Forced BIAB

[Clint Yeastwood]

I broke the kettle out today for the first time in about 16 years. My wife did some tidying up, and it looks like she tidied my Braumeister pump O-ring right into the landfill. A buddy of mine found what may be a match at Ace, but I gave up while waiting. When I went back to brewing earlier this year, I bought a custom bag because I thought I would need BIAB for big beers. I was too lazy to try it until today, when the mother of invention kicked down the door.

I got my strike temperature wrong, so my 144-degree stage started at 149. I stirred it down to 145, and now, with about 20 minutes left, I'm hoping for the best. The kettle is sitting on towels under a cheap Amazon blanket.

I have no intelligent way of getting the wort into the fermenter. Since I have a friend here, we may just muscle it.

I had forgotten how heavy a kettle full of grain and water was.

Dough balls! I hadn't seen once since the Bush administration! Fascinating.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

This must be where I say I was stupid to buy a Braumeister. BIAB is a piece of cake, and cleanup will be a breeze.

Keeping the temperature right will take a little practice, but other than that, this seems really easy.

I remember the old days, suffering with an Igloo cooler with a false bottom. This is nothing like that.

Not sure I can get a big beer in this kettle, but I can get a slightly larger one.

 

[RM-MN]

Keeping the temperature right will take a little practice, but other than that, this seems really easy.

The temperature is only important during conversion of starch to sugar. How long does that take with your setup? Hint: It is probably shorter than you think.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

It's just a matter of doing a couple of brews and getting to know strike temperatures. I used Brewer's Friend's calculator, and I didn't trust it. I believe it was right and I was wrong.

The keg is in the pool, and the yeast will go in after around 90 minutes. I'll dry hop with a sous vide magnet, and life will be wonderful.

 

[alestateyall]

I BIAB and love it. I use this $11 pulley. I just hang the bag over the kettle while I heat to boil. It makes draining so easy. I love it.

https://www.brewinabag.com/products/ratchet-pulley-1-4-metal-150-lbs

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

In terms of effort and mess, this whole business is a joke. I make more of a mess making a pizza. This is wonderful.

 

[day_trippr]

Batch size is...a gallon?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

This is 5 gallons.

 

[day_trippr]

With that pot? Surprised. It looks way too small...

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Well, it covers two burners.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Smoothest brew day ever. The Braumeister was a mistake. Just pitched my Abbaye and used a sous vide magnet to stick 1 ounce of Crystal to the keg lid. Stuck the keg in a fridge at 63, pressurized to about 10 psi. Keg seems to be holding gas. Man, this was great.

The swimming pool chilled the keg more than I wanted. We have had a glorious cool winter, so the pool chills faster than last year. I don't care. I pitched at 56. Bet it works.

 

[McMullan]

The Braumeister is essentially ‘BIAB’ but with a malt pipe and recirculation pump to promote better temperature control. Key to the process is to mill grain at about 1.2mm and mash-in thoroughly (in stages, like when mixing plaster or tile adhesive). Press ‘start’ then go do something more interesting. That’s about it really, apart from lifting the malt pipe, adding hops and chilling the hot wort. It couldn’t be simpler. That’s what it’s about, automation. The results are 100% repeatable, all other things being equal. My 20L Braumeister has been working flawlessly for over 10 years. But it isn’t going to suit everyone. If something doesn’t work for me, I flog it and buy something that does.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I don't call a complicated machine "BIAB" because there is no B, and it creates confusion. A heavy, expensive stainless pipe using 14 parts is not a bag. Nobody thinks of a $3000 contraption when you say "BIAB." BIAB is supposed to be about saving money, not just work. And distinguishing these types of brewing allows forum administrators to create different subforums for them so people with all-in-ones don't have to sift through posts about bags.

I am thinking of getting an Inkbird sous vide machine to regulate temperature and avoid the use of a blanket. Not sure how I'll fit it in the kettle with a custom bag. Maybe I could put it inside the bag with a hop spider. Or maybe I should just improve my insulation.

I have no problems with the Braumeister's function, but the extra work is a bear, and the only benefit is that I get to sit down a little longer sometimes. I guess I get about 7 minutes more chair time per batch, which is way offset by the huge cleaning job.

 

[kevin58]

I don't call a complicated machine "BIAB" because there is no B, and it creates confusion. A heavy, expensive stainless pipe using 14 parts is not a bag. Nobody thinks of a $3000 contraption when you say "BIAB." BIAB is supposed to be about saving money, not just work. And distinguishing these types of brewing allows forum administrators to create different subforums for them so people with all-in-ones don't have to sift through posts about bags.

I am thinking of getting an Inkbird sous vide machine to regulate temperature and avoid the use of a blanket. Not sure how I'll fit it in the kettle with a custom bag. Maybe I could put it inside the bag with a hop spider. Or maybe I should just improve my insulation.

I have no problems with the Braumeister's function, but the extra work is a bear, and the only benefit is that I get to sit down a little longer sometimes. I guess I get about 7 minutes more chair time per batch, which is way offset by the huge cleaning job.

Just because the last B means Basket and not Bag doesn't mean you are not masing and boiling in one vessel. THAT is what the BIAB process is about.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Yet we have separate areas here for BIAB and electric brewing, plus a third for automatic electric brewing.

The Braumeister is VERY different from ordinary BIAB. The differences are huge, and the similarities...well, there is only one. The Braumeister has expensive, complicated electronics. It has an expensive, complicated circulation system. It requires a special outlet. It has a proprietary wifi module and cable. And people who are only familiar with Braumeisters don't have much useful input about BIAB. Virtually nothing transfers.

It's like lumping the Amish in with people who drive Toyotas.

 

[McMullan]

$3000 for a top-notch wort maker that works flawlessly for >10 years currently stands at less than $1 a day where a litre of half-decent beer (from the store) costs more than $12 a day. I don't mind spending 10-15 minutes cleaning it thoroughly every week or two. And 10 years ago it cost me less than $1100 new. I'm struggling to complain about it from a cost point of view. From the hobby side, being so repeatable in its wort-making process, it adds significant value when tweaking other elements of the wider brewing process. It's not just for shining.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

How do you clean it in 15 minutes? I could never manage that. You must be doing something different.

I take the mash pipe out before the boil. Then I clean it in the sink with a sponge and something resembling PBW. That takes between 5 and 10 minutes, right there. There is always crud stuck to it. Then I have to clean the gasket. I have to wash the spent grain off the screens and perforated panels, well enough to get them ready for the dishwasher. I have to put the nut and lifting bar in the dishwasher, along with the tube that holds the pipe down. All that gets me up to nearly 15 minutes.

This doesn't include the 20 minutes the pipe spends draining into the kettle. With a bag, you just plop it on an oven rack and squeeze.

When I'm done boiling, I have to remove the pump, remove the jacket, and clean the kettle. That's a huge pain, and water goes everywhere. Then I have to clean the impeller and make sure the kettle's pipes are clean. That leaves the lid and the tube I use to transfer wort to a fermenter.

Scrubbing the heating element is pretty unpleasant. You have to find a way to get a sponge or a brush in the tiny space between the element and the kettle.

When all this is done, I have to set everything out to dry, so it's cluttering the house until morning. Then I have to pack it all into the machine and lug it into the laundry room for storage. Then I have to plug the dryer back in.

Another thing I'm not crazy about: removing the pipe. You have to have the machine on a high surface in order to drain it into a fermenter, so lifting the pipe using the provided bar means you have to raise your hands WAY up there, close to 7 feet. I stand on a stool, which is not all that safe. And no matter what you do, wort will drip from the pipe as you carry it off. There is no way for me to use this machine without filling a bucket and mopping the kitchen.

Pulling the bag out of the kettle was really easy. Emptying it into the trash was a breeze compared to trying to dump grain from a big rigid pipe. Very little wort got on the floor. A few paper towels got it all.

The automation is really neat, and I like not having dough balls. I like not having to use rice hulls. But I pay a high price for these minor benefits.

 

[huckdavidson]

Delay Timer
PID Mash Temp Control
Recirculation
Boil Temp Control
Pump
Step mashing
Remote control w/ phone app and alarms
Auto mash stepping

The Braumeister's pump pushing wort back up through the mash as opposed to recirculating over the top of a set mash bed is unique and works well with their low oxygen kit.

Machines like the Braumeister and the G40 are worth the price.

A simple one pot BIAB approach like you've discovered does have the advantage of a quick cleanup however you'll also have to deal with:

Uneven mash bed temperatures
No recirculation
No mash temperature control
No pre-heat (delay timer)
No pump to move the wort
No step mashing

We've all done this and it does produce a wort but it might not be as consistent as an automated machine and in some ways is more manual labor.

If you'd like to get most of the benefits of the Braumeister/G40 machines with BIAB checkout custom eBIAB machines or build your own.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabpackagepremium.htm
Obtaining a dolly or a cart and the pump for your Braumeister will make it easier on yourself.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/b...MIhuPGlPTugwMVZE1HAR2g8wPVEAQYAiABEgJmUfD_BwE
There are platform carts:

https://www.northerntool.com/produc...lb-capacity-36in-l-x-24in-w-5in-casters-63771
There are round drum dolly's for garbage cans, etc...

https://www.northerntool.com/produc...ty-drum-dolly-55-gallon-900-lb-capacity-73625

 

[McMullan]

How do you clean it in 15 minutes?

Remove debris and rinse with a hose spray gun. (1-2 minutes)
Pour in about 2L hot PBW solution and wash element, centre rod and wall, etc. with a brush and cloth while the pump is running (on low speed). (5ish minutes)
Have a cup of tea. (5 minutes)
Rinse well a few times with hose spray gun and flush pump pipework by running the pump briefly. (3ish minutes total)
Done. Most of the other stuff used during the day, malt pipe, filters, etc. got cleaned after mash out. All that's left is a hose and immersion chiller.

The 50L takes a bit longer, because it's not so easy to tip out and needs to drain instead.

Edit: I remove the pump impeller after cleaning and just leave it to soak in some of the PBW solution. I don't bother taking off the insulation jacket.

My sophisticated cleaning accessories:

The element takes <1 minute with the old bit of scrubby and toothbrush around fixings.

Still shiny after 10 years. Deep cleaned with SDS and repassivated with hot citric about 3 years ago. Planned to do it yearly, but couldn’t be bothered as it stays shiny.

 

[whoaru99]

My guess is you're cleaning to a degree that others probably are not.

 

[redrocker652002]

Being fairly new and very cheap, I have opted for the BIAB kettle and propane burner (In all honesty, I didn't opt for it, that is what the wife bought me for Xmas one year. LOL). I have a pretty decent handle on the temps during the mash now, not when I first started, but as I learned it got better. I do a quick sparge in a cooler by just transferring the grain to the cooler and pouring the sparge water on top of it let it sit for about 15 mins. Transfer it all back to the pot and start the boil. It isn't perfect and the numbers sometimes a bit off to my Brewfather app, but it is still beer. LOL

Now, with that said, the cleanup of the kettle or pot, whatever you want to call it, is a PITA. It takes me about 20 to 30 mins to scrub all the crap out, and that is usually at the end of a long day of brewing and drinking. LOL. I honestly would love to go electric just for the consistency of temps and to be able to step mash and maybe whirlpool and hop stands. As of now though, the old kettle and propane burner has worked and as I use it I get a bit better each time.

With that being said, I think that whatever you use, if you are comfortable with it, then rock it. In the end, we are all trying to end up in the same place. Good beer and fun times.

 

[whoaru99]

Maybe scrub out is just figure of speech, but I do not scrub out my boil kettle. Yes, I wash it out but I do not scrub it back to like pristine interior condition.

 

[McMullan]

Maybe scrub out is just figure of speech, but I do not scrub out my boil kettle. Yes, I wash it out but I do not scrub it back to like pristine interior condition.

I don’t aim to do that either. I blame the PBW. It seems to stop buildup over time. Our soft water probably helps too.

 

[BrewZer]

The Bag is The Bomb!

Tips from my experience using propane, the Brew Bag*, and a 44-quart pot. Heat 8 gals of water to 162. 12 - 14 pounds of grist (0.025) will drop that to 154. Use a giant whisk to dough-in and avoid dough balls. After the mash, use an overhead pulley to hang the Bag over the pot, then squeeze it like your first girlfriend. After the boil, get a friend to help you decant the wort into your fermenter (or get a pump/hoses). We decant through a sterilized sieve which (a) removes big trub and (b) aerates the wort.

For cleanup, put the Bag in a large plastic bag and turn it inside out, shaking out most of the depleted husks. Rinse the Bag inside out in a couple gallons of water. Run the Bag through the washer with Oxyclean about every 4 uses or so. Air dry the Bag when you're done.

*I like the nylon straps and loops for pulling the bag out of the mash.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Remove debris and rinse with a hose spray gun. (1-2 minutes)
Pour in about 2L hot PBW solution and wash element, centre rod and wall, etc. with a brush and cloth while the pump is running (on low speed). (5ish minutes)
Have a cup of tea. (5 minutes)
Rinse well a few times with hose spray gun and flush pump pipework by running the pump briefly. (3ish minutes total)
Done. Most of the other stuff used during the day, malt pipe, filters, etc. got cleaned after mash out. All that's left is a hose and immersion chiller...

I have to say the whole list looks like more than 15 minutes.

If I were going to use a hose, I'd have to lug the machine out in the yard and bend over to clean it. Maybe it's worth it to reduce the mopping, but probably not, since the malt pipe spills so much sugar solution.

Uneven mash bed temperatures
No recirculation
No mash temperature control
No pre-heat (delay timer)
No pump to move the wort
No step mashing

I don't think the mash temperature varies enough to matter. I don't think constant recirculation matters, since beer comes out fine without it. As for temperature control, I have a stove and a thermometer. Always worked in the past.

I thought I would need a pump, but I used a saucepan, and it took maybe two minutes, so now I would rather not have a pump, even if it were free. When the level in the kettle was low, I picked it up and poured. Didn't have to clean a pump or hoses.

I step-mashed. Just turned the heat back on and stirred. The stove heats the mash very quickly. I actually timed it a while back. It takes 6 minutes to go from 136 to 155. I don't think the Braumeister can beat that.

I don't believe this stuff makes any difference in the product. People win awards with all kinds of equipment. Less work, same product with BIAB. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

If it weren't for the cleaning and parts problems, I'd stick with the Braumeister. It's nice to have everything simplified by technology, and it's fun. If it were easier to clean, I'd stay with it until a part I could not replace broke or disappeared. Speidel's US support is very bad, and little niche companies often have short lives.

I couldn't get a wifi module for it. I don't know if they have restocked yet. Couldn't order an O-ring or a wifi cable. Well, that's not totally true. I found an O-ring at a foreign site for something like $70, so I guess I could pay that and get one in three weeks or so. I forget the actual figure. Speidel kindly sent me a weird proprietary cable from Germany so I was able to fix their faulty firmware. They should have made the unit compatible with ordinary USB cables so people could flash the firmware without a cable they can't buy in the US. The Apple approach is somewhat insulting, and it's a major problem when firmware doesn't work, which happened to everyone who had the firmware I had. If the controller poops out, and Speidel isn't stocking them, I'll have to make one. I don't know how long the original pumps will be available.

It turned out the wifi module, which sells for the startling price of $400, was a bad idea. You can't use it without connecting to Speidel's site, and you have to let them store your recipes. I have a SmartRef that hooks up seamlessly to a phone app, and it will save stuff to my phone. Speidel could have done that, and they could have offered a PC app that worked with a regular cable. What happens if Speidel goes bust? No website. No saved recipes. And how can a wife module cost $400? It kind of reminds me of Festool, if anyone here is familiar with that outfit.

I wonder who is paying $3K for new Braumeisters. I only shelled out $950, including shipping, and in retrospect, it doesn't seem like a very good deal. I would feel awful if I had $3K in it.

I don't discount the fun factor of owning a brewing robot, but I think that varies from person to person.

 

[huckdavidson]

If you're satisfied with the BIAB approach then so be it, nothing wrong with that. As previously mentioned we've all used BIAB or batch sparged with coolers but have found the AIO's solve a lot of nagging issues (like in the list).

AFAIK, Speidel is not a little niche company.

Have you contacted Braumeister's US Distributor - MoreBeer - to ask about parts?

What version of the Braumeister do you have? Will you end up selling it?

The "homebeerbrewery" on YouTube has used Braumeisters for a long time and might be of some help to you.

https://www.youtube.com/@homebeerbrewery

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I don't know if I'll sell it yet. I only had this revelation two days ago.

Speidel says it started in 1912 and is a "medium-size" company. It looks like they make stainless containers and rain barrels.

 

[bwible]

$3000 for a top-notch wort maker that works flawlessly for >10 years currently stands at less than $1 a day where a litre of half-decent beer (from the store) costs more than $12 a day. I don't mind spending 10-15 minutes cleaning it thoroughly every week or two. And 10 years ago it cost me less than $1100 new. I'm struggling to complain about it from a cost point of view. From the hobby side, being so repeatable in its wort-making process, it adds significant value when tweaking other elements of the wider brewing process. It's not just for shining.

I have an Anvil Foundry because I didn’t want to put out the money for a Grainfather, let alone a Braumeister. I looked into them all and if money were no object I’d have bought the Braumeister. I don’t have a 220 line anywhere useable though so I’d also have to get that done and add more to the expense. I think that right there stops people from buying one or the other.

 

[bwible]

I don’t aim to do that either. I blame the PBW. It seems to stop buildup over time. Our soft water probably helps too.

A little Barkeeper’s Friend works magic. Really does the job, doesn’t take that long, stuff comes off pretty easily.

 

[bwible]

The Braumeister is essentially ‘BIAB’

Exactly. The differences are in terms of hardware, but the process is the same.

The Braumeister and the better units have the advantage of controlling your mash temp for you. You don’t have to measure anything with a thermometer and do any calculations. You set your temp or your program on the better systems and go.

At the end of the day you have a pot full of hot water and soaked grains you drain off by pulling out a bag or a basket on both systems. Sidebar: I don’t pull my basket on the Foundry because it mixes all the junk back in I spent an hour recirculating to get rid of and defeats that purpose. I drain my Foundry to my Anvil brewpot and boil stovetop.

And again at the end of the day you have a pot of wort that you either boil in your all in one or on your stovetop or propane burner.

The biggest thing I don’t like about BIAB is the amount of “stuff” left in your wort at the end that recirculating on a different system gets rid of. I tried it a couple times and could not get past the layer of filth that slowly settled into the bottom of my carboy, probably 3” deep on a 3 gallon batch when all was said and done. But I’m a big fan of clear beer, I can’t stand anything hazy.

 

[mac_1103]

The biggest thing I don’t like about BIAB is the amount of “stuff” left in your wort at the end that recirculating on a different system gets rid of. I tried it a couple times and could not get past the layer of filth that slowly settled into the bottom of my carboy, probably 3” deep on a 3 gallon batch when all was said and done. But I’m a big fan of clear beer, I can’t stand anything hazy.

I "filter" the wort through a SS mesh screen and I only get an inch or an inch and a half from a five gallon batch.

 

[bwible]

AFAIK, Speidel is not a little niche company.

Have you contacted Braumeister's US Distributor - MoreBeer - to ask about parts?

What version of the Braumeister do you have? Will you end up selling it?

The "homebeerbrewery" on YouTube has used Braumeisters for a long time and might be of some help to you.

https://www.youtube.com/@homebeerbrewery

I have one Speidel 20L fermenter and I only have that because I got real lucky one day and found it on someone’s trash. They were throwing it away. I went over it and its all there. Soaked in hot PBW, no leaks, etc. I haven’t actually used it yet but it looks like new.

 

[McMullan]

I wonder who is paying $3K for new Braumeisters.

Me

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/braumeister-2021.703199/
The new (2021) model is worth the extra buck, imho. It’s top-notch and won’t depreciate much over time. The upgrades are genuinely thoughtful improvements. Subtle, but very practical without any BS. I don’t think I’d spend 3K on anything else in home brewing, though. It’s only beer.