Chemistry Noob - Double Check my work?

[Safa]

Hi guys,

Just filled out a Bru'n Water profile in anticipation of a batch of Yoopers Fizzy Yellow Beer, and I was hoping someone could have a quick glance and make sure I havent missed the entire point of this exercise!

Attached is my local water profile (Q1 2014) and screenshots of my spreadsheet!


Thanks to the guys over at Bru'n water, I'll definitely be upgrading to the supporters version once I have this whole thing figured out!

View attachment 2014 Quarter 1 Tap Water Analysis_201401101011577885.pdf

 

[mchrispen]

Safa,

A couple of things jump out - but Yooper should weigh in on her recipe and the profile to use.

1. Very nice water - very jealous
2. You need to make the adjustments toward a target profile, while managing your target mash pH. Try to match "Finished Water Profile" more or less to the "Desired Water Profile." I have a tutorial linked in my signature that might help a bit. The mash pH of 5.9 is just too high, and you have chalk as an additive which is driving that high pH.
3. Make sure to match both volumes between the Water Profile Adjustment page and the Mash Acidification page. Otherwise, you cannot get a 6 gallon batch from a 5 gallon mash and no sparge.
4. You could avoid the lactic acid recommendation below by using roughly 3 ounces of aciduated/sauermaltz in the grist. You will need to adjust that amount based on your actual mash volumes.


Running your numbers, assuming a 5 gallon batch with a rough guess of 3.5 gallon mash and 4 gallon sparge, I can hit a 5.4 mash pH prediction and match the Yellow Balanced profile with:

0.45 grams/gallon gypsum | mash addition, 1.6 grams | sparge addition, 1.8 grams
0.40 grams/gallon calcium chloride | mash addition, 1.4 grams | sparge addition, 1.6 grams
1.4 ml 88% Lactic acid - mash addition only. No sparge acidification necessary

Of course, those amounts will change with the total volume of your mash, sparge and final batch size.

There is no need to use an alkaline adjustment with this recipe - but when you do - please use pickling lime or baking soda rather than chalk.

 

[Safa]

Thanks mchrispen!

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but if I'm doing a no sparge BIAB, do I just add the full 0.45grams/gallon of gypsum and 0.4 grams/gallon of calcium chloride straight to the mash?

I will look for some sauermaltz at the LHBS when I get my stuff as I'd prefer to stay away from the acid if I can, thanks for the suggestion.

Afraid I'm in over my head here, I'll have to get my into some brewing chemistry primers before screwing with all this again.

 

[mchrispen]

Safa, what is your full mash size? Will need that to help calculate.

Do not be afraid of the liquid acid, it is more convenient and accurate than trying to estimate sauermaltz, especially when you can measure the change with a pH meter. If you use lactic, it is the same acid produced by the lactobacillus infection on the sauermaltz.

 

[Safa]

I mash with as much as my pot will hold, about 6 gallons.

I top off the fermenter to reach my target 6 gallon batch size, so accounting for grain absorption and boil off I usually add about a gallon and a half.

 

[mchrispen]

Ok, since the process is to mash in the 6 gallons, and top up, then the amounts change with the very thin mash - although the concentrations remain relatively close to my suggestion. Please verify this in your copy of Bru'n.

You will set the mash volume to 7.5, batch to 6 in the Mash Verification and Water Adjustment tabs.

Then select the "Yellow Balanced" profile.

Add 0.45 grams/gallon Gypsum
Add 0.4 grams/gallon CaCl2
Add 0.4 ml/gallon 88% Lactic or substitute about 6 ounces of acidulated/sauermaltz

That should give you the amounts to add to your mash, and still hit about a 5.4 mash pH.

 

[Safa]

I think that matches up with my copy of bru'n water. Excellent!

This is like witchcraft.

Thanks so much for the help. I promise next time I venture in here I will have done a significant amount of reading.

 

[thadass]

Ok, since the process is to mash in the 6 gallons, and top up, then the amounts change with the very thin mash - although the concentrations remain relatively close to my suggestion. Please verify this in your copy of Bru'n.

You will set the mash volume to 7.5, batch to 6 in the Mash Verification and Water Adjustment tabs.

Can I ask why the mash volume would be 7.5? Shouldn't it be the volume of the water used in mashing (which if I understand correctly here would be ~6 or <6)?

 

[mchrispen]

It didn't make any difference in the pH prediction, but I wanted to account for the top up water in the boil, and getting all of the minerals into the mash.

My thinking might be flawed. I did double check the prediction.

 

[Safa]

Is it possible for PH strips to go bad? I got some at my LHBS just before my brewday and when I tested my mash it read around 4.5ph.

Tap water yields the same reading.

Seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[mchrispen]

Yeah, pH strips are not very reliable. There are some that seem better than others, and you can search here to find them. Some people find them good enough and the right budget fit.

Consider saving for a decent pH meter.

 

[Safa]

Matt: (or anyone?)

New Recipe, New attempt, is there an easier way to get there?

Anyway, doing a milk stout with the following grain bill:
8lb 2 row
1lb black patent
12oz crystal 75

Trying to match a black-balanced profile.
these are the additions I'm aiming for:

0.2 g/g Gypsum
0.1 g/g Epsom Salt
0.16 g/g Canning Salt (can I use table salt, its just straight up NaCl right?)
0.35 g/g Chalk
0.6 ml/g Lactic Acid

Yields a PH of 5.4, and the water profile is a pretty good match. What do you think?

 

[mchrispen]

Hi Safa,

With no additions I am seeing a 5.6 mash pH prediction. So you need acidity not alkalinity - and a milk stout has a sour flavor component.

In this case, unless someone else weighs in - I do not think you need to worry about the calcium level. Just make sure to pitch very healthy yeast or a good starter. Martin and AJ have made some good points lately about calcium guidelines in softer beers.

I never use chalk - and you actually needed acidity and not alkalinity to hit mash pH. It was bringing some potential calcium to the table. Chalk doesn't dissolve well and reacts very slowly in the mash. As for the salt - it should be canning salt, sea salt or kosher salt - make sure there is no iodine present. Iodine is toxic to the yeast.

Give this a try:
0.30 g/gal Gypsum
0.16 g/Gal Salt
0.40 mL/Gal Lactic

You can consider mashing lower than 5.4 - and about 0.65 mL/Gal Lactic will bring your mash pH closer to 5.2. It might balance some of the sweetness if you are adding lactose sugar.

Otherwise - you were using the spreadsheet correctly - matching the Finished Water Profile to the Desired Water Profile is correct. I make it a rule to use alkalinity (pickling lime for me) ONLY when my desired calcium, sulfate and chloride levels drive my mash pH too low.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd leave out the chalk addition. Looks to me like you are adding chalk and then acid to offset the chalk addition.

Running with your grist and water, I'd add 0.3 grams/gal of gypsum and 0.2 grams/gal of calcium chloride. This assumes a 7.5 gallon mash and no sparge (if I understand your previous posts correctly). To bring down the mash pH, I'd add 3 oz if acidulated malt.

You'll end up slightly low on calcium and sodium but not bad overall.

I wouldn't add table salt. It (usually) contains iodine. I find it tastes a little "hot". I have used non-iodized salt and kosher salt. These salts are still not pure sodium chloride as they contain anti-caking agents.


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[Safa]

Thanks guys! Not at the computer right now but I'll check back when I've plugged your numbers in!

Appreciate the help!


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[Safa]

Checked the numbers, all looks good!

Just out of interests sake, when would I not want to match the desired style in the spreadsheet exactly? Your suggested additions put me way below on calcium and at about half desired magnesium, whats the reason behind that?

Thanks again!

 

[mchrispen]

I am thinking that Martin and AJ should chime in on this question as the experts... but here are my two cents.

I think in terms of priority - as such:

1.) Get the mash pH right. Good extraction seems to contribute the best flavors.
2.) Determine what flavor expression you wish for your beer. This can be from research, a style recommendation or personal preference. Bru'n Water profiles are an excellent starting point.
3.) Personally, I focus on ions in this order: sulfate, chloride, calcium - then on magnesium and sodium. Most (in my experience) styles work fine with just sulfate and chloride adjustments, with calcium naturally falling where it may. Other people may have a completely different approach and opinions.
4.) Look again at the predicted mash pH and - if needed - use an alkaline or acid addition to return to a good mash pH.

Martin has pointed out that many excellent beers, especially pale lagers are brewed with very little calcium. There are many benefits to having reasonable calcium levels in the mash (as an enzyme co-factor, protein precipitation, lowering mash pH), but low calcium should not prevent a great beer. My beers have improved a lot by supplementing calcium through gypsum and calcium chloride, but my saisons and wits are brewed with less than 30 ppm calcium typically. I have been pushing up the gypsum a bit lately in my saisons to get a rougher bitterness. A careful focus on pitching very healthy yeast, proper oxygenation and proper fermentation seem far more important than an arbitrary minimum calcium requirement.

Magnesium and sodium are slowly creeping back into my beers at low levels, but I remain cautious in recommending, because a little can go a long way. They are strong flavors to me. I brought in a bit of magnesium (25 ppm) into my last pale ale but cannot tell if it helped the beer or not yet. My opinions should not preclude experimenting with magnesium. You should note that the Primer avoids table salt and Epsom salts.

I think to the heart of the matter, you would only divert from a given style profile (or other recommendations like in Bru'n Water or the Primer) for preferential reasons. If you like a given profile - there is no reason to change from it except to experiment or refine. It seems that personal preferences of sulfates, in particular, can vary widely. If for example, your APA tastes minerally from a high level of sulfate and chloride - then you should dial back the additions.

Hope this helps!

 

[Safa]

Thanks so much for the detailed response! I'm setting up water profiles for all of my regular beers to practice. Its incredible how I thought I knew how to brew, and then I discover this whole new world of stuff I have zero understanding of.

Following your guidelines, I threw together an adjustment for a pliny the elder clone I'm planning. What scares me is that the 'pale ale' profile on bru'n water has me adding huge amounts of gypsum (1.8g/g) and some calcium chloride (0.3g/g) to get anywhere near the sulphate and chloride I need.

I've ignored calcium (its pretty on the money anyway due to gypsum additions) and magnesium and sodium, because the requirements are low anyway, so I'm not too far off with my untreated water.

With so much gypsum and a bunch of CaCl, am I walking a fine line with a strong minerally taste? I guess this is just a huge lack of experience, but I dont want to waste this amount of hops on a bad water set up.

Ps. grain bill is 13lb 2 row, 1lb carapils, 1lb corn sugar, 6 ounces 40L, with my additions above I hit a PH of 5.4.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Safa,

If you are concerned, you can hold back on some of your gypsum additions - just go part way. You can then add small amounts of gypsum directly to your pint of beer to see if you like the effect of the added sulfates.

One thing I've done when experimenting with salt additions is to brew one gallon batches. Yes, it's kind of a pain but that way if you really foul things up or don't like the particular profile you've achieved, you don't have a lot of "bad" beer to get rid of. One thing you need with small batches though are fairly precise measurements as small measurement error aren't very small when brewing a gallon of beer. Once you have dialed in your salts on the small batch, then you know what to add to your full sized batch of your Pliny clone.


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[mchrispen]

Safa,

My experience doesn't show a mineral flavor at the Pale Ale Profile levels - but that said - you might be much more sensitive to sulfates than I. It is really your call. I tried to "sneak" up that level and finally gave in and chucked in all of that salt. I was very happy with the result, and now dial it back a bit to around 250 ppm sulfate. They are guidelines - so interpret as you would like.

Pliny makes some very good points - and you can brew small batches to fine tune the additions. You can make 1 liter solutions to make your additions a bit more precise if you like.

 

[Safa]

Thanks guys, great advice!

 

[Safa]

Hi Guys!

Just moved to a new city far away and haven't been able to get my hands on a decent water profile, so I'm planning on getting some RO water and building from there. Doing an Oatmeal Stout, and was wondering what you thought of the following additions: (Yields a mash PH of 5.5)

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Safa,

I'd skip the chalk - I think you'll have a hard time getting it to dissolve. I just use pickling lime or baking soda if I have to raise pH.

There's so many comments about avoiding chalk in building water that I'm not sure why it's even an option in spreadsheets - probably because it always has been used.

So, my advice is to remove the chalk and adjust your pH with pickling lime or baking soda to get close to your targeted profile.

Good luck!

 

[Safa]

Thanks Pliny! Will do!


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[ajdelange]

There's so many comments about avoiding chalk in building water that I'm not sure why it's even an option in spreadsheets - probably because it always has been used.

It needs to be there. The proper way to build water with 100 mg/L alkalinity and which resembles natural water is to add 100 mg/L chalk and bubble CO2 through it until 44.2 mg/L have dissolved. At this point the pH is 8.3, the hardness is 100 ppm as CaCO3 and the alkalinity 100.9 (close to 100). Few choose to go to the trouble to do this but as this is the way nature works and as you might, if on an authenticity kick, wish to do things this way the spreadsheets need to cover it.

More likely you would add the CaCO3 and use an acid like hydrochloric or sulfuric to dissolve it. Using a strong mineral acid with 100 mg/L CaCO3 (also to pH 8.3) results in the same hardness but about half the alkalinity (51) and, of course, about 1 mEq/L of chloride or sulfate ion.