Confused as ****.

[PapiMauri]

Hi all,

I first tried making cider a couple of years ago, and ended up with too much headspace in the demijohn, which caused its demise.

I am about to give it another try, but am confused by the following:

- How many times does one usually rack?

Last time I juiced my own apples, let the fermentation start in the primary vessel (a large sanitized bucket) for 3 days, then transferred it to a carboy with airlock. Then once fermentation had nearly stopped, racked again to let it age.

Most descriptions I'm finding only mention the primary fermentation and the first racking, then going straight to bottling. Did I add an unnecessary step last time?

Thank you for your help.

 

[Sailingeric]

Let your fermentation be done in the bucket. The CO2 will create a layer and protect the cider, when you are ready for aging, then put in the car boy with very little head space.

 

[passedpawn]

The best way to avoid oxidation and an infection is to leave it in the fermentor until bottling time. Unless you are aging over a 6 months, it'll be OK.

 

[Yooper]

I don't agree with my colleagues on this one. Cider is easily oxidized, and it drops a TON of lees, so it does need to be racked whenever lees are 1/4" thick or more, and if there are any lees at all after 60 days. After at least 60 days in a new vessel, if no new lees drop, the cider can be bottled.

It depends often on the cider source. Some cider has a ton of pulp and sediment, and will take longer to clear, as well as drop lees for a long time. If you're starting with a clear juice, it won't drop as many lees and will clear sooner.

Headspace is the enemy of cider- once fermentation slows or ends, it really needs to be racked to a carboy and topped up to prevent oxidation.

 

[PapiMauri]

I don't agree with my colleagues on this one. Cider is easily oxidized, and it drops a TON of lees, so it does need to be racked whenever lees are 1/4" thick or more, and if there are any lees at all after 60 days. After at least 60 days in a new vessel, if no new lees drop, the cider can be bottled.

It depends often on the cider source. Some cider has a ton of pulp and sediment, and will take longer to clear, as well as drop lees for a long time. If you're starting with a clear juice, it won't drop as many lees and will clear sooner.

Headspace is the enemy of cider- once fermentation slows or ends, it really needs to be racked to a carboy and topped up to prevent oxidation.

Thanks Yooper -- The reason I racked that extra time was because there was still lots of sediment in the carboy (the one following the bucket). I suppose, then, if there is little/no sediment, I don't need to rack again before bottling? Thanks for your help.

 

[Quaker]

I don't agree with my colleagues on this one. Cider is easily oxidized, and it drops a TON of lees, so it does need to be racked whenever lees are 1/4" thick or more, and if there are any lees at all after 60 days. After at least 60 days in a new vessel, if no new lees drop, the cider can be bottled.

I'm not the OP, but thanks for such clear succinct advice. One question: by lees, are you considering only yeast in this or pulp as well. I imagine you could drop 1/4" pulp and yeast daily at the start if the must was a bit thick. Do you start applying your 1/4" guidance after the bulk of primary fermentation is completed?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper -- The reason I racked that extra time was because there was still lots of sediment in the carboy (the one following the bucket). I suppose, then, if there is little/no sediment, I don't need to rack again before bottling? Thanks for your help.

I would give you a definite 'maybe'!

If the cider is completely clear, like read a newspaper through it clear, and it's no longer dropping ANY lees at all, then you could bottle. But if it's hazy and there are still lees, I'd not bottle until it was clear and no lees fell at all for at least 60 days. You'd have a lot less crud in your bottles that way.

What's weird is sometimes cider will throw large fluffy lees, while other times it throws fine lees for ages. I had one batch that cleared in just about a week using S04 yeast- and the cider was fresh pressed and not clear when we started. Here's a photo of that one, from pressing the cider, to the fermenter, then racked, and then the cider in a growler before bottling:

 

[Yooper]

Weird, but they didn't show up in order!

I think you could figure it out, but the first photo is the pressing. Then, it went into the carboy (third picture). Then I tested the SG and racked to growlers. It was totally clear by day 10, but I didn't bottle right then and it did still drop lees.

Often, it will take a couple of rackings and some time to clear. It depends on the yeast strain and the make up of your juice.

 

[passedpawn]

I don't agree with my colleagues on this one. Cider is easily oxidized, and it drops a TON of lees, so it does need to be racked whenever lees are 1/4" thick or more, and if there are any lees at all after 60 days. After at least 60 days in a new vessel, if no new lees drop, the cider can be bottled.

It depends often on the cider source. Some cider has a ton of pulp and sediment, and will take longer to clear, as well as drop lees for a long time. If you're starting with a clear juice, it won't drop as many lees and will clear sooner.

Headspace is the enemy of cider- once fermentation slows or ends, it really needs to be racked to a carboy and topped up to prevent oxidation.

Thanks for that. I thought we were talking about beer. I'll shut up now

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for that. I thought we were talking about beer. I'll shut up now

No need to quiet- we all have valuable input into many things. I treat cider more like wine, while others treat it more like beer. It's all good!

 

[MindenMan]

Yooper you are the woMAN! I have only been at cider making a couple of years, and I have had some clear quickly, and not want to clear at all. For me cider is a lot like beer, two "identical" batches brewed on different days can act very differently. I send all my cider/fruit wine questions to Yooper, and have never been steered wrong. Thanks, Yoop!

 

[PapiMauri]

No need to quiet- we all have valuable input into many things. I treat cider more like wine, while others treat it more like beer. It's all good!

Hi Yooper,
Quick update and question, if you don't mind!

So some details on the cider:
- Sep 5 Added campden tablets
- Sep 7 Added 50g sugar and pitched yeast, gravity at 1045.
- Sep 10 Racked, gravity at 1030.

So basically it's been chilling for two months now. There is some sediment at the bottom, and at the top there is a white grainy layer -- like actual little grains. It looks like yeast, perhaps?

Should I bottle very soon? Is the white grainy layer a problem? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you very much.

 

[Yooper]

I never bottle until my cider is clear. You've got quite a bit of lees there, so if it's been 60 days or so, I'd rack to a new vessel and then let it clear. If it doesn't clear after that, you can stick it in the fridge to get the yeast to drop out and rack off the precipitate.

What's the current SG? It should be done by now, but without knowing that I can't say for sure.

 

[SerifSansSerif]

I rack often. Cider drops a lot, and keeping the bottom of my jugs makes me feel more at ease.

I typically top off with more fresh cider, (despite the "vicious circle" theory, you start out with 5 gallons, lets say, that you are brewing. The lees get taken off of that five gallons, and you add about a quarter to half of a gallon. What's been taken out is typically far more than what is going to be added with that quarter to half. And then, when it drops again, it probably will drop less and less, till it's close to bottle time) If I feel a little uncomfortable wit the sugar levels or alcohol content, I'll toss in some sort of concentrate.

As for when to drink.... Sometimes I've had a cider tank out on me, and I've drank it still hazy. It's not always that bad, and some yeasts are simply better at dropping sediment than others.