Butter Beer...

[RookieBrew]

So I bottled my beer a week ago. It is an American Lager Kit from my LHBS. I went to taste it today and it had a serious butter taste to it. I've heard a lot about off flavors and in particular a butter off flavor being the result of racking to secondary too soon. When I poured out the brew to taste, I noticed that almost no carbonation has set up yet, which is what I expected to some extent.

Is the off flavor something inherently wrong with the brew or could it be the result of the priming sugar not being fully converted yet.

... do I have a mini fridge full of bottle grenades?

I plan to let them sit for another week and try again. If there is still a significant butter flavor to them I think I am goiing to throw the batch away.

Do I have any other recourse, short of becoming fond of buttery beer?

 

[mysterio]

Sounds like diacetyl, a by-product of yeast. Hopefully leaving it longer, at least a couple of weeks in the bottle should clear this out. I think the yeast metabolise it close to the end of the fermentation. You shouldn't have a problem with bottle grenades unless you over-primed. I wouldn't be so hasty to throw the batch away after one week, anyway.

 

[BootYtRappeR]

don't throw it away!

send it to harry, ron and hermione! they love the stuff!

 

[magno]

DONT THROW IT AWAY!!!

Let it fully carbonate and age a little first. The taste changes significantly after a few weeks in the bottle.

You say you have them in a mini fridge. What temperature are you carbonating at? They should be a little warmer for a week or so to le the yeast do their thing, the cold conditioned of you have the ability.

- magno

 

[Kaiser]

I second the others and recommen that you also search for diacetyl or diacetyl rest. This should point you to some good posts about the avoidance of the buttery taste next time.

BTW, I have some questions for you:

at what temp did you pitch the yeast ?
how much yeast did you pitch ?
what was the fermentation temp ?
how long did the primary fermentation take ?


Kai

 

[Tony]

Drink it with toast!!!!!

Seriously, like these other guys have said, dont throw it out! Give it plenty of time.

 

[Mudd]

I haven't done a lager, but will lager yeast work in the fridge?

 

[david_42]

Diacetyl. Did you bring the temperature up to 65-70F for two days at the end of the primary fermentation? The diacetyl rest allows the yeast to consume this byproduct. Bring your bottles up to 70F for three or four days, that way the priming sugar will be consumed and some of the diacetyl as well.

 

[Kaiser]

I haven't done a lager, but will lager yeast work in the fridge?

Yes, lager yeast still works in the fridge. But at this temperature it works very slowly.

Kai

 

[Mudd]

Yes, lager yeast still works in the fridge. But at this temperature it works very slowly.

Kai

So instead of 2 - 3 weeks to carb @70F (Ales), in the mini fridge it will take 6 -7 (?) weeks??

 

[Brewpastor]

Which lager yeast did you use? Some produce more of that "buttery" flavor then others.

 

[Kaiser]

So instead of 2 - 3 weeks to carb @70F (Ales), in the mini fridge it will take 6 -7 (?) weeks??

Well, the yeast will be to slow for carbing the beer in a reasonable amount of time. If you want to get carbonation, store the bottles at a temp between 50 and 65F. This should also get rid of the diacetyl. After they are fully carbonated you should store them at 50F or even "lager" them between 32 and 40F.

Kai

 

[Desert_Sky]

click me

A nice quick bit of reading

 

[RookieBrew]

I second the others and recommen that you also search for diacetyl or diacetyl rest. This should point you to some good posts about the avoidance of the buttery taste next time.

BTW, I have some questions for you:

at what temp did you pitch the yeast ?
how much yeast did you pitch ?
what was the fermentation temp ?
how long did the primary fermentation take ?


Kai

I am sure all the following will be sub-optimal...

1.) Yeast was pitched at approx. 65-70degF and primary was moved to the fridge soon thereafter
2.) Small liquid yeast pack was used, the HBS gave it to me, I dont know how much was in it. Package was a tube approx 1.5" dia x 2.5"
3.) Fermentation temperature was constant at 48degF
4.) Fermentation (time spent in primary, at least) was 2 weeks. Time in Secondary was 3.5 weeks.

I did not know that I should let the primary sit out for a few days after fermentation to get rid of the diacetyl tones. I will be sure to do that from now on. Thanks for all the advice! I wont be so rash and throw these guys away, and with any luck they will come out good!

 

[RookieBrew]

click me

A nice quick bit of reading

I didn't realize the second page of replys. This was interesting, and something I had never heard before. Thanks for the link!

I dont know what yeast strain I used But after that batch I implemented a brewing notebook so I would be prepared to discuss my brews!!

Another question: I fermented and racked at 48degF. Is it desierable to ferment at one temperature and condition (if thats what its called in the secondary) at a different temp? I was pretty much running the fridge as warm as it would go, so there is a lot of room for cooler temperatures.

 

[Kaiser]

RookieBrew,

I asked because I want to understand when people actually experience a problem with diacetyl. I have that not happen to me yet, even though my first lager fermentation where suboptimal too.

1.) Yeast was pitched at approx. 65-70degF and primary was moved to the fridge soon thereafter
2.) Small liquid yeast pack was used, the HBS gave it to me, I dont know how much was in it. Package was a tube approx 1.5" dia x 2.5"

These are the two things you have done that I suspect being the reason for the high diacetyl levels. Pitching warm and an insufficient pitching rate for lagers. When lagers are pitched with a low pitching rate, the yeast has to go through a lot of growth cycles. According to the literature, ester and diacetyl production is connected with yeast growth as well a higher temperatures.

But pitching warm in a necessary evil for lagers, unless you can pitch about 80ml (~2.5 oz) of yeast sediment, in order to grow a sufficient amount of yeast in a reasonable amount of time.

BTW, how did you aerate?

Even though all that sounds complicated and frightening, time will be on your side and the yeast will eventually consume most of the diacetyl and esters it produced. Leaving you with a clean tasting beer.

Kai

 

[RookieBrew]

I aerated the brew by pouring into the carboy. I was told this would be enough. I also shook the carboy up the first few days, as I was told this would help to aerate furthor (though I dont know how, because the o2 levels must be low, if existant at all). Do you think pitching a 100Billion cell smack pack is enough for a lager, or should I still make a starter? I want to brew another lager soon, but wanna make sure I learn from my mistakes and correct the technique. I appriciate all the help!

 

[mysterio]

I posted another thread on this forum about a lager starter recently. You definately need a starter for a lager; 2-3 quarts/litres with a cup of DME until it's fermented out, then siphon out the liquid and pitch the yeast slurry.

I've got a lager starter in progress at the moment. 20 hours and no activity yet, slightly worried! I've never used lager yeast before so i've no idea how it behaves - time will tell!

 

[cweston]

I aerated the brew by pouring into the carboy. I was told this would be enough. I also shook the carboy up the first few days, as I was told this would help to aerate furthor (though I dont know how, because the o2 levels must be low, if existant at all). Do you think pitching a 100Billion cell smack pack is enough for a lager, or should I still make a starter? I want to brew another lager soon, but wanna make sure I learn from my mistakes and correct the technique. I appriciate all the help!

Pitching: definitely make a starter for a lager. 100 Billion cells sounds like a lot for 5 gallons, but that's actually still *way* below the rate commercial brewers pitch at.

Aeration: if you did a partial boil of less than 5 gallons, and then added tap water to top off to 5 gallons, then you're probably fine for aeration. If you did a full boil, then you may very well have had insufficient O2 in your wort. But generaly the carboy shaking should take place before (or immediately after) pitching, not over the course of days.

 

[Kaiser]

I aerated the brew by pouring into the carboy. I was told this would be enough. I also shook the carboy up the first few days, as I was told this would help to aerate furthor (though I dont know how, because the o2 levels must be low, if existant at all).

I'm not sure if this aeration technique will provide enough oxygen for a healthy lager fermentation to start. I have been using an SS stone and O2 bottle ever since my 2nd lager (because I had so many problems with my last lager). If you do partial boils, like cweston mentioned, you should tap off with tap water or ,even better, tap off with oxygen enriched bottled water from the grocery store. Before you tap-off, shake the carboy to absorb some of the O2 that is in the head space above the wort.

Do you think pitching a 100Billion cell smack pack is enough for a lager, or should I still make a starter? I want to brew another lager soon, but wanna make sure I learn from my mistakes and correct the technique. I appriciate all the help!

Like the others said, starters are *not* optional for lagers. Take a 1 gal growler and fill it with 2-3 qts of ~1.040 wort. Aerate this wort well by either shaking it or with an SS stone and O2. Pitch your smack pack. You can now keep the the starter warm. This will speed up the growth. Even better if you can do this on a stir plate . There is a nice thread about a home build one going on in this forum right now.

There are some brewers, me included, who keep lager starters at fermentation temp 50F-60F in order to avoid getting the yeast used to warm fermentation. But this is not as important and I don't want you to worry about a slow going starter.

Let it ferment out and decant the liquid. You don't have to siphon it off. Simply dumping it slowly will keep the yeast sediment in the growler. let the yeast come up to room temperature.

Get your wort temp into the 60s for pitching and get the yeast into suspension with some wort. Aerate your wort sufficiently and pitch the yeast. Now put it in your fermentation fridge and lower the temp to about 50F. Don't worry about a slow start here. It may take as long as 2 days until the beer is at high Kraeusen.

Get the book: Greg Noonan "New Brewing Lager Beer". Though it focuses on AG lager brewing, the fermentation and lagering sections of this book apply to
extract brewers as well.

Others,
Did I over-complicate things again?

Kai

 

[RookieBrew]

wow, thank you all for the help! I cant wait to try this again.

I took the butter bottles out of the fridge and am going to let them sit out for a few days. I will let you all know if this reduces (dare we say, eliminate) the diacety off-flavor.

Thanks again!

 

[cweston]

wow, thank you all for the help! I cant wait to try this again.

Brwing lagers is definitely more complicated that brewing ales.

And brewing anything *seems* really complicated when you first try it, but the whole process seems much simpler and more manageable once you've done it a few times.

 

[mysterio]

There are some brewers, me included, who keep lager starters at fermentation temp 50F-60F in order to avoid getting the yeast used to warm fermentation. But this is not as important and I don't want you to worry about a slow going starter.Kai

I learn something new everytime I look at this forum. Yeast are so damn temperamental!

 

[EvilTOJ]

I learn something new everytime I look at this forum. Yeast are so damn temperamental!

Boy I'll say! according to that light reading, I just learned that yeast turn diacetyl into acetone!

 

[dancingbarefoot]

Butter-flavored beer? Why exactly is this bad?

Now if only I could get bacon-flavored beer. Mmmm!