Can't trust my yeast.

[DBhomebrew]

SNS. Just stirring it up by hand every now and again when I pass by it.

To start, did you shake the bejeebers out it until you had a jar of foam?

 

[slayer021175666]

To start, did you shake the bejeebers out it until you had a jar of foam?

Yeah, I shook it for about 45 seconds. Right after I put the yeast in it.

 

[w8av]

You should never store yeast in RO water. It will weaken the yeast cell walls and possibly kill a lot of cells. It should be stored in the beer it was harvested from as it is used to that environment. When you are ready to re-pitch it, add some of the beer you are brewing and either put it on a stir plate to rouse the yeast or shake it up in the jar (commonly known as SNS - Shaken Not Stirred).
You can also use some of it and make a new starter the day before brewing to insure that the yeast is till viable.

 

[slayer021175666]

You should never store yeast in RO water. It will weaken the yeast cell walls and possibly kill a lot of cells. It should be stored in the beer it was harvested from as it is used to that environment. When you are ready to re-pitch it, add some of the beer you are brewing and either put it on a stir plate to rouse the yeast or shake it up in the jar (commonly known as SNS - Shaken Not Stirred).
You can also use some of it and make a new starter the day before brewing to insure that the yeast is till viable.

There are lots and lots of arguments for and against storing in water or storing in beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

SNS. Just stirring it up by hand every now and again when I pass by it.

Sorry, that's NOT S-n-S, it's intermittent stirring/swirling. It's a lesser productive starter method, with a high possibility of blow offs when it finally takes off, while you're not looking, such as overnight...

How about using that gallon jug, it would be about half full? Shake it really well, as often as you can, producing lots of foam, after letting air in before shaking?
Just make sure to release the cap after the shaking, to prevent :<boom>: due to pressure build-up.

 

[slayer021175666]

Sorry, that's NOT S-n-S, it's intermittent stirring/swirling. It's a lesser productive starter method, with a high possibility of blow offs when it finally takes off, while you're not looking, such as overnight...

How about using that gallon jug, it would be about half full? Shake it really well, as often as you can, producing lots of foam, after letting air in before shaking?
Just make sure to release the cap after the shaking, to prevent :<boom>: due to pressure build-up.

I thought sns meant shaken, not stirred. Anyway, I'm not using a stir bar and every now and again when I pass it in the hall, I pick up the jug that you mentioned and turn the cap down on it and shake the hell out of it and then loosen the cap a little bit so that it can get air and leave it sitting there. I think, I'm doing exactly what you describe. No?

 

[IslandLizard]

I thought sns meant shaken, not stirred. Anyway, I'm not using a stir bar and every now and again when I pass it in the hall, I pick up the jug that you mentioned and turn the cap down on it and shake the hell out of it and then loosen the cap a little bit so that it can get air and leave it sitting there. I think, I'm doing exactly what you describe. No?

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

 

[slayer021175666]

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

To your credit though, I think I did use the word stirred. I could have said agitate or any other word you can think of so, I can see why you thought that. It's important to use the correct nomenclature in brewing and especially when you're writing stuff in a forum and people can't hear your inflection/tone/etc..

 

[slayer021175666]

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

Island lizard, it finally started going at about 10:00 last night and it's going really strong right now. Do you think, I should smell it and taste it right now and go ahead and Brew if I think it's alright or should I wait for it for ferment out and then try it?

 

[Deadalus]

I've had similar foaming happening, often with Belgian yeasts, but others have too, at times.
I reckon it's still been fermenting a little in cold storage.

They typically show a few signs up front. One being a (slightly) bulging, or hard-to-the-touch (non-depressible) lid. This is due to internal pressure buildup, which you'll hear when releasing the lid/cap. That's your usual tell tale of what's coming next, as you just experienced!

Once the lid is released the pressure drops and little bubble spikes (fountains) start rising up from the bottom. It may develop into heavier foaming, even raising the whole yeast cake, making it ooze over the top. Just wipe it off and proceed as usually. As long as nothing has gone into your yeast, and you've been using good sanitation practices, as usual.

...

I know the thread is sort of past this but just wanted to add an agreeing post. I overbuild my starters and sometimes I would put the banked bottles into storage right after splitting the starter either when pitching at high krausen or after decanting. This would happen and like Balrog I wouldn't want to worry about if it was infected or not so I would dump it on the next starter build when I observed some of these mentioned points. After it happened a few times, I figured out what it likely was--continued fermentation. I agree it's probably fine not to worry about it but instead I just make sure to split the starter and let the portion for banking continue until it is done and the yeast settle out. I would think you would be less inclined to see it from harvesting off a finished batch but perhaps the greater amount of yeast is sufficient to have it continue a little. I also noticed that it tended to happen when I let the yeast get a warmer. My keezer lid has a tight opening so I have to store banked yeast in my ferm fridges and these can get warmer when doing a D-rest or if the power is out and the controller flakes out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Island lizard, it finally started going at about 10:00 last night and it's going really strong right now. Do you think, I should smell it and taste it right now and go ahead and Brew if I think it's alright or should I wait for it for ferment out and then try it?

This S-n-S starter process has been going for 36-some hours, now, yes?

Have you been shaking it every few (2-3) hours? Or were there much longer times in between shakes?

Reason is, the yeast needs oxygen (from fresh air that's being let in) to grow (multiply). What you see now is probably mostly fermentation and she's going to town. So keep shaking until ready to pitch.

I guess you could brew, then pitch the whole actively fermenting starter. When would you pitch that, 8-12 hours from now?

The bigger question is always: Are there going to be enough (active) cells for your 10 gallon 1.056 batch?
You'd be the judge...

 

[slayer021175666]

This S-n-S starter process has been going for 36-some hours, now, yes?

Have you been shaking it every few (2-3) hours? Or were there much longer times in between shakes?

Reason is, the yeast needs oxygen (from fresh air that's being let in) to grow (multiply). What you see now is probably mostly fermentation and she's going to town. So keep shaking until ready to pitch.

I guess you could brew, then pitch the whole actively fermenting starter. When would you pitch that, 8-12 hours from now?

The bigger question is always: Are there going to be enough (active) cells for your 10 gallon 1.056 batch?
You'd be the judge...

I probably shook it more often than every 2 to 3 hours when I was awake. While I slept for 7 hours or so, it didn't get shaken of course.
It's been about 40 hours total at this point.
It takes me anywhere from 5:00 to 7 hours to brew so I would say 5 to 7 hours before I pitch.
I don't have a problem with the cell count. I was just pitching the jar, right out of the refrigerator, into the 10 gallons before and it did have a lag time but, it worked.

 

[DBhomebrew]

SNS starters need to be pitched whole at high krausen. Otherwise, you're missing some of the purported advantages.

 

[slayer021175666]

F#@kin' Hell! I've got 10 gallons of wort sitting here but, I tasted that starter and it tastes sour. At least a little bit sour anyway. Taste just like a less potent version of the exact flavor that I do not want in my hefeweizen! I've had plenty of beer sour on me and I can't put that yeast starter in my beer in good faith. I drained through my kegerator tap until it blew and rinsed out one of my refrigerated kegs with RO water that had some yeast in the bottom of it and I'm letting it warm up on the counter right now. It's probably not near enough cells but, at least it doesn't taste sour. I can't just sit here and let the wort spoil. But, that sour taste bugs me. It also bugs me how long it took the starter to take off. I have another keg sitting here that I could pour off into bottles and do the same thing with it to get the yeast out of the bottom of it. Although, it's been very cold and sitting in the fridge, at least that would be more cells and, At least I know that beer tastes fine and there's nothing wrong with the yeast in the bottom of those kegs. I can't say for SURE that there's anything wrong with the yeast in the starter but, it has that exact taste that I hate. It's only a small amount of that taste but, it is there. I can't bring myself to pour it in and take my chances. I think I'd rather wait on the lag time of the keg yeast.
Thoughts?

 

[IslandLizard]

Crap! Really sad to hear that. I had already forgotten about the sour taste you had mentioned...

You can freeze your wort, to prevent spoilage for a few weeks, likely longer, until you get enough yeast together. But be careful IRT the containers used. Using smaller containers (1/2 - 1 gallon) is better, and don't overfill, it will expand by 10% or more. Do not use kegs or glass for that!

For example, I freeze starter wort (@1.093) in 44 oz cottage cheese containers, and soup stock in 1 - 1.25 gallon plastic containers, similar to those used for cheap ice cream, and fill to only 80% of their volume.

Chilling as close to freezing as you can (in brew buckets) will keep it fine for a few days to week, but err toward the shorter time limits.
When in doubt, reboil (or heat till 150-160F and keep there for 20-30 minutes) then rechill before pitching yeast.

Yeast on the bottom of kegs is usually not the best to use for fermentations. They're the slower flocculators, not the hard workers doing the bulk of conversion, and crash out first.

 

[passedpawn]

F#@kin' Hell! I've got 10 gallons of wort sitting here but, I tasted that starter and it tastes sour. At least a little bit sour anyway. Taste just like a less potent version of the exact flavor that I do not want in my hefeweizen! I've had plenty of beer sour on me and I can't put that yeast starter in my beer in good faith. I drained through my kegerator tap until it blew and rinsed out one of my refrigerated kegs with RO water that had some yeast in the bottom of it and I'm letting it warm up on the counter right now. It's probably not near enough cells but, at least it doesn't taste sour. I can't just sit here and let the wort spoil. But, that sour taste bugs me. It also bugs me how long it took the starter to take off. I have another keg sitting here that I could pour off into bottles and do the same thing with it to get the yeast out of the bottom of it. Although, it's been very cold and sitting in the fridge, at least that would be more cells and, At least I know that beer tastes fine and there's nothing wrong with the yeast in the bottom of those kegs. I can't say for SURE that there's anything wrong with the yeast in the starter but, it has that exact taste that I hate. It's only a small amount of that taste but, it is there. I can't bring myself to pour it in and take my chances. I think I'd rather wait on the lag time of the keg yeast.
Thoughts?

pitch that yeast. You cannot taste a yeast starter and like it.

 

[slayer021175666]

Crap! Really sad to hear that. I had already forgotten about the sour taste you had mentioned...

You can freeze your wort, to prevent spoilage for a few weeks, likely longer, until you get enough yeast together. But be careful IRT the containers used. Using smaller containers (1/2 - 1 gallon) is better, and don't overfill, it will expand by 10% or more. Do not use kegs or glass for that!

For example, I freeze starter wort (@1.093) in 44 oz cottage cheese containers, and soup stock in 1 - 1.25 gallon plastic containers, similar to those used for cheap ice cream, and fill to only 80% of their volume.

Chilling as close to freezing as you can (in brew buckets) will keep it fine for a few days to week, but err toward the shorter time limits.
When in doubt, reboil (or heat till 150-160F and keep there for 20-30 minutes) then rechill before pitching yeast.

Yeast on the bottom of kegs is usually not the best to use for fermentations. They're the slower flocculators, not the hard workers doing the bulk of conversion, and crash out first.

The slower flocculating yeast is what I like. I like a lot of suspended yeast in my beers. Anyway, I'm going to do what I figure is the only way out at this at this point. I have taken the yeast out of both kegs, set it on the counter to warm it up and I'm going to inoculate my wort with them. I've done it before and I must say, it has been a good experience in the past. When you have yeast sitting inside of a keg, every single time that you take a drink off of it, you are testing it whether you mean to or not. I know that yeast has no infection because I'm drinking one of the beers off of it right now. Also, there is no way for anything to get into your keg because there's a constant pressure of inert gas at 10 lb (in my case) being pushed into it. I guess it depends on what somebody wants in their beer. I like lots of suspended yeast in ANY beer that I Brew. And by that I do mean, any beer that I personally Brew. I don't Brew clear beers of any kind. If I want them, I go to the store and get my Heineken or St Pauli girl or pilsner urquell or Stella Artois or whatever. I like yeast in my stouts, I like it in my hefs and I like it in my ipas. I think from here on out, I might just use the yeast out of the bottom of my kegs for the rest of my brewing. I'm just so sick of having lactobacillus or whatever is souring my beers. I don't know if it's the area that I live in or what but I don't know how anybody could be more sanitation conscious than I am especially after all of these soured beers in the last year or so. If inoculating these two 5-gallon fermenters with it turns out to be good, it's the way I'm going to do it for the rest of my life. Unless of course, something else goes bad. At least then, I'll know that it's in my fermenter or spigot or something like that. Not, in the yeast itself.

 

[slayer021175666]

pitch that yeast. You cannot taste a yeast starter and like it.

I hear what you're saying but, once I tasted that sour taste, no way in hell am I going to pitch it. I think that it will turn those beers into the same sour tasting ****.

 

[passedpawn]

I hear what you're saying but, once I tasted that sour taste, no way in hell am I going to pitch it. I think that it will turn those beers into the same sour tasting ****.

you be you. Fermentation is not lovely, it's puberty of our favorite drink. it goes through phases.

 

[slayer021175666]

you be you. Fermentation is not lovely, it's puberty of our favorite drink. it goes through phases.

I thought about maybe inoculating one with the starter and inoculating the other with the yeast out of the kegs. I would hate to find out that it ruined one of them but, at least I'd have the other to drink and I know if the starter was bad or not, for sure. I like to hear what you say and I'd like to not be worried about it but, when I taste that sour taste, it makes me think that the whole batch is going to go bad if I put it in there.

 

[passedpawn]

I thought about maybe inoculating one with the starter and inoculating the other with the yeast out of the kegs. I would hate to find out that it ruined one of them but, at least I'd have the other to drink and I know if the starter was bad or not, for sure. I like to hear what you say and I'd like to not be worried about it but, when I taste that sour taste, it makes me think that the whole batch is going to go bad if I put it in there.

It's just beer. Do your experiment, do what you like, report back here.

 

[DBhomebrew]

What is it about yeast in suspension that you prefer? I find suspended yeast to be rather...sour.

 

[slayer021175666]

It's just beer. Do your experiment, do what you like, report back here.

Yeah. It's just beer, which is very important to me. And, it's the whole day's work and whatever ingredients were put into it and the idea of another soured failure.

 

[IslandLizard]

pitch that yeast. You cannot taste a yeast starter and like it.

Maybe it's an acquired taste, but I always taste my yeast starters (or supernatant after cold crashing) before I pitch or save out. I find that an essential part of my yeast/ fermentation quality control.
I think (or at least hope so) I'm able to spot anything unusual, such a sourness or off-flavors.

When encountering off flavors, occasionally it's OK to pitch. But most often not so, and that yeast also get pitched, onto the compost pile, that is!
I still need to beef up a stir plate so I can easier acid-wash yeast that is a little suspicious.

It's a good habit to only brew if you have (healthy) yeast, ready to pitch. Plan your yeast starters and brew day accordingly.

 

[slayer021175666]

What is it about yeast in suspension that you prefer? I find suspended yeast to be rather...sour.

The first thing that ever got me off of Budweiser was widmere hefeweizen. After that, I fell in love with the idea of cloudy suspended yeast beers. Yeast os damn good for you and as we all know, you don't get near the hangovers off of homemade beer that you do off of commercial beer. I think that the more yeast you have in it the more that you can drink and not have ill effects. Besides that, I just like a nice thick cloudy beer. Just a matter of opinion, I guess.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Indeed. Cheers

 

[slayer021175666]

Maybe it's an acquired taste, but I always taste my yeast starters (or supernatant after cold crashing) before I pitch or save out. I find that an essential part of my yeast/ fermentation quality control.
I think (or at least hope so) I'm able to spot anything unusual, such a sourness or off-flavors.

When encountering off flavors, occasionally it's OK to pitch. But most often not so, and that yeast also get pitched, onto the compost pile, that is!
I still need to beef up a stir plate so I can easier acid-wash yeast that is a little suspicious.

It's a good habit to only brew if you have (healthy) yeast, ready to pitch. Plan your yeast starters and brew day accordingly.

I completely agree. If that starter tastes weird, there is no reason to inoculate your beer with it if you have another route. Besides that, I want to know what a good yeast starter should taste like. If they're supposed to taste like crap, fine. What crap exactly should they taste like? That's what I want to know! I don't want to sit in uncertain wonder or nerd out on a microscope. I think that the best way and the old way was to taste it, smell it and make a determination. I'm not going to put that sour tasting starter in my beer. I'm going to use what's on the bottom of the kegs because right now, it's the only thing that I can do and I know that it works. I've done it before. And, it tastes rusty. Not sour.

 

[IslandLizard]

I thought about maybe inoculating one with the starter

I'd use some of that "sour" smelling/tasting yeast starter to ferment a gallon or half gallon of your wort. Just for kicks, and to prove, or disprove your first impression of the starter being potentially infected. You can keep the remainder in the fridge, just in case it's all good.

The main reason to test it that way, is that we can do that, and should, because it's a hobby, and you can learn much from it.

I must admit, Hefeweizen yeast can be an acquired taste, it certainly is for me.

 

[slayer021175666]

I'd use some of that "sour" smelling/tasting yeast starter to ferment a gallon or half gallon of your wort. Just for kicks, and to prove, or disprove your first impression of the starter being potentially infected. You can keep the remainder in the fridge, just in case it's all good.

The main reason to test it that way, is that we can do that, and should, because it's a hobby, and you can learn much from it.

I must admit, Hefeweizen yeast can be an acquired taste, it certainly is for me.

I like your idea but I really don't have the fridge space to do it and if I did, I'd have to warm it back up to room temperature to pitch the yeast. I don't like the idea of it sitting around with the possibility of some other bug getting in it whether in the fridge or on the counter. I could take a gallon out or something and inoculate it with a little bit of that "sour" yeast starter though, just to tell if my thinking is correct. If it sours the one gallon then, it would have soured the 10 gallons!
It's an American hef like Widmere. It's nothing like the German ones. They're way overbearing to me, as well!

 

[slayer021175666]

I'd use some of that "sour" smelling/tasting yeast starter to ferment a gallon or half gallon of your wort. Just for kicks, and to prove, or disprove your first impression of the starter being potentially infected. You can keep the remainder in the fridge, just in case it's all good.

The main reason to test it that way, is that we can do that, and should, because it's a hobby, and you can learn much from it.

I must admit, Hefeweizen yeast can be an acquired taste, it certainly is for me.

Island lizard,
If I were to do that with a half gallon of it or something, how do you suggest I get it out of the fermenter. Pour it right through the spigot or sanitize a container and dip it out or? Once I close a ball valve, I don't like opening it anymore. I figure that maybe there's a possibility that opening it would introduce some of the germs that are on the outside of the ball (or whatever type of valve you're using. You always have to realize that one side of it is constantly exposed to the air.) back into the inside of the fermenter. You guys probably think that I'm too freaked out about everything but, when you've had as many beers sour as I have, you are one sanitizing freaked out MOFO!

 

[passedpawn]

Maybe it's an acquired taste, but I always taste my yeast starters (or supernatant after cold crashing) before I pitch or save out. I find that an essential part of my yeast/ fermentation quality control.
I think (or at least hope so) I'm able to spot anything unusual, such a sourness or off-flavors.

When encountering off flavors, occasionally it's OK to pitch. But most often not so, and that yeast also get pitched, onto the compost pile, that is!
I still need to beef up a stir plate so I can easier acid-wash yeast that is a little suspicious.

It's a good habit to only brew if you have (healthy) yeast, ready to pitch. Plan your yeast starters and brew day accordingly.

I hope you're not giving this advice in the new brewer forums.

Yeast starters don't ever taste like good beer. Nobody should taste their yeast starter to determine if it's worthy of pitching. Sure, an experienced brewer might detect a problem, but generally it'll taste bad.

 

[slayer021175666]

I hope you're not giving this advice in the new brewer forums.

Yeast starters don't ever taste like good beer. Nobody should taste their yeast starter to determine if it's worthy of pitching. Sure, an experienced brewer might detect a problem, but generally it'll taste bad.

Understandable that it will taste bad. I just don't think that it should taste sour. But, I don't know and neither do you. You don't taste yours and I haven't tasted mine enough. Not trying to argue. Just saying there's some way that the ****ing monks 600 years ago made sure!

 

[IslandLizard]

sanitize a container and dip it out

That's what I recommend. Spigots can easily become bug traps.

Preferably use a glass/Pyrex measuring cup, if you have one.
Sanitize the lid closure area well before opening. Sanitize hands and wrists before dipping the measuring cup (not your hands) into the wort. Re-sanitize lid and rim again before closing it up.

 

[IslandLizard]

You guys probably think that I'm too freaked out about everything but, when you've had as many beers sour as I have, you are one sanitizing freaked out MOFO!

That many, ouch!
Something is being missed. What sanitizer are you using?

 

[slayer021175666]

That's what I recommend. Spigots can easily become bug traps.

Preferably use a glass/Pyrex measuring cup, if you have one.
Sanitize the lid closure area well before opening. Sanitize hands and wrists before dipping the measuring cup (not your hands) into the wort. Re-sanitize lid and rim again before closing it up.

Looks like, we agree on many things. Tasting your damn Yeast starters and not opening spigots after they're closed on your fermenter, to name a couple.
And, I think that after enough tasting them, I'll become good at knowing what they should taste like whether, it's bad tasting or not. Like the ones out of The keg which I know for positive SURE, are good, they taste a little bit Rusty. I will take Rusty over sour, any day!

 

[slayer021175666]

That many, ouch!
Something is being missed. What sanitizer are you using?

Star san. In copious quantities!

 

[IslandLizard]

Like the ones [yeast] out of The keg which I know for positive SURE, are good, they taste a little bit Rusty.

I hope there's no rust in your kegs.

There could be some yeast autolysis going on, mixed with fine, trub, and other beer components (e.g., hop dust) that settled out in the (cold) keg.
Marmite flavors come to mind (which contains much autolyzed yeast).

You should see what can drop out of already clear Lagers after 4 weeks at 34-36°F.

 

[slayer021175666]

I hope there's no rust in your kegs.

There could be some yeast autolysis going on, mixed with fine, trub, and other beer components (e.g., hop dust) that settled out in the (cold) keg.
Marmite flavors come to mind (which contains much autolyzed yeast).

You should see what can drop out of already clear Lagers after 4 weeks at 34-36°F.

I don't think there's any actual rust in my stainless steel corny kegs. I think it's the autolysis that you mentioned. Still, its a lot more trustable than a sour tasting yeast starter.
And yes, I was surprised to see what's actually floating around in the yeast that I poured out of the kegs after drinking such a nice beer off of them. I didn't realize there'd be that much trub in it when I use a hop strainer and vorlauf and all.
That trub's getting dumped in too, though! I'm not going to try to rinse that little amount of yeast. It made about the same inch or so only, this time, in a quart jar. Not, a pint jar.

 

[IslandLizard]

That trub's getting dumped in too, though!

You don't have much choice, it's probably like dust, hard to filter out. It will be fine, even with a little trub. And having a little trub offers nourishment to the yeast, don't forget.

I'm not going to try to rinse that little amount of yeast.

Good choice! When rinsing yeast you stand to lose half the yeast with it, easily.