Cider Planning Questions

[Baabaad00]

Hello,

I've read quite a bit about the process and am aware of most differences, which is why I am buying 5 gallons of preservative free apple cider UV-pasteurized. I'm planning on taking 2 gallons each and using nottingham with one and safcider with the other to see how they compare. As usual, I'm looking for a sweeter cider. As long as it isn't Apfelwein dry, I'll be happy (still figuring out if I actually like it-it's growing on me). The other gallon will use the wild yeast present. I'm curious to see how it'll go. I've read the cider experimentation post. Please don't direct me to it. I'm more curious about this:

1. Should I use sulfates before I ferment? and after? There seems to be great disparity on this. If I can go without and not result in vinegar a year later, I'd prefer not to. I'm especially curious about the wild fermented one. Will it be okay if I let it be and bottle? I mean; it is UV-past, right? That should kill all bacterial. As long as I don't neglect my sanitation, I'm golden?

2. I plan on tasting the resulting hard cider and see how I like em. If they stop sweet enough, I'll naturally bottle carb it, if not, I'll sulfate/sorbate then backsweeten. What are your thoughts on this approach? Backsweeten with frozen concentrate is most typical?

3. acetobacter needs oxygen to vinegar ferment, so even if there's a tiny bit in once I bottle, it'll be a mostly anaerobic environment, so it'll maybe vinegar ferment it a bit then stop and it'll be mostly contained in the instance that there's some in there, right?

I like to use sulfates as a tool, but to avoid it as much as possible.

 

[ericbw]

1. If you're using commercial yeast, then you should *probably* try to kill the wild yeast first. I use 1 campden tablet per gallon, wait 24 hours, then add yeast.

For the wild yeast, how are you planning to get wild yeast in there? The UV should kill the yeast. The fact that fresh cider from an orchard will often ferment (eventually) shows you that it isn't really effectively pasteurized. You're probably fine once the yeast gets going strong. And any attempt to kill off bacteria is going to harm the yeast, too.

2. It usually ferments very dry. So backsweetening with a small amount of concentrate will sweeten and carb it. But make sure to calculate the amount of sugar needed, and use the grams of sugar per serving to calculate how much is in the concentrate. Am I making sense?

We like to backsweeten with more cider to bring the alcohol down and sweeten it.

3. That sounds right, but it's really hard to say for sure. Yeast in the bottle will also consume the small amount of oxygen when it ferments the sugar as well. (And there WILL be a tiny amount of oxygen, unless you have some way of filling the bottles that eliminates oxygen.)

Odds are that the wild yeast will over power any bacteria as long as the conditions are anaerobic. Keep the fermenter closed.

I'm not familiar with safcider. We've used champagne yeast, wine yeast, US-05, Coopers, Nottingham, and WLP775 (English Cider). I think the WLP775 gives the best result, but it takes some aging to get rid of the sulfur.

Slightly fermented cider is one of the things I love most about fall. Like when you open the jug and it's a little fizzy.

 

[Baabaad00]

Doesn't it normally take a bit of time for the wild yeast to ferment? I was assuming the dry yeast I'm adding would overpower any wild yeast present. I mean I am adding 5g & 11g yeast to 2 gallons of cider. Is that too much? Is too much possible? Is that the primary reason for the campden tablets, the wild yeast at this point?

As for the wild yeast. I'm going to just let it go and see what it does. I'm okay if it takes a while. The one gallon volume is because I am skeptical of it. lol

"Cell Death

UV light, in large quantities over longer periods of time, does kill yeast cells eventually. A 1920 study published in the "Botanical Gazette" noted that yeast does have a threshold after which it dies from overexposure to UV light. This threshold depends on the strength of the UV light source and the time of exposure. The study noted that as little as three minutes' exposure can kill yeast from high UV light strength, while the University of St. Andrews study exposed the yeast to six hours of UV light, which killed 60 percent of the yeast cells. Thus, a balance between UV intensity and exposure time is necessary for the irradiation to yield desired results."

Source

 

[Baabaad00]

2. It usually ferments very dry. So backsweetening with a small amount of concentrate will sweeten and carb it. But make sure to calculate the amount of sugar needed, and use the grams of sugar per serving to calculate how much is in the concentrate. Am I making sense?

We like to backsweeten with more cider to bring the alcohol down and sweeten it.

This is what I am expecting out of at least one of the two dry yeasts. It makes sense. I'm planning on keeping them still if they are dry. I don't want to worry about heat pasteurizing it. I'll just sulfate/sorbate it then backsweeten to taste.

 

[ericbw]

Doesn't it normally take a bit of time for the wild yeast to ferment? I was assuming the dry yeast I'm adding would overpower any wild yeast present. I mean I am adding 5g & 11g yeast to 2 gallons of cider. Is that too much? Is too much possible? Is that the primary reason for the campden tablets, the wild yeast at this point?

As for the wild yeast. I'm going to just let it go and see what it does. I'm okay if it takes a while. The one gallon volume is because I am skeptical of it. lol

"Cell Death

UV light, in large quantities over longer periods of time, does kill yeast cells eventually. A 1920 study published in the "Botanical Gazette" noted that yeast does have a threshold after which it dies from overexposure to UV light. This threshold depends on the strength of the UV light source and the time of exposure. The study noted that as little as three minutes' exposure can kill yeast from high UV light strength, while the University of St. Andrews study exposed the yeast to six hours of UV light, which killed 60 percent of the yeast cells. Thus, a balance between UV intensity and exposure time is necessary for the irradiation to yield desired results."

Source

The dry yeast probably would overpower the other wild yeasts. SO the campden isn't strictly necessary. It does also help as an antioxidant, which is important. For long term aging, most people add campden every other racking, usually racking each month or 2 months to get the cider off the lees. After a year or so, all the yeast drops out. The campden helps to keep the cider from getting oxidized in that case.

In any event, it is not required, if you're trying to avoid sulfates.

That's interesting about UV pasteurization!

 

[Yooper]

Remember that the compound you are talking about is sulfite, not sulfate. Similar spellings, but totally different substances.

You use potassium metabisulfite as an antioxidant during the fermentation and bottling time (also as a preservative and it inhibits wild yeast and microbes initially) but it does not kill yeast or harm wine or ale yeast.

Winemakers tend to try to keep 50 ppm or so of sulfites in the wine as it is a great antioxidant. That's far less than most commercial winemakers.

 

[Maylar]

Pasteurized cider doesn't really need sulfite. You won't likely get wild fermentation with pasteurized juice either.

 

[Baabaad00]

Gottcha. Thankyou for the input. When fermenting cider with the naturally occurring wild yeast, do people typically add sulfites to preserve it. I mean more so than they would for a UV-pasteurized/controlled yeast strain fermentation?

 

[Maylar]

When fermenting with wild yeast we use unpasteurized cider with no preservatives. The recommendation is to use half the normal dosage of potassium metabisulfite to kill undesirable bacteria without harming the natural yeast.

I have had orchard cider start to ferment on its own after about 4 days even with 50 ppm K-meta. I can't say for sure that cold pasteurized (UV) would not do that, but a bit of Googling seems to say that's so.

Post fermentation there'd be no difference.

 

[Baabaad00]

Gottcha. Thank you. For the record, have you found or gotten close to finding the perfect cider, yet?

 

[Maylar]

Nope. But every batch is better than the last, so I think I'm on target for getting there eventually.

 

[Baabaad00]

I got it started this weekend. The notty and safcider are bubbling away. Had a SG of 1.060. I'm happy its that high. I was hearing 1.050 or so. I want a 5% ABV with a bit residual sweetness. Hopefully it'll leave that last 1% potential in sugar. I was lazy and left the empty cartons in the box and threw them away a day later. They smell like alcohol so I'm confident the UV pasteurized apple cider contains wild yeast. We'll see how it turns out.

 

[MarkKF]

Nope. But every batch is better than the last, so I think I'm on target for getting there eventually.

We're gonna have to get together eventually to evaluate our progress.

 

[Baabaad00]

The pasteurized non-preserved 1 gallon left to its own (wild yeast) is fermenting! Got a bit of yeast bubbles/krausen on the top and about a bubble a minute ish goin.

Nope. But every batch is better than the last, so I think I'm on target for getting there eventually.

I'd love to hear about your latest attempts.

 

[Baabaad00]

all went dry. Wild was rino farting a bit, but stopped. Racked it. all around the same FG. 1.004-1.006. The wild one blew off some flavor I think. The safcider has a bit of sourness from the malic acid and IMHO retained the most 'applee' flavor. Notty is good. I think I'd chill them down next time to see what they do. I think they fermented too fast.