Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[Hammy71]

I haven't a clue. Going on almost 4 years and I've always used my tap water, sometimes mixed with RO. Never been an issue. While it's true it could/will have an impact, it seems no one has really 'cloned' this thing yet, so I doubt my water is the culprit. There is something just missing from the 90/10 malt recipe. I'm sure the water will make a 'difference', but it's something bigger than that.

 

[CastleBlack]

I haven't a clue. Going on almost 4 years and I've always used my tap water, sometimes mixed with RO. Never been an issue. While it's true it could/will have an impact, it seems no one has really 'cloned' this thing yet, so I doubt my water is the culprit. There is something just missing from the 90/10 malt recipe. I'm sure the water will make a 'difference', but it's something bigger than that.

Hammy I think you are right about the missing ingredient. Surely the hops are not it. This sound like a Chinook single hop brew. You can pick the pine notes up right off the bat. Could it then be Roasted Barley or something in that family like Black Patent or even Carafa III?

Only one way to find out...

Happy brewing Everybody and have a lot of fun cloning this one, I know I do!

 

[CastleBlack]

Tried the A.B over dinner again. Definitely getting that sweet, raisin like taste, a lot of Chinook but its no A.B.

Gotta keep trying I guess.

Happy brewing every one.

 

[heliumbro]

CastleBlack,

I'm wondering if it's some kind of heavily kilned malt as well. Like balancing that small amount roasted barley in an Irish Red. It may not be in the Stone recipe, but it tastes like there is a bitter/roasty ... 'something'... that's just missing from the clone. I think for the next batch I'm going to add a very small percentage of roasted barley or pale chocolate to play around.

 

[CastleBlack]

CastleBlack,

I'm wondering if it's some kind of heavily kilned malt as well. Like balancing that small amount roasted barley in an Irish Red. It may not be in the Stone recipe, but it tastes like there is a bitter/roasty ... 'something'... that's just missing from the clone. I think for the next batch I'm going to add a very small percentage of roasted barley or pale chocolate to play around.

Helium,
that was my mind as well. I am picking up that roastyness too. I am not certain if it is roasted barley though. To me roasted barley even in small quantities (1/8 th LB, for example) has a well defined signature. Yet, the brew does have "darkness". I was thinking something in the order of Carafa II or perhaps even III. That or something like debittered black (for this one I am a bit hesitant, not getting much roastyness from it in general).

 

[socalhomebrewer]

I just brewed 2 versions of the arrogant bastard. I listed to the TBN podcast of the second try. I bumped up the specialty malt to 11% and used the C-150 for the specialty malt. I used the 85, 45, 15, 1 minute additions but I used one version with all Nelson and a second version I used chinook for 85 & 45 and then used Nelson at 15 & 1 additions. I used the chinook on one of these because a fellow brewers told me that they felt the Nelson as a bittering hop was as sharp of a bitter as chinook. We will see.

 

[heliumbro]

I've been rereading the craft of stone brewing. Now the story goes that Arrogant was created as an accident when they were scaling Stone Pale Ale into a new brewing system. Though the exact story of realizing the error differs, they calculated wrong and ended up using too much grain and hops. Now recommended Stone Pale Ale clones are made with 2Row, C-60 and C-75 with Columbus and Ahtanum. I plugged it into beersmith and messed with proportions, and it seems like those ingredients can craft a similar beer to SAB... on paper... in theory... I'm wondering if this is just another piece of disinformation put out by Stone, or if they have tweaked the truth of the story just slightly to not let on to what is in it...
This clone recipe is turning into a homebrew version of the Kryptos Sculpture!

 

[socalhomebrewer]

I wouldn't doubt that Is how it started, but the problem is all they story's have the common denominator of it was an accident in the BEGINNING. There has not been many clues as to what has happens with this beer from inception of the beer to what is on shelves now.

In my opinion......I am a firm believer that the current beer has been messed with since the early stone years IPA recipe, but I think the recipe is still simple as ever and has something to do with process that is not easy to duplicate at the home brew level. But in the end i think this is a simple grain an hop bill and why it earned the name arrogant bastard. Thing that sucks is they will not say a word about the beer except that they bottle and sell it

 

[CastleBlack]

I wouldn't doubt that Is how it started, but the problem is all they story's have the common denominator of it was an accident in the BEGINNING. There has not been many clues as to what has happens with this beer from inception of the beer to what is on shelves now.

In my opinion......I am a firm believer that the current beer has been messed with since the early stone years IPA recipe, but I think the recipe is still simple as ever and has something to do with process that is not easy to duplicate at the home brew level. But in the end i think this is a simple grain an hop bill and why it earned the name arrogant bastard. Thing that sucks is they will not say a word about the beer except that they bottle and sell it

I think this is the closest thing to the truth. A.B cannot just have C-60 & 75, its gotta be much darker than that, roasted even as we said before. In my mind the closest thing I have sampled to the A.B is something like a "Big" Irish Red, not an American Amber. Also, columbus hops wont do it for me. I am not getting that "spice" note that we usually get from Columbus, I am near certain it is Chinook but I havent tried the Nelson hops so far. In my mind it is as you said, incredibly simple: Single Hop and Single specialty malt. C-150 sounds so promising. I cant wait to experiment with it.

Happy brewing to you all.

 

[afr0byte]

I think this is the closest thing to the truth. A.B cannot just have C-60 & 75, its gotta be much darker than that, roasted even as we said before. In my mind the closest thing I have sampled to the A.B is something like a "Big" Irish Red, not an American Amber. Also, columbus hops wont do it for me. I am not getting that "spice" note that we usually get from Columbus, I am near certain it is Chinook but I havent tried the Nelson hops so far. In my mind it is as you said, incredibly simple: Single Hop and Single specialty malt. C-150 sounds so promising. I cant wait to experiment with it.

Happy brewing to you all.

I'd have to agree and disagree on the Irish Red comment. Sure, it definitely has the dark cyrstal flavors, but I don't personally taste roasted barley. I think dark crystals can have a burnt, almost roast, flavor. As far as the hops...and I know you didn't say this...but I doubt it's Nelson Suavin, as they weren't released until 2000. I agree that it's most likely Chinook.

 

[CastleBlack]

I'd have to agree and disagree on the Irish Red comment. Sure, it definitely has the dark cyrstal flavors, but I don't personally taste roasted barley. I think dark crystals can have a burnt, almost roast, flavor. As far as the hops...and I know you didn't say this...but I doubt it's Nelson Suavin, as they weren't released until 2000. I agree that it's most likely Chinook.

Yup I think you are right mate. Chinook for the hops and something dark but not Roasted Barley. C-150 was very promising but I am getting a lot of No's on that. Hmm perhaps Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal and I should make that one first before the C-150 or Special B Hybrid.

Happy brewing to ya all and enjoy the fine weather coming our way, Spring is upon us.

 

[Hammy71]

Just tapped my latest version.

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes.

Upped the OG to 1.072 and used WLP002 to get the beer down to 1.018 (which is where AB really is.)

Verdict:

Bitterness fom the hops. I'm happy with that.

Color....it's close, maybe a little too red for my eyes.

Taste, well it's ok but not arrogant bastard. Just like the 150C version I did, I think the 10% Special B is too much. The flavor from the malt isn't right. What I feel is missing is some residual bitterness that isn't from the hops. I like the suggestion that was made a page or two ago. Next round will be 2-row, maybe 5% 150C, and a small amount of roasted barley. This should add that bitterness I'm looking for plus the color that I want without dealing with the malty aftertaste that too much 150 or Special B delivers.

At least they are tasty failures!! :rockin:

Time to revisit. Took a sample to the local bar. Wasn't the same as AB on tap. Me and a friend tried a comparison to the bottled version today (22oz). Wow. Dead on. Color, smell, taste. Maybe mine was a little more bitter, but who knows how old the bottle was. So, for me, the verdict is in.

If you like AB in the bottle. Follow the recipe above. I especially reccomend the 002 yeast instead of the 007. Also raise the grain bill to 1.072 for an OG, so the beer will finish around 1.018. If you like it on tap... I dunno. Not sure why there is such a massive difference. Maybe they pasturize the bottles, but not the kegs?

 

[rockfish42]

Hammy what was your mash temp?

 

[Hammy71]

148F for 90 minutes. (Not that the 90 really matters. But for such a low temp, I like to do longer mashes.)


EDIT. After going through my notes: It was 150F fror 90 minutes. Sorry...

 

[CastleBlack]

Time to revisit. Took a sample to the local bar. Wasn't the same as AB on tap. Me and a friend tried a comparison to the bottled version today (22oz). Wow. Dead on. Color, smell, taste. Maybe mine was a little more bitter, but who knows how old the bottle was. So, for me, the verdict is in.

If you like AB in the bottle. Follow the recipe above. I especially reccomend the 002 yeast instead of the 007. Also raise the grain bill to 1.072 for an OG, so the beer will finish around 1.018. If you like it on tap... I dunno. Not sure why there is such a massive difference. Maybe they pasturize the bottles, but not the kegs?

Love this experiment you did. But this means back to drawing board for me!

Hmm... single specialty and single hop, just as A.B should be.

Gotta make the three little bastards. First one is special B.

 

[ultravista]

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

Mash at 148F for 90 minutes

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes

Ferment with WLP002

So is that 1.2oz at 85, 1.2oz at 45, 1.2oz at 15, and 1.2oz at flameout?

4.8 ounces of hops?

 

[Hammy71]

Yes, pellet @ 11.8% And as I changed above. 150F for 90 minutes for the mash.

 

[ultravista]

I though Mitch stated the specialty malt wasn't Special B but another high numbered crystal. How similar are the two?

 

[GRBC]

I though Mitch stated the specialty malt wasn't Special B but another high numbered crystal. How similar are the two?

Maybe briess extra special malt? I use it in a brown ale that I love. It's a dark crystal malt at 130 srm.

 

[ultravista]

Wow - 1.2oz at 85, 45, 15 and flameout gives me 142 IBU in Beersmith 2.0.

 

[Hammy71]

I use BS number one with Tinseth for my IBUs. Says 93.5 You need a lot of bitterness to get through all that dark malt. Otherwise, within a couple of weeks...it's all gone and your left with a very malty beer. Are you sure you entered a 6 gallon batch and not 5?

 

[SourHopHead]

Doubled it for a 12gal batch in BS2 and get 97.5 IBU's 11.8% AA.

 

[CastleBlack]

Doubled it for a 12gal batch in BS2 and get 97.5 IBU's 11.8% AA.

I too think A.B is more in the higher IBUs than we have been makin it.

My last attempt was 76 IBUs and though a great brew, it was no A.B.

My next attempt(s) are gonna include one more hop addition: 90, 60, 30, 15, 0 & dry hop. All equal quantities and all Chinook for about 100 IBUs total.

Cant wait for my mill to arrive, after that I am doing the three little bastards all in the higher IBUs. The only way to know if C-150, Special B or Extra Dark Crystal is the winner.

Happy brewing to ya all.

 

[SourHopHead]

I too think A.B is more in the higher IBUs than we have been makin it.

My last attempt was 76 IBUs and though a great brew, it was no A.B.

My next attempt(s) are gonna include one more hop addition: 90, 60, 30, 15, 0 & dry hop. All equal quantities and all Chinook for about 100 IBUs total.

Cant wait for my mill to arrive, after that I am doing the three little bastards all in the higher IBUs. The only way to know if C-150, Special B or Extra Dark Crystal is the winner.

Happy brewing to ya all.

I agree. I am shooting for 140-160 IBU's.

 

[CastleBlack]

I agree. I am shooting for 140-160 IBU's.

God bless you and your hoppyness, you give justice to the term "hopHead".

I admit 140 IBUs may be a bit out of my range for this clone but is very well received as an idea. I am curious to see how it goes. Please do post any taste test.

Happy brewing to ya and keep it Hoppy!

 

[socalhomebrewer]

I agree. I am shooting for 140-160 IBU's.

Do you have a under hopped version to compare the super hoped an the real one to? Be iteresting to see how close to both spectrums the real one is and might help to dial in the real IBU

 

[Hammy71]

I think 90-100ish will give you what you want. 140-160 won't be AB. But if your a real hop head...go for it.

 

[CastleBlack]

Im with hammy on this one, notwithstanding, wanting to see how the 140 version come out.

That said, the three little bastards projects are all 105.7 IBUs (to be exact).

Looking forward to your versions as well. Please keep those clones comin.

Happy brewing to ya, and it aint A.B unless its bold!

 

[ultravista]

Looking for feedback on the yeast.

I've got a lot of Pacman stocked away from yeast washing. It appears that the two yeasts are similiar.

Would my choice in Pacman signifigantly impact the flavor of the AB clone?

WLP007
Clean, highly flocculent, and highly attenuative yeast. This yeast is similar to WLP002 in flavor profile, but is 10% more attenuative. This eliminates the residual sweetness, and makes the yeast well suited for high gravity ales. It is also reaches terminal gravity quickly. 80% attenuation will be reached even with 10% ABV beers.

Alc. Tolerance: medium to high
Flocculation: medium to high
Attenuation: 70-80%
Temp. Range: 65-70°F


Pacman
Pacman is alcohol tolerant, flocculent, attenuates well and will produce beers with little to no diacetyl. Very mild fruit complements a dry, mineral finish making this a fairly neutral strain.

Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV
Flocculation med-high
Attenuation 72-78%
Temp. Range 60-72°F (15-22°C)

 

[jtejedor]

WLP007 is supposed to give some of those british esters when fermented a little higher. Personally it has always been really clean for me. If you use pacman ferment it low, if I don't ferment pacman at like 60 it just chews through my beer leaving it a bit thin.

 

[ultravista]

I always ferment with Pacman @ 60 degrees.

 

[CastleBlack]

Looking for feedback on the yeast.

I've got a lot of Pacman stocked away from yeast washing. It appears that the two yeasts are similiar.

Would my choice in Pacman signifigantly impact the flavor of the AB clone?

WLP007
Clean, highly flocculent, and highly attenuative yeast. This yeast is similar to WLP002 in flavor profile, but is 10% more attenuative. This eliminates the residual sweetness, and makes the yeast well suited for high gravity ales. It is also reaches terminal gravity quickly. 80% attenuation will be reached even with 10% ABV beers.

Alc. Tolerance: medium to high
Flocculation: medium to high
Attenuation: 70-80%
Temp. Range: 65-70°F


Pacman
Pacman is alcohol tolerant, flocculent, attenuates well and will produce beers with little to no diacetyl. Very mild fruit complements a dry, mineral finish making this a fairly neutral strain.

Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV
Flocculation med-high
Attenuation 72-78%
Temp. Range 60-72°F (15-22°C)

Pacman is a beast. It attenuates high and as you said no diacetyl. Even at slightly higher temps you wont get esters as you would with other yeasts. I would use it in AB if I wasnt concerned by how massive this yeast it. It can and may well dry us your brew and in this case, Mash temp providing, you might not want that. A.B has a special matly mystery about it. It finishes malty, maybe around 1.018 so I would be reluctant to use Pacman.

On the other hand no two home brews are the same so I would say give it a shot and let us know how it came out.

Happy brewing adventures to ya!

 

[ultravista]

I also have some Wyeast 1968 (ESB) from a previous brew.

Would 1968 be closer to WLP007?

A very good cask conditioned ale strain, this extremely flocculant yeast produces distinctly malty beers. Attenuation levels are typically less than most other yeast strains which results in a slightly sweeter finish. Ales produced with this strain tend to be fruity, increasingly so with higher fermentation temperatures of 70-74°F (21-23° C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete. Bright beers are easily achieved within days without any filtration.

Flocculation: Very High
Attenuation: 67-71%
Temperature Range: 64-72F, 18-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 9% ABV

 

[CastleBlack]

I also have some Wyeast 1968 (ESB) from a previous brew.

Would 1968 be closer to WLP007?

A very good cask conditioned ale strain, this extremely flocculant yeast produces distinctly malty beers. Attenuation levels are typically less than most other yeast strains which results in a slightly sweeter finish. Ales produced with this strain tend to be fruity, increasingly so with higher fermentation temperatures of 70-74°F (21-23° C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete. Bright beers are easily achieved within days without any filtration.

Flocculation: Very High
Attenuation: 67-71%
Temperature Range: 64-72F, 18-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 9% ABV

Havent used the W 1968 yet, but from what I see it seems to be quite a good match. To me this brew is about the residual "mysterious" maltyness and of course the Pine Cone of a hop presence (thanks the Gods for Chinook hops).
I think you may well just get that residual matlyness with 1968, give it a try, only good things can happen: you end up with a lot of A.B clone brew!

Happy brewing to ya.

 

[ultravista]

I toured the Stone brewery this week and based on the tour guide's comments, they must be asked about AB a lot. She told me personally that every tour includes someone asking for the recipe.

I didn't see any Special B but there was a lot of C150.

 

[CastleBlack]

I toured the Stone brewery this week and based on the tour guide's comments, they must be asked about AB a lot. She told me personally that every tour includes someone asking for the recipe.

I didn't see any Special B but there was a lot of C150.

Gosh does this put a smile on my face...

Thanks for the info ultra.

BTW, I am jotting down a Stone IPA clone any ideas or pointers?

It seems we both love Stone, I have a semi-solid recipe for the IPA, if you wish I can post it here or pm you if interested.

Happy brewing to ya.

 

[JimTheHick]

I was on the stone brewery too last month! Didn't see much in the way of c150.

Stone seems way too into keeping this mystery alive. I doubt they'd leave the key ingredient around for all to see.

But who knows- hide in plain sight?

 

[CastleBlack]

I was on the stone brewery too last month! Didn't see much in the way of c150.

Stone seems way too into keeping this mystery alive. I doubt they'd leave the key ingredient around for all to see.

But who knows- hide in plain sight?

Sounds like they are. I have faith in C-150!

Happy brewing to ya all.

 

[Areba]

I've never been to stone and i cant vouch for the authenticity of the pictures that i saw on another forum, but someone posted pictures online of bags of special b and what looked like c150 at their brewery The photos can be found pretty easily using a google image search. Users also commented that the bags could be decoys.

 

[JimTheHick]

I've never been to stone and i cant vouch for the authenticity of the pictures that i saw on another forum, but someone posted pictures online of bags of special b and what looked like c150 at their brewery The photos can be found pretty easily using a google image search. Users also commented that the bags could be decoys.

And I was a little drunk three hours after arriving and finally getting on a tour. Who the heck goes to stone brewery on the Saturday of a holiday weekend? This kid.