Brewing in a Bag 1st Timer

[AngryAndy]

Hi, I've been extract brewing for about 4 years. I'm finally making the switch to all grain. I have a few questions and was looking for a bit of direction:

1) Should i use a biab calculator like http://biabcalculator.com/ to determine my pre water, strike and mash temps?

2) To sparge or not to sparge? I gotta figure sparging will raise alcohol levels and probably help with efficiency. So my plan was to mash in my 10gal pot on a propane burner in the garage. Then raise the temp, mash out (as per directions/ like 170F) and then raise the bag out of the pot using a pulley mounted my ceiling. Should I just let it drain or sparge? And if I sparge do I just use a small bucket, collect wort from my mash kettle water and gentle pour it over the bag? And if so, how long do I do that? Or skip the whole process and just raise the bag, drain and toss it out?

3) When it comes to mashing should I hit my mash temperature, put a lid on and let it mash for the recommended time. Or should I reach the mash temp and house the kettle in an insulated container? In other words, will the kettle drop its temp too quickly just sitting on my propane burner outside. I was thinking of taking a brand new garbage can and lining it with a blanket and placing the mash kettle in there for the 60 minutes.

4) Lastly, can I order any old All-Grain-Kit like this one: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/OBK_Abbey_Ale_All_Grain_Beer_Recipe_Kit_p/grainkit-abbey-ale.htm

and do BIAB? Or is there All-Grain-Kits specifically made for BIABer's?

Again any help here would be awesome. I'm fairly familiar with the process but these questions are keeping me up at night.

Best regards,
Andy

 

[soccerdad]

Welcome ...

1) Should i use a biab calculator like http://biabcalculator.com/ to determine my pre water, strike and mash temps?

Yes, but do a boil off test. Put 5G in a kettle, boil at the rate you boil, and do a pre and post measurement. After that, track your losses from kettle to ferm and ferm to package. Your own consistency will be your best guide.

2) To sparge or not to sparge? I gotta figure sparging will raise alcohol levels and probably help with efficiency. So my plan was to mash in my 10gal pot on a propane burner in the garage. Then raise the temp, mash out (as per directions/ like 170F) and then raise the bag out of the pot using a pulley mounted my ceiling. Should I just let it drain or sparge? And if I sparge do I just use a small bucket, collect wort from my mash kettle water and gentle pour it over the bag? And if so, how long do I do that? Or skip the whole process and just raise the bag, drain and toss it out?

My opinion only - any time you can do full volume mash, do it and forget the sparge. That is a part of the beauty of BIAB - others have different opinions

3) When it comes to mashing should I hit my mash temperature, put a lid on and let it mash for the recommended time. Or should I reach the mash temp and house the kettle in an insulated container? In other words, will the kettle drop its temp too quickly just sitting on my propane burner outside. I was thinking of taking a brand new garbage can and lining it with a blanket and placing the mash kettle in there for the 60 minutes.

Insulate the kettle .. lots of options - sleeping bag, blanket, Reflectix, beach towels. I tend to baby the mash for 60 minutes (check, stir, etc) and then walk away for 10 or 20 or 30 minutes to prep and clean. Sometimes I find that the mash is where I need it after 40 minutes - sometimes 80

4) Lastly, can I order any old All-Grain-Kit like this one: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/OBK_...-abbey-ale.htm

and do BIAB? Or is there All-Grain-Kits specifically made for BIABer's?

Yes. There are a few kits made for BIAB (Northern Brewer, Brewers Best, etc) but the process is really only different in that you use more water up front

Brew Strong !

 

[Morrey]

Good questions, Andy. You'll find BIAB is user friendly getting into all grain.

While I don't know how any AG kits would be BIAB specific, maybe they include a grain bag...not sure.

Some folks do sparge, but if you collect your wort to pour same wort back over your grain bag, this is really not doing much. To sparge (rinse) successfully, pour correct temp water over the grain bag and grains. Some dunk up and down in fresh water...same thing. This requires some water management to determine how much this additional water will add to your pre-boil volume.

Personally, I lift my grain bag and let drain...then squeeze like you are getting blood from a turnip. All that crap you'll hear of astringency is just that...crap. Squeeze hard. This is where your efficiency comes from.

Grind is a critical factor. If you don't have a mill, consider one. If money is tight, a Corona mill can work fine, but a 2 or 3 roller mill is better for consistency. Not all will agree.

When I mash (adjust ph is a good thing to learn) I add grains, then cover and wrap a movers blanket around it sitting right on my burner...not lit of course. For a 60 min mash I'll uncover and stir at the 20 min mark and again at the 40 min mark. If I don't tarry, I typically don't lose more than 2 degrees F during this 60 min mash. If I want to mash at 150F for example, I'll add grains when water is 152 and the grain brings the water temp down a bit while stirring to mix thoroughly.

Hope this helps and not too much info all at once.

 

[AngryAndy]

Thank you for the fast response. Just so I understand:

1) Do a practice run so i know who much water i'm evaporating in my boil
2) Sparging in your opinion isn't worth the bother. And in simplest terms, I should just mash at whatever temp say, 152F, then raise the temp to stop the conversation, than raise the bag and let it drip drip drip for a bit.
3)So you think I could get my mash temp right on the burner and than transfer it to an insulated container. I like the sleeping bag idea.
4)All-Grain-Kits are the same as BIAB the only difference being I will start with quite a bit more water. For instance, about 7gal to start, than mash, and boil plus the trub loss it will likely be down to the 5gal. Of course I need to refer to question 1.

 

[AngryAndy]

It really helps thank you.

 

[Morrey]

Thank you for the fast response. Just so I understand:

1) Do a practice run so i know who much water i'm evaporating in my boil

Knowing your specific equipment, especially your boil off rate will be important. A test run for boil off is helpful. When I want 5.5G into fermenter with a 60 min boil, I'll start with 7.25 G full vol strike water. YMMV

2) Sparging in your opinion isn't worth the bother. And in simplest terms, I should just mash at whatever temp say, 152F, then raise the temp to stop the conversation, than raise the bag and let it drip drip drip for a bit.

I never raise my temp to stop conversion since after you get your grain bag removed, you are going to hit the burner and heat it to boiling anyway. let it drip, put on rubber gloves and squeeze snot out of bag,

3)So you think I could get my mash temp right on the burner and than transfer it to an insulated container. I like the sleeping bag idea.

No need to transfer wort from kettle or even move the kettle from the burner for that matter. Keep wort right in kettle on burner, wrap kettle and leave it be.

4)All-Grain-Kits are the same as BIAB the only difference being I will start with quite a bit more water. For instance, about 7gal to start, than mash, and boil plus the trub loss it will likely be down to the 5gal. Of course I need to refer to question 1.

Right. As mentioned I use 7.25G to start ending with 5.5G into fermenter.[/QUOTE]

 

[Morrey]

Andy, when you BIAB there will be (most say 4) losses prior to kegging or bottling your beer. I keg so I am looking for 5G on the mark. You'll hear 5.5G into fermenter as a typical batch size. So, where are my losses?

Example:

I add 7.25G of water into kettle, bring to 152F, add 10# of milled grains. Mash for 60 minutes, lift bag, drain squeeze. I check my water volume now and my kettle now has 6.75G of wort called pre-boil volume. Loss 1---Grain absorption.

Bring 6,75G to a boil adding hops and etc boiling for 60 min. Boil finished now I check and find my post-boil volume is 5.65G. Loss 2---Boil off.

Chill wort with immersion chiller. Tiny amount of difference (Loss 3) due to shrinkage, now I have 5.5G going into fermenter.

Looking good. All fermentation finished and I rack into keg or bottling bucket. Final loss (#4) is from the yeast cake and trub on bottom of fermenter. I lose .5G on this loss. 5G on the money into keg.

All losses totaled are 2.25G as an example.

 

[AngryAndy]

-Morrey and Soccerdad. THANK YOU!!! Much appreciated. I have one extract kit to deal with (Christmas gift) and than I'm movin' on up.

Thank you guys, really. I've watched video after video on youtube but NOBODY talks water volume pre, during and post. Nobody talks sparge or press the grain bag. You two have help me so much. Thank you. I'm going to print our conversations off and use it as reference for my first BIAB.

 

[soccerdad]

I don't know how any AG kits would be BIAB specific, maybe they include a grain bag...not sure

You could start with a paint strainer bag if your brew shop does not have them, but if you like this method, get with Wilser. His bags are superb and his customer service is excellent.

 

[PsychoBiter]

IF you heat the mash to maintain temp or mash out, with the bag in, make sure you have a false bottom in your kettle so you don't melt the bag.

I have found that raising the temp to 170 is a PITA, and have read that mashout with BIAB isn't needed because you simply remove the grains vs trying to stop conversion by raining to 170.

Expect low efficiency until you get your system dialed in and determine the true efficiency of your system and adjust your grain bill accordingly to hit your OG. When I started BIAB I added 5-10% to the grain bill and seemed to help. The bigger the beer the lower the efficiency.

 

[HOPME]

Good luck and welcome to BIAB. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Morrey]

You could start with a paint strainer bag if your brew shop does not have them, but if you like this method, get with Wilser. His bags are superb and his customer service is excellent.

As a matter of fact, soccerdad, Wilser has a Superbowl Sale going on now thru Sunday of the game. I highly endorse Wilserbags for Andy or anyone interested in BIAB.

 

[tzaccario]

Welcome to BIAB!! I just switched myself from extract brewing, and I couldn't be happier.

Definitely do a trial boil to find your evaporation rates. I took readings at 60min and 75min just so I could document the different rates and times.

I hear nothing but rave reviews for the bags available through Wilser, I had already purchased my brew bag through http://www.brewinabag.com/ before I had seen his, and it's pretty awesome.

As far as heat retention, leave the kettle where it is. I know some use sleeping bags or that insulated foil wrap.. I use moving blankets! The clean one goes over top with a bungee cord to hold it, and then I simply place a second over that.

No sparge for me.. I just squeeze the bag in my strainer like it owes me money, then put it aside over a clean bucket to finish dripping. Once the boil gets ripping I add those drippings into the kettle. Part of my switch to ALL Grain / BIAB was the investment in a mill. I milled my grain to just over .25 which was "fun" using a hand crank, but I ended up overshooting my OG since I severely under guessed my efficiency in Beersmith.

One thing I have learned over this last yr.. Try to just roll with it, and learn from each batch. Just like extract, each brew I have learned something new, and made some tweaks to my process to make it work for me.

Tom Z.

 

[McKnuckle]

Mash out is another of those longstanding mandates that just won't die, but which really does not apply unless you are fly sparging.

You perform a mash out to stop the enzymes, especially beta amylase, from continuing to work on the sugars in your wort while sparging takes place. This is because fly sparging takes a relatively long time. Batch sparging and no-sparge get heated up past 170F and start boiling much sooner. So the process isn't required if following those techniques. Skip it, save time, and lose nothing.

 

[AngryAndy]

wow guys thank you for the information. I'm looking forward to it. I'll be doing some shopping on Wilser today.

 

[Knightmare1]

May be Hijacking a bit, but I am new to BIAB too. First batch was Sunday.
I thought the grain should be added at Strike temp in order to obtain targeted Mash.
I heated to 159(strike temp) added grain and ended up a bit high on mash 155/156 F(targeting 154)
Seems like you guys are heating to mash temp than adding grain.
What is the strike temp than? Apparently I misunderstood and probably changed my beer on this batch.

 

[tzaccario]

May be Hijacking a bit, but I am new to BIAB too. First batch was Sunday.
I thought the grain should be added at Strike temp in order to obtain targeted Mash.
I heated to 159(strike temp) added grain and ended up a bit high on mash 155/156 F(targeting 154)
Seems like you guys are heating to mash temp than adding grain.
What is the strike temp than? Apparently I misunderstood and probably changed my beer on this batch.

I added my last batch at a strike temp of 158 which the cold knocked down to 150ish at mash in. So you are correct, the water gets heated hotter than the mash in temp. The "right" strike temp is a moving target if you brew in the un-heated / cooled garage like I do.

 

[AngryAndy]

Hey Knightmare, I'm no authority on this topic yet (obviously) but i had the same question at the beginning of this thread. I found this: http://biabcalculator.com/ you just dump in your numbers and it tells you what your strike should be.

awesome.

 

[Knightmare1]

Thanks TZaccario.
I guess I just need to dial in my setup. Maybe needed to stir the wort before the strike temp reading or after mash to get accurate temps. Could have been off on either. Guess that is one of the trickier parts of BIAB and need to work on it. I.E. Make more beer till I get it right.

 

[McKnuckle]

You have it right. Heat water to your calculated strike temp, then dough in the grains. Stir very well and - if you used a calculator - your resulting mash temp should be within a degree or so of your target.

Note that it's also important to measure the temperature of the milled grain before deciding on a strike temp. Don't just use the default value in the calculator (if there is one).

The nice thing about BIAB is that generally, you are not moving your heated water from HLT to mash tun, so you don't have to plan for a temperature drop during transfer. In BIAB, we heat to strike temp "in place" so it's more reliable.

 

[Knightmare1]

Glad I hijacked now. Thanks AngryAndy and Mcknuckle. The calculator link is now in my favorites. On top of that I hit my OG post boil right on, so maybe a little maltier than targeting but Im sure it will be fine.
Also, learned to take gravity reading post mash / pre-boil today to get my efficiency next time.

 

[soccerdad]

When my mash is hot .... i.e., strike 160 and mash settles 154 when I want 152, I just leave the lid off and don't wrap the kettle for maybe 10 min.

 

[RM-MN]

When my mash is hot .... i.e., strike 160 and mash settles 154 when I want 152, I just leave the lid off and don't wrap the kettle for maybe 10 min.

If your grains are milled fine and you mash at 154 and leave the lid off so the mash cools to 152, you really mashed at 154. Conversion happens very quickly with the finely milled grains and your mash was over before you mash cooled. With coarser milled grains it takes longer for the starch to gelatinize and until that happens the enzymes can't work. With that in mind, coarser crushes either require a longer mash or get you lower efficiency....or both.

 

[shetc]

http://biabrewer.info/

 

[soccerdad]

If your grains are milled fine and you mash at 154 and leave the lid off so the mash cools to 152, you really mashed at 154. Conversion happens very quickly with the finely milled grains and your mash was over before you mash cooled. With coarser milled grains it takes longer for the starch to gelatinize and until that happens the enzymes can't work. With that in mind, coarser crushes either require a longer mash or get you lower efficiency....or both.

Todays mash was 1030 after 20, 1035 after 40 and 1040 after 60. I grind fine with my Victoria but I don't grind to flour. Actually overshot my final .. 1057 and was going for 1053.

 

[RM-MN]

Todays mash was 1030 after 20, 1035 after 40 and 1040 after 60. I grind fine with my Victoria but I don't grind to flour. Actually overshot my final .. 1057 and was going for 1053.

If I take a sample from the top at 20 I often get a low reading but when I stir I find it to be at the expected OG. If I wait longer without stirring I will eventually get to the expected OG. I suspect that the sugar laden water sinks to the bottom of the pot much as when you might have when adding malt extract. Given more time the concentrated sugar mix better. Give it a try sometime.

 

[soccerdad]

I stir and check at 20 minute intervals. Often done at 40, but yesterday got additional in the 3rd 20 min interval ... happens sometimes. Like, I said - the crush is fine, but not flour fine.

 

[RM-MN]

I stir and check at 20 minute intervals. Often done at 40, but yesterday got additional in the 3rd 20 min interval ... happens sometimes. Like, I said - the crush is fine, but not flour fine.

Tighten up the mill if you can. That seems to be the limiting factor in the speed of conversion. If you have iodine handy grab a sample with grain particles in it and check for conversion.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If your grains are milled fine and you mash at 154 and leave the lid off so the mash cools to 152, you really mashed at 154. Conversion happens very quickly with the finely milled grains and your mash was over before you mash cooled. .

This concept confuses me a bit. While I agree, initial conversion will happen very quickly with finely milled grains, aren't some or most of the enzymes still active while mash cools and conversion continues, the larger chains are further broken as the mash cools making the wort more fermentable?

154-152 is a small delta, and won't make much difference if any. Say a mash cools 155 - 145, would it still be accurate to say you mashed at 155 if using finely milled grains?

 

[RM-MN]

This concept confuses me a bit. While I agree, initial conversion will happen very quickly with finely milled grains, aren't some or most of the enzymes still active while mash cools and conversion continues, the larger chains are further broken as the mash cools making the wort more fermentable?

154-152 is a small delta, and won't make much difference if any. Say a mash cools 155 - 145, would it still be accurate to say you mashed at 155 if using finely milled grains?

That's a hard question to answer and pinning down the time for enzymes to denature is almost impossible. I've looked and not found it. All I found is that it denatures quickly. If the beta amylase denatures quickly (how long is "quickly") at higher temperatures does it last long enough to continue breaking down the longer chain sugars. How does a beer that is mashed at 152 for 20 minutes compare with one mashed at 152 for 60? I don't know that answer. I suspect that the control of the fermentability with temperature is more related to the fineness of the crush but I don't brew or drink enough to know.

 

[soccerdad]

Tighten up the mill if you can. That seems to be the limiting factor in the speed of conversion. If you have iodine handy grab a sample with grain particles in it and check for conversion.

Thanks, but no interest in doing so. Brewing is therapy for me. A 60 to 90 minute mash is no prob at all. I'm generally done in 3.5 to 5 hrs and that time is blissful.

 

[McKnuckle]

...initial conversion will happen very quickly with finely milled grains, aren't some or most of the enzymes still active while mash cools and conversion continues, the larger chains are further broken as the mash cools making the wort more fermentable?

I'm glad you posted this, because I always have the same thought when reading RM's posts about short mash times. Alpha amylase acts more quickly than beta. So in theory you could mash for a really short time, even at a moderate temperature, and end up with a wort full of dextrins. We keep the mash going because we want beta to snip those up into fermentable simple sugars. And if you mash low, it's most beta acting in the first place.

And beta clearly does not denature that quickly. If it did, one couldn't mash at 160F like Lagunitas does when brewing their IPA (their head brewer discusses it on a Can You Brew It episode).

So I think it's a little misleading to espouse these short mash times without issuing appropriate caveats about fermentability.

Unfortunately I bought a Schmidling MaltMill with a fixed gap. So I can't crush finer, and milling twice doesn't get me much extra goodness so I often don't bother. I definitely see efficiency improvements with 75 or 90 minute mashes, so I am sticking with that as standard practice regardless of how quickly the starches theoretically convert. I'm convinced that there is more to mashing than just strict conversion.

 

[RM-MN]

I'm glad you posted this, because I always have the same thought when reading RM's posts about short mash times. Alpha amylase acts more quickly than beta. So in theory you could mash for a really short time, even at a moderate temperature, and end up with a wort full of dextrins. We keep the mash going because we want beta to snip those up into fermentable simple sugars. And if you mash low, it's most beta acting in the first place.

And beta clearly does not denature that quickly. If it did, one couldn't mash at 160F like Lagunitas does when brewing their IPA (their head brewer discusses it on a Can You Brew It episode).

So I think it's a little misleading to espouse these short mash times without issuing appropriate caveats about fermentability.

Unfortunately I bought a Schmidling MaltMill with a fixed gap. So I can't crush finer, and milling twice doesn't get me much extra goodness so I often don't bother. I definitely see efficiency improvements with 75 or 90 minute mashes, so I am sticking with that as standard practice regardless of how quickly the starches theoretically convert. I'm convinced that there is more to mashing than just strict conversion.

If this is the case, then why do my short mash brews attenuate so fully. If they were mostly dextrines I would end up with a high final gravity...but I don't. Something seems amiss.

 

[Morrey]

This concept confuses me a bit. While I agree, initial conversion will happen very quickly with finely milled grains, aren't some or most of the enzymes still active while mash cools and conversion continues, the larger chains are further broken as the mash cools making the wort more fermentable?

154-152 is a small delta, and won't make much difference if any. Say a mash cools 155 - 145, would it still be accurate to say you mashed at 155 if using finely milled grains?

Well, here is a question that I have pondered as we have all discussed the various stages and timing of mashing. What would I end up with finely milled grains for BIAB, mashed for 5 minutes which we are debating will be most of the conversion, then chilled wort and fermented? I would hate a waste a batch of beer like this, but what would I get from this 5 min mash?

 

[RM-MN]

Well, here is a question that I have pondered as we have all discussed the various stages and timing of mashing. What would I end up with finely milled grains for BIAB, mashed for 5 minutes which we are debating will be most of the conversion, then chilled wort and fermented? I would hate a waste a batch of beer like this, but what would I get from this 5 min mash?

I think you would get a beer with alcohol and no flavor. That's what I got with a 10 minute mash. At 20 minutes there was pretty good flavor. I don't intend on trying a 5 minute mash as I discovered I like my beer to have flavor and drinking a flavorless batch doesn't appeal to me anymore.

 

[McKnuckle]

I guess I just don't see the point of shortening what is one of the most important phases in brewing. Or at least, I don't see the point in aiming to shorten it. It's definitely interesting academically to know that "conversion happens quickly," and just how quickly, through experimentation... But that might be like saying that one's homemade tomato sauce is "ready to eat" after 10 minutes of cooking, whereas we all know it will taste worlds better if it simmers for an hour.

 

[RM-MN]

I guess I just don't see the point of shortening what is one of the most important phases in brewing. Or at least, I don't see the point in aiming to shorten it. It's definitely interesting academically to know that "conversion happens quickly," and just how quickly, through experimentation... But that might be like saying that one's homemade tomato sauce is "ready to eat" after 10 minutes of cooking, whereas we all know it will taste worlds better if it simmers for an hour.

Perhaps you don't have limited time to brew. If so, good for you. I usually run out of day before I get done all I want so saving an hour or more on brew day and still getting decent beer to drink is important to me. If I got substantially better beer by taking longer I might do that.

 

[McKnuckle]

Ok, fair enough then. I'm a middle aged married guy with 3 kids, a job, and other interests. OF COURSE I have limited time to brew!

 

[Morrey]

I think you would get a beer with alcohol and no flavor. That's what I got with a 10 minute mash. At 20 minutes there was pretty good flavor. I don't intend on trying a 5 minute mash as I discovered I like my beer to have flavor and drinking a flavorless batch doesn't appeal to me anymore.

Yeah, I figured the longer we mash, the more flavor extraction we get from the grains. I didn't know you actually had done a 10 minute mash before so this is darn valuable information!

 

[Morrey]

I guess I just don't see the point of shortening what is one of the most important phases in brewing. Or at least, I don't see the point in aiming to shorten it. It's definitely interesting academically to know that "conversion happens quickly," and just how quickly, through experimentation... But that might be like saying that one's homemade tomato sauce is "ready to eat" after 10 minutes of cooking, whereas we all know it will taste worlds better if it simmers for an hour.

I totally understand your position and agree. Like RM-MN and I have discussed on a separate occasion, knowing that a good percentage of the conversion takes place in the first couple of minutes is very valuable information indeed. Now I don't suppose I'll strike out to do a 2 minute mash, but this can be critical in other regards. If I test my ph at 20 minutes and adjust on the fly (I read this on HBT recently) we would be shutting the barn door after the horses are out. So in that regard, and a host of other factors, knowing conversion speed is helpful for sure. I was just called out by a guy who wanted to correct me for always adjusting (ph and salts) my strike water before I dough-in. My thinking, as RM-MN has confirmed, is if I wait until the mash has begun, the show is darn near over by the time I test mid-mash.