Water Chemistry Gut Check

[YodaJosh]

Hi all. I'm looking to do water chemistry adjustments for the first time. I've done a bunch of research and want to make sure I have this right.

I'm brewing a 5 gal batch of imperial stout. My target water profile (close to London water) requires a deal more calcium and sodium than my local water offers. I've played with a bunch of different water chem calculators, and all reached the same conclusion: the only way to get my Ca and Na up enough without throwing my sulfates and chlorides all out of whack is to add a bunch of baking soda, and then smaller amount each of Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, canning salt and chalk. This of course raises my mash pH way too high, so according to the calculators, I'll have to add 3 mL of lactic acid (88%) to the mash water and another 1.6 to the sparge (that's 4.6 mL for 10.6 gal total).

Three questions:

1. Does the above sound right/reasonable?
2. Is the amount of lactic acid so much that it will affect the taste of the beer?
3. How do I add the chalk (only need about 1g, but have heard it does not dissolve)

Thanks and cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Many of us have abandoned chalk because it doesn't dissolve, and mostly just drops out without accomplishing what is expected of it. Ca(OH)2 calcium hydroxide gives you abundant calcium and dissolves readily.

I believe this just about pegs "London" water at a quantity of 5 gallons (from a base of distilled water):

1 gram Gypsum
0.25 grams Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), or 0.20 grams if anhydride
1 gram Epsom Salt
1.7 grams table salt (preferably un-iodized)
3.0 grams calcium hydroxide (pickling lime)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Imperial Stout often needs water with a good load of alkalinity. Are you sure you will need to add acid to the mash water?

If you sparge, you shouldn't be adding any alkalinity to your sparge water.

If you are worried about tasting the lactic acid, switch to phosphoric acid.

 

[YodaJosh]

Thanks for the comments. Using your water recipe with my grain bill (which is supposed to end up at around 40 SRM), my mash pH comes out to just over 5.6. The target mash pH for the recipe is 5.4. Should I not care? According to the calculators, I need 2.9 mL of lactic (88%) or 31.5 mL (!) of phosphoric (10%) to bring the mash pH down to 5.4.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks for the comments. Using your water recipe with my grain bill (which is supposed to end up at around 40 SRM), my mash pH comes out to just over 5.6. The target mash pH for the recipe is 5.4. Should I not care? According to the calculators, I need 2.9 mL of lactic (88%) or 31.5 mL (!) of phosphoric (10%) to bring the mash pH down to 5.4.

In my recently revised way of looking at mash pH (see the reason for this in the thread titled "Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH"), 5.6 to 5.65 pH as measured at room temperature is actually the ideal. But if you mash that high in pH, then post all lautering run-off and just pre-boil you must add some acid intended to bring the post boil and cooling Wort down to pH 5.1-5.2 as measured at room temperature. ~3 mL of 88% lactic acid will not likely contribute any noticeable flavor alteration to a 5 gallon batch.

CAUTION: Be careful when handling calcium hydroxide, and wear eye protection when doing so. You don't ever want to chance getting it in your eyes.

PS: When you mention "the calculators" is mine among them?

 

[YodaJosh]

Thanks so much!

 

[YodaJosh]

Sorry, just saw the PS. I used Bru'n, Brewersfriend, and EZWater (though the last doesn't allow for NaCl as an addition)

 

[YodaJosh]

Ok, so I used your software (didn't notice the link in your sig line at first). After playing with a bunch of mineral/water combos, I found the lowest pre-addition mash pH I can achieve for my grain bill and target water profile is 5.77. So is your suggestion that I add acid pre-mash to (hopefully) achieve a mash pH of 5.65 (about 2.6 mL lactic) and then add more acid if necessary pre-boil (using your Kettle pH Made Easy calculator) to get the pre-boil pH down to 5.2?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ok, so I used your software (didn't notice the link in your sig line at first). After playing with a bunch of mineral/water combos, I found the lowest pre-addition mash pH I can achieve for my grain bill and target water profile is 5.77. So is your suggestion that I add acid pre-mash to (hopefully) achieve a mash pH of 5.65 (about 2.6 mL lactic) and then add more acid if necessary pre-boil (using your Kettle pH Made Easy calculator) to get the pre-boil pH down to 5.2?

First, did you make the base malt selector adjustment (via the drop down cell in the lower right on the Mash pH sheet) to dial MME in for your specific base malt? Many new users fail to see and make this critical adjustment.

After that critical adjustment has been made, set the target mash pH on the mash pH sheet to 5.65, and acidify accordingly. Then acidify again pre-boil using Kettle pH Made Easy, targeting 5.15.

Or if you lack a pH meter, target 5.4 pH for the mash and acidify accordingly. Then skip Kettle pH Made Easy, since it requires a Ph meter.

Or lastly, just don't add as much pickling lime. And add more CaCl2 or CaSO4 if/as needed to get to at least 50 ppm calcium within the mash.

 

[YodaJosh]

Thanks again for the help. I did set the base-malt selector (2-row). I have a decent pH meter, and will take room temp gravity and pH measurements pre-boil to determine pre-boil acidification. As to the water profile, I used as much Gypsum, CaCl2 and canning salt as possible to get my Ca and Na up without overshooting my chloride and sulfate targets. After that, I still need a decent amount of pickling lime and baking soda to get to my target calcium and sodium values. Is what it is, though I was able to get a lower pH starting from scratch (distilled) than trying to dilute/amend my local water.

Will let you know (in many months) how it turned out. Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks again for the help. I did set the base-malt selector (2-row). I have a decent pH meter, and will take room temp gravity and pH measurements pre-boil to determine pre-boil acidification. As to the water profile, I used as much Gypsum, CaCl2 and canning salt as possible to get my Ca and Na up without overshooting my chloride and sulfate targets. After that, I still need a decent amount of pickling lime and baking soda to get to my target calcium and sodium values. Is what it is, though I was able to get a lower pH starting from scratch (distilled) than trying to dilute/amend my local water.

Will let you know (in many months) how it turned out. Cheers!

Best wishes for a great Imperial Stout. I really need to get up the nerve to brew an Imperial Stout sometime. As my equipment isn't large enough, it looks like I would need to add 4 Lbs. of DME to boost the likes of an Oatmeal Stout into the Imperial OG/SG range.

The only problem with combining baking soda with pickling lime is that:

NaHCO3 + Ca(OH)2 = CaCO3 + NaOH + H2O

And the CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) precipitates out.

Can you just add more NaCl and Ca(OH)2?

 

[YodaJosh]

I've stretched water profile as far as possible (highest sulfate and chloride I'm willing to go) to avoid any pre-mash acid (lowest possible lime and soda). Do you really think I'll have in issue with precipitation adding the salts below to distilled water?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've stretched water profile as far as possible (highest sulfate and chloride I'm willing to go) to avoid any pre-mash acid (lowest possible lime and soda). Do you really think I'll have in issue with precipitation adding the salts below to distilled water?

How about this rendition. It nearly pegs the 'London' mineralization profile as seen on Brewers Friend to a tee. Mash pH target of 5.55 should be fine. And it avoids the mixing of calcium hydroxide and baking soda.

Add some baking soda and pickling lime to water and you should see the calcium carbonate precipitate clouding it up with a white haze in relatively no time.

PS: Bump yourself up to MME version 7.25. I just posted it to the website yesterday.