prior to run off. 5 minutes of vigorous stirring is sufficient.

3: Lower viscosity from mashing out is a red hearing. The viscosity reduction going from 150°F to 170°F is only about 20%. If you do a full volume, no-sparge mash, then your viscosity will be about half, or less, what it is for a 1.25 qt/lb mash. If you sparge, the sparged wort viscosity will be even lower than for a full volume mash. The purpose of mash out is to stop any additional enzyme action that could make the wort too fermentable during a long fly sparge. With batch, or no, sparge, you can start heating the wort during run-off to denature the enzymes. And since batch sparge is quick, additional enzyme action is much less of a concern than for fly sparging. Some brewers see an efficiency increase by doing a mash out, but this is only because saccharification was not complete at the end of the mash. The added time, and higher temps, seen during mash out allow additional saccharification to occur. If saccharification is complete at the end of the mash, then you will not get increased efficiency by mashing out.

4: Channels don't matter when batch (or no) sparging. Channeling only affects fly sparging.

You can easily sparge when doing BIAB. Dunking the bag into a bucket of water is equivalent to batch sparging in a traditional MLT. Pouring water over a suspended bag is analogous to fly sparging. Both dunk and pour-over sparges are done by BIABers.

Remember, consistency is more important than getting the highest efficiency, unless your efficiency is extremely low. More grain can always compensate for lower efficiency if you don't wish to squeeze or sparge to get higher efficiency. There is no right or wrong choice. It's all about what works best for you.

Brew on

 

[McKnuckle]

Let's face it, BIAB is no longer a new or unproven idea. It may be new and untried to an individual brewer, but it is thoroughly vetted by many others over several years now. And many of those folks were formerly 3V brewers.

Of all the pros and cons of BIAB vs. other methods, I cannot think of a single pro or con pertaining to the final product (i.e. the beer itself) that is due to the choice of method. All of the differences are in equipment and process. The beer itself is either good or bad due mostly to your fermentation and cold-side handling techniques! And it's either on target or not stylistically based on your recipe and procedures.

My point is that if you are a good brewer, the method and equipment have no effect on producing good beer. Choose BIAB or 3V based on other factors, such as cost, convenience, ease of use, etc. - not by the quality of beer produced.

 

[Bobby_M]

I BIAB and use whirlfloc in the boil, whirlpool and then drain to my fermenter after a 20 minute settling and my wort into the fermenter is as clean as any 3V brew I've ever done. If someone cannot make award winning beer using BIAB, they are doing something wrong elsewhere.

 

[RM-MN]

-People are talking about squeezing the bag to gain efficiency, which seems to contract points 1&2. I think I'd rather just add 10% more grain than squeeze the bag.

Squeezing the bag is always optional. You can get nearly all the wort out just by hanging the bag of grain over the kettle. That isn't possible in my situation so I remove the bag to another plastic bowl with a colander set inside and squeeze. You do want most of the wort out as any left is wasted potential beer.

-All grain brewers used aim for clear wort into the kettle but with BIAB I dont see this as easily possible.

I'm not sure where this came in but the original point was to return wort to the mash tun until the grain bed was set enough that there wasn't a lot of grain and husk going into the boil pot because of the fear of causing astringency. We now know that that worry was for nothing and a bit of grain and husk will just settle out when fermentation is over.

-Sparging is basically non existent

Sparging is optional. My first couple brews were full volume, no sparge. Then I changed to a smaller pot because of a bad back and even 2 1/2 gallon batches wouldn't quite fit so I started sparging. I often do a triple sparge for more wort volume. That sparging brought my efficiency way up.

squeezing the bag to gain efficiency

Squeezing the bag will get you a small amount of gain in efficiency. Where you really gain efficiency (and reduce conversion time too) is by crushing the grain much finer. Since with BIAB you don't need to worry about forming a filter from the husks and can instead rely on the bag for that, you can crush to near flour. That allows the starch to gelatinize nearly instantly and conversion is then very fast, faster than I ever imagined. Don't let this fast conversion fool you into a very short mash. It takes more time to extract the color and flavor and too short of a mash will get you a light colored, flavorless beer, much like Bud Light.

 

[RM-MN]

.....and then theres this whole no boil thing thats going around....that would shave an hour off the brew day....still havent gotten there yet ...things sure do change around here

I still boil my wort but I shave an hour off anyway by doing a 30 minute mash and 30 minute boil. My conversion is done long before that 30 minutes and with a 30 minute boil I get nearly as much bittering as a full hour. I do need to adjust the amount of wort since I do not boil off as much.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

too short of a mash will get you a light colored, flavorless beer, much like Bud Light.

So thats the secret

 

[djonesax]

Thanks for all the responses. I am going to try a Kolsch that I do every summer as a BIAB and see how it goes. Don't get me wrong I am not one of those worry wort brewers that obsesses over every little thing and also never fully bought into the theories like clear wort into the fermenter. I just found it interesting that a lot of the old ways are being tossed out.

I usually do 90 minute boils because I use a lot of pilsner malt and I have been told it needs a longer boil time to drive off the DMS... @RM-MN said he boils for 30 min and while I don't know his grain bill, now I am wondering if the 90 min boil is a thing of the past as well...

 

[z-bob]

I do 60 minute boils with pilsner malt (the Belgian one) and have never had any DMS that I can detect. I haven't gone shorter than that with pils, because I'm chicken, but I often do 45 minute boils with 2-row or pale ale malt.

 

[RM-MN]

@RM-MN said he boils for 30 min and while I don't know his grain bill, now I am wondering if the 90 min boil is a thing of the past as well...

The nearest LHBS that carries Pilsner malt is 90 miles away and if they are out when I get there the next closest is 120 miles a different direction. I just use brewers malt (1.8L), pale malt, or pale ale malt. Since Pilsner malt can vary between 1.2L and 2.5L I can't see the advantage of special ordering it.

 

[rburrelli]

[QUOTE="djonesax, post: 8500164, member:

I usually do 90 minute boils because I use a lot of pilsner malt and I have been told it needs a longer boil time to drive off the DMS....[/QUOTE]
I think that one has been debunked recently as well. I do Pilsner without DMS issues and boil with the lid on, about 85% on, and remove for last 5 minutes.

 

[doug293cz]

[QUOTE="djonesax, post: 8500164, member:

I usually do 90 minute boils because I use a lot of pilsner malt and I have been told it needs a longer boil time to drive off the DMS..../QUOTE]

I think that one has been debunked recently as well. I do Pilsner without DMS issues and boil with the lid on, about 85% on, and remove for last 5 minutes.

Partially covering the BK while boiling is totally different than shortening the boil. There is very little DMS in the wort initially. DMS is formed during the boil from the thermal decomposition of SMM. At normal boiling temperatures, SMM has a half life around 30 minutes (can't find the ref at the moment), so a half hour boil breaks down about 50% of the SMM, a one hour boil breaks down about 75% of the SMM, and a 90 minute boil about 87.5% of the SMM. DMS boils at about 100°F so it comes off very quickly, and will not condense on the sides or lid of the BK which will be at about 200°F. This is why partially covering the BK doesn't hinder DMS removal. You want to minimize the SMM remaining in the final wort, as there are processes that can convert it to DMS after boiling is finished, and then it will not dissipate.

Brew on

 

[Jag75]

Do you guys refuse your bag ?

 

[LittleRiver]

Do you guys refuse your bag ?

Never. When it calls me I brew with it. ;-)

Yes, the bag gets re-used for years.

 

[balrog]

I re-use the bag. How else can you develop that internationally sought after lovely patina, famed in song and story, sought after by the gods, coveted by the minions and lusted after by all?

 

[z-bob]

Disposable bags from the hardware store can be reused several times -- just keep using it until it gets tears and holes. Even after that it may still have some uses. A better bag like the ones from Wilser filter better because the weave is tighter, and they can be reused many times. IMHO, both have their place.

 

[LittleRiver]

... dont brew much anymore because of the time... brew days are a minimum of 6 hours...a 3V gas system with pumps and I clean as I go, and measure water the night before....

You can easily achieve a sub 4hr brew day with BIAB, especially if you keep things simple (which is the hallmark of the method). That time includes everything from starting to fill the kettle to everything cleaned and put away, with an hour mash and boil, with no prior prep. My times are creeping closer to 3hrs, by doing 45min mashes and boils.

• Grind your grain very fine, a .025" gap on a roller mill works great.
• There's no need to add additional grain to a recipe.
• You can get low 80's brewhouse efficiency without a separate sparge.
• There is always a "sparge" in BIAB, the grains get rinsed when the wort drains out of the bag.
• After mashing, hoist the bag and immediately fire the heat for the boil. Let gravity drain the bag into the kettle during the boil.
• There's no need to squeeze the bag. If you let gravity fully drain the bag there will only be about 1-1.5 cups of liquid left in the grains (not worth the effort of squeezing in my book).
• There's no need to recirculate, unless you enjoy playing with the hardware and cleaning it afterward.
• Put some insulation (sleeping bag, blanket, etc) over the kettle during the mash, that's all you need to maintain stable mash temps.
• There's no need for a mash out.
• There's no need for separate sparge steps, unless you want to bump up your ABV some. I consistently hit or exceed recipe targets without a separate sparge step for beers up to about 6%ABV.
• Clear beer can be made with BIAB.

Here's my last brew. No fining agents were used (no Whirfloc, Irish Moss, gelatin, or other). I did not strain or filter anything (other than the filtering achieved by the bag). The only extra thing I did to enhance clarity was cold crash for a few days at the end of fermentation.

... it makes me wonder now, if none of that other stuff was ever necessary?

The evidence says that homebrewers have been unnecessarily complicating the process for a very long time. There's nothing wrong with that if you like playing with the hardware, automation, etc, but it's certainly not required to make good beer.

 

[RM-MN]

Disposable bags from the hardware store can be reused several times -- just keep using it until it gets tears and holes. Even after that it may still have some uses. A better bag like the ones from Wilser filter better because the weave is tighter, and they can be reused many times. IMHO, both have their place.

I started with a pair of paint strainer bags and one did get a hole in it. I decided that when the second one wore out I would get on of Wilserbrewer's bags to use but this bag doesn't seem to want to tear. I was in a big box store and looked for one gallon bags to use as hop bags but found a package of 3 five gallon strainer bags....for $1.28. I haven't used one for a hop bag yet but I may decide to just stick with those cheap paint strainer bags instead of going to the better ones from Wilserbrewer.

 

[Jag75]

Never. When it calls me I brew with it. ;-)

Yes, the bag gets re-used for years.

Lol , I was like what is this guy thinking .....
Fat thumb texting