bradleybiscuits
New Member
Beautiful work Jon.
My wife dislikes you already!!!!!
My wife dislikes you already!!!!!
Last edited:
Brewers Hardware, All Stainless, Single Tier, BCS-462, Automated Rig
- Thread starter JonW
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Hi Jon,
I had another question if you don't mind. From what I can see, your system is a closed system. How are you transferring to a fermenter after chilling and how are you draining any left over junk wort and such? There must be a place that allows you to drain and transfer wort.
Thanks
I had another question if you don't mind. From what I can see, your system is a closed system. How are you transferring to a fermenter after chilling and how are you draining any left over junk wort and such? There must be a place that allows you to drain and transfer wort.
Thanks
OP
OP
Each kettle has a disconnect on the inside at the top. I disconnect the whirlpool arm on the BK and then attach a hose that runs over to the fermenter. I actually put the hose in place a before I start chilling so that I can recirculate through that hose to ensure there are no bugs there.
OP
OP
Doing a little update for the weekend brew day.
On my older Blingmann 20G kettle, I used one of the old style Blingmann kettle screens. When I moved to a 30G Brewers Hardware kettle (on my old stand), I still kept using that screen. I always used it in conjunction with either individual paint strainer bags that each had a hop addition or with a hop spider. The combo of the two units has worked pretty well. The only real issue I've had though is that the screen gets plugged because the amount of hop and break material in the 30G kettle is just to much for the little surface area of the screen.
Enter... the mega-hop-dam! This is a prototype unit that I had Brewers Hardware fashion up for me. It uses two 10" long screens and an SS shield to keep the hop/break material at bay. You can see from the pics that it dwarfs the old screen. This should work much better!
On my older Blingmann 20G kettle, I used one of the old style Blingmann kettle screens. When I moved to a 30G Brewers Hardware kettle (on my old stand), I still kept using that screen. I always used it in conjunction with either individual paint strainer bags that each had a hop addition or with a hop spider. The combo of the two units has worked pretty well. The only real issue I've had though is that the screen gets plugged because the amount of hop and break material in the 30G kettle is just to much for the little surface area of the screen.
Enter... the mega-hop-dam! This is a prototype unit that I had Brewers Hardware fashion up for me. It uses two 10" long screens and an SS shield to keep the hop/break material at bay. You can see from the pics that it dwarfs the old screen. This should work much better!
Nice. I assume you don't whirlpool then?
OP
OP
Yes, I whirlpool. Why would you assume not?
Isn't the screen and wall overkill for whirlpool? Can't you just wait for the trub to settle then run a pickup tube against the side wall?
OP
OP
With 10 minutes left in the boil, I start a recirc. At 6 minutes left, I bring the plate chiller into the loop to sterilize it and the hose that is used to transfer to the fermenter. I don't want to recirc through the plate chiller without filtering the trub out.
That makes a lot of sense. I use an IC so didn't even think about the clogging issue.
Still, that filter setup is pretty sweet!
OP
OP
Used the new boil screen today for two batches and it worked great! The thing was caked with hop and break material but it didn't affect the flow. It also cleaned a lot easier than my old screens. I just hit it with the pressure from the garden hose and it blew the gunk right off. Wort going to the fermenters looked pretty clean.
I have wrestled with my whirlpool timing. Currently, I recirc through the chillers with 5 minutes left in the boil to sanitize them (and bump duty cycle up to keep a rapid boil). Then I start a fast whirlpool (no chillers) for 10 minutes, then back through the chillers for 5 minutes to clear the hops/break out of them. These 15 minutes the temp is maintained at 205 because I don't want the wort boiling creating convective currents which will disrupt the efficacy of the whirlpool. I also have an option built in to begin reducing the kettle temp to 180 by enabling the chiller flush water to perform a hop stand.
In your cycle above, do you stop the boil? I suppose I could let the temp come down and hold near boiling, do a fast whirlpool, then a slow whirlpool like you do (through chiller). I suppose 208 would still sterilize the chillers. But how would you do a reduced temp hopstand? Turn the chiller flush on at the end or the chiller sanitization?
OP
OP
I keep the boil going while I recirc. With the old kettle screen, every once in a while I would lose prime on my pump with a vigorous boil going. However, I can tell just from the two batches yesterday that the new kettle screen is helping greatly as my flow was way better than it was with the smaller screen.
I have mine set to chill to 180 also. Even at that temp, you are still sterilizing the chiller.
I'm a complete newbie and brewed my first 5 gallon batch yesterday. I used two sawhorses and a couple of old 2X4s for my stand. WOW, is this what I have to look forward too??
What a beautiful work of art.
I've found these forums to be a terrific wealth of knowldege, very glad that you pros are here.
What a beautiful work of art.
I've found these forums to be a terrific wealth of knowldege, very glad that you pros are here.
OK looking for some guidance... and this may take some careful reading to make sense... Not meaning to hijack the thread, so please let me know if you'd rather not discuss here.
Currently, I have no filtering in my boil kettle. My BCS boil process is set up to boil countdown for time, then for the last 5 minutes, pump through the chillers to sanitize them. Hop material is free to flow through them (since they are CFC, I don't sweat it). The return is via the whirlpool arm, but since the boil duty cycle keeps going, he boiling continues and with boiling bubbles, there will be no efficacy to the whirlpool.
Then, I turn the boiling off and begin a whirlpool sequence. One of two things happens: Either a three state sequence loops to perform a kettle temperature drop for a hopstand (where the chillers remain in line, flush water is turned on/paused to mix/temperature checked for <=180), or it that sequence is skipped goes into "fast" whirlpool (fast means chillers taken out) for 10 minutes. I do this because the whirlpool really gets cranking without the restriction of the chillers inline.
Then I put the chillers back in line for 5 minutes to clear them free of hop material in a "slow" whirlpool.
With this setup, I have perfectly clear wort. I am very happy with the performance of my chillers, but would someday like to upgrade to plate chillers, if for no reason other than more of a "professional" setup. My concerns are the propensity for clogging doing this. So I could turn the boil off (or go PID 208 degrees) and whirlpool first, then bring the chillers inline (and the remaining sub-boiling temp should be OK to sanitize as you mentioned), but then how would I do a hopstand? I have a silly goal of not using filtering (I like the challenge I guess?), so any ideas how this could be accomplished? Probably more of an academic discussion, but what the heck.
Currently, I have no filtering in my boil kettle. My BCS boil process is set up to boil countdown for time, then for the last 5 minutes, pump through the chillers to sanitize them. Hop material is free to flow through them (since they are CFC, I don't sweat it). The return is via the whirlpool arm, but since the boil duty cycle keeps going, he boiling continues and with boiling bubbles, there will be no efficacy to the whirlpool.
Then, I turn the boiling off and begin a whirlpool sequence. One of two things happens: Either a three state sequence loops to perform a kettle temperature drop for a hopstand (where the chillers remain in line, flush water is turned on/paused to mix/temperature checked for <=180), or it that sequence is skipped goes into "fast" whirlpool (fast means chillers taken out) for 10 minutes. I do this because the whirlpool really gets cranking without the restriction of the chillers inline.
Then I put the chillers back in line for 5 minutes to clear them free of hop material in a "slow" whirlpool.
With this setup, I have perfectly clear wort. I am very happy with the performance of my chillers, but would someday like to upgrade to plate chillers, if for no reason other than more of a "professional" setup. My concerns are the propensity for clogging doing this. So I could turn the boil off (or go PID 208 degrees) and whirlpool first, then bring the chillers inline (and the remaining sub-boiling temp should be OK to sanitize as you mentioned), but then how would I do a hopstand? I have a silly goal of not using filtering (I like the challenge I guess?), so any ideas how this could be accomplished? Probably more of an academic discussion, but what the heck.
Hmmmm... What if you cut the power to the boil (without cooling), and just run the 'fast' whirlpool for 10-20 minutes, then did a slow flow through the counter flow chillers?
I haven't done this, but I would think as long as the whirlpool coned up correctly, you shouldn't get any hops stuck in the plates?
I haven't done this, but I would think as long as the whirlpool coned up correctly, you shouldn't get any hops stuck in the plates?
OP
OP
My process is quite similar to yours and I do an automated chill to 180 cycle as well for hopstands. If you're not doing anything to contain your hops other than the whirlpool, then yeah, you may have a propensity for either clogging, or at a minimum, you could end up with stuck hop material hanging around in the chiller. You'd likely need something to contain the hops. That's why I use individual strainer bags for each hop addition and the kettle screen. My wort also runs clear to the fermenter and the other straining activities keep it out of the plate chiller.
The only potential way around this that I see is if you were to do your whirlpooling for a long enough period with boil off and get everything to drop out, then bring the chiller online to sanitize and to drop to 180, add hops and recirc again with the hop stand and then no chiller inline. Once everything drops out again, you would then need to bring the chiller inline once again to finish chilling. It would probably add some extra time for the additional whirlpoolings to get everything clear, but probably doable.
OP
OP
Not really that complicated - it just looks that way. Take a look at the Visio diagram for liquid flows and it's actually pretty straight forward.
I do no have a complete parts list, but all the major items are covered in the first post or two.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
Do you have any photos of your inlets from the inside? What exactly is on the inside and are they triclamp and tangential? Why did you decide to make the HLT and BK inlets high up? Finally, why did you decide to have the temperature sensors in the front directly above the valve instead of say out of the way in the back?
OP
OP
Good questions! I don't have a handy pic of the inside, but each kettle has a TC flange on the inside. I don't like the tangential inputs as they create temperature stratification when recirculating during heating or chilling. I use a TC barbed elbow on the inside with a short section of silicone hose attached to it that directs the flow along the kettle wall. The MLT has a longer hose that lays on top of the grain bed. On the BK, I disconnect the TC on the inside right before chilling and attach a 4' transfer hose that I use for running the wort into the fermenters.
In regards to the temp sensors, I have dual temp sensor on each kettle. One is in in the plumbing on the return to kettle side and one is on each kettle. The kettles come pre-done with the port on the front, but also, because of the heat wash coming out the rear, I wouldn't run any wiring there.
OP
OP
None of the kettles came with the top return port. I could have used their MT kettles with the top right return, but I'm a creature of habit. My last two stands both had top left returns and I've laid out my system left to right with plumbing that utilizes the return at the top left. If I switched and went right to left, I could have used their pre-built MT kettles. I had them use 3 of their MLT kettles and add the custom return port to the top left.
1fastsedan
Active Member
Wow Jon, just wow. I dropped by to see what size batches you're doing. I'm planning on moving up to 15 gallons/batch. Looks like you've knocked everything out of the park.
OP
OP
Thanks. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to brew in a few months and its probably going to be another before I can.
I'm hoping with all that cool landscaping you've been doing that you're going to have a full on brew shed in that nice back yard.
How do you regulate the gas flow? With the ball valves? Also why did you not go all sanitary fittings and tubing on the worth side and re circulation?
OP
OP
I have ball valves under the stand where the gas solenoids are to set my maximum gas flow rate. Additionally, the burners have an adjuster on them to trim the gas flow if needed.
I see no reason to use sanitary elbows and additional TC clamps to make all connections. On the hot side, your recirculation into the BK sterilizes everything prior to running it into the fermenter. Additionally, using compression fittings to the TC's makes the plumbing much simpler and compact.
Hi Jon,
How are you bending your steel tubing? Is this something that can be done easily with a bender? If you are able to, what size tubing are you using? Do you have an recommendations when hard plumbing a brewery? I am trying to do the same.
How are you bending your steel tubing? Is this something that can be done easily with a bender? If you are able to, what size tubing are you using? Do you have an recommendations when hard plumbing a brewery? I am trying to do the same.
OP
OP
It was all bent using a hand bender. Pretty easy. All tubing is 1/2" except for the burners which is 3/8". I bought all the tubing from McMaster.
The majority of my bends are single 90 degree bends which allows you to trim the length of either/both ends to match up to your application. Putting multiple bends into the tubing gets a little trickier when trying to line things up. Still, not super hard.
I have been thinking about how to incorporate hard tuning into a rig. I know compressions is a way as you used Jon but I personally think they have too much room for gunk collection inside as the ferrule makes the seal on the outside of the tube a distance from the end.
I have considered socket weld fittings but of course they can't be screwed or unscrewed once welded or soldered. TC with small tubing might make sense but it's still a lot of hardware.
I think solderable camlocks like Bobby's makes the most sense, except we need them in the female versions too.
I have considered socket weld fittings but of course they can't be screwed or unscrewed once welded or soldered. TC with small tubing might make sense but it's still a lot of hardware.
I think solderable camlocks like Bobby's makes the most sense, except we need them in the female versions too.
OP
OP
I personally feel it is a non-issue. I run hot water through the rig after brewing and that alone cleans out everything nicely. Additionally, none of the compression fittings have the actual compression ring installed. I simply use an o-ring there. You can easily open any of the compression fittings to check things out (note: I did use the compression rings on the fresh water input plumbing due to the pressure there).
Additionally, just in case there's gunk left around, recirculating the hot wort is killing it anyways.
Jon, thank you for the feedback. Much appreciated. Would you happen to know what thickness the 1/2" ss pipe was? Or the ID at least? I trust your experience from others as most information here runs the board when considering thickness for bending.
True. Hey I have threaded fittings and ball valves all over. I cycle those during cleaning to get behind the seats, but who the heck knows!
Another option that would be great is flare fittings. Very clean and easy install. Takes some work to make the flares, but once you have the tool its easy. Problem is the co$t. 1/2" NPT x 3/4" JIC adapters are routinely above $15 each, and the flare tool for 1/2" OD SS tubing is not cheap either.
OP
OP
Here's the McMaster info for both the 3/8" and 1/2" tubing. (Pricing is when I bought it, may not be current pricing).
89895K736 - Type 304 Smooth-Bore Seamless Stainless Steel Tubing, 3/8" OD, .319" ID, .028" Wall, 3' Length, $19.64
89895K743 - Type 304 Smooth-Bore Seamless Stainless Steel Tubing, 1/2" OD, .444" ID, .028" Wall, 6' Length, $32.26
I guess you basically CIP everything? it looks that way, I run an eBIAB setup and have been wanting to run some SS lines for some time, I just got a SS filter for the plate chiller and now will mount them, somehow, to the table.
very nice setup!!
very nice setup!!
OP
OP
Yes and no. I can CIP and just dump to the drain, but the kettles easily come off. The problem with doing pure CIP is that you can't dump a kettle 100% with a pickup tube. You can always toss a towel in to get the last bit or just disconnect and tip it to dump the last bit. The MLT has a tippy dump on the back of it as well (not shown in pics as it was made later) so that grain can be dumped right into a large lawn bag.
Jon, fantastic build, an inspiration. I can not achieve what you have done, but am about to build a much more modest 10 gallon version. Like many others I will be using low pressure propane and the BG14 burners, with the Honeywell furnace control valves, standing pilots, with 2 x 15 gal. heavy duty Morebeer kettles for HLT/MT, and a 22 gal. Brewbuilt BK. These kettles all have nearly identical width. I am struggling with some frame and propane design issues, and would appreciate your feedback. Basically how can I design a frame, wind shields, etc. and get these burners to perform well under all conditions, so that I can control my temperatures during the brew day. The goal is to make great beer, I try and keep that in perspective. I want this to be my last build, and then just get on with brewing happily ever after.
I've brewed a couple batches on a friends Brutus system, and there were some temp. control issues that seemed related to his keggles sitting directly on the 2" steel frame. The massive frame in conjunction with the keggles and their skirted bottom seemed like an awful lot of thermal mass to deal with, soaking up a lot of BTU's, and then when the propane burner turned off all that metal kept dumping stored heat back into the keggles and mash, making it difficult to achieve any constant temp. Is that your experience on Brutus systems you've had, is all that framing a big heat sponge? If so, I am thinking about making a grating system for my kettles to sit on, such as a kitchen stove, instead of kettles sitting directly on the 2" frame. Or support the kettles in some other way, such as a short stub of 2 x 2" radiating from the frame inward toward the burner. It seems more appropriate to apply the flame to the kettle bottom than against all that 2x2" framing. And not have the frame blocking the flow of flame, exhaust, and heat. Grating would be supported by a somewhat wider 2x2" frame, allowing for better air flow and ventilation at the base of the kettles. This brings up the problem of the grating warping with heat. The height of the grating could be easily adjusted via bolts in the corners, acting like mini jack stands.
I also see you've used the Brewers Hardware frame design, along with their unique wind shields. This frame design only supports the kettle on three sides, and is supposed to allow burner exhaust to vent out the back of the frame. Is this frame design necessary now that you've come up with the turbo air supplement? How would you compare it to a typical Brutus frame, or with using a grating system to deal with the exhaust issue. From the video it seems if i add the air supplement a lot of the flame wash up the sides, burner exhaust issues, heat going sideways into the frame, etc. goes away, and the heat goes more directly up to the kettle bottom.
With all that said, what is your recommendation for framing, wind shield, kettle support and such?
I've brewed a couple batches on a friends Brutus system, and there were some temp. control issues that seemed related to his keggles sitting directly on the 2" steel frame. The massive frame in conjunction with the keggles and their skirted bottom seemed like an awful lot of thermal mass to deal with, soaking up a lot of BTU's, and then when the propane burner turned off all that metal kept dumping stored heat back into the keggles and mash, making it difficult to achieve any constant temp. Is that your experience on Brutus systems you've had, is all that framing a big heat sponge? If so, I am thinking about making a grating system for my kettles to sit on, such as a kitchen stove, instead of kettles sitting directly on the 2" frame. Or support the kettles in some other way, such as a short stub of 2 x 2" radiating from the frame inward toward the burner. It seems more appropriate to apply the flame to the kettle bottom than against all that 2x2" framing. And not have the frame blocking the flow of flame, exhaust, and heat. Grating would be supported by a somewhat wider 2x2" frame, allowing for better air flow and ventilation at the base of the kettles. This brings up the problem of the grating warping with heat. The height of the grating could be easily adjusted via bolts in the corners, acting like mini jack stands.
I also see you've used the Brewers Hardware frame design, along with their unique wind shields. This frame design only supports the kettle on three sides, and is supposed to allow burner exhaust to vent out the back of the frame. Is this frame design necessary now that you've come up with the turbo air supplement? How would you compare it to a typical Brutus frame, or with using a grating system to deal with the exhaust issue. From the video it seems if i add the air supplement a lot of the flame wash up the sides, burner exhaust issues, heat going sideways into the frame, etc. goes away, and the heat goes more directly up to the kettle bottom.
With all that said, what is your recommendation for framing, wind shield, kettle support and such?
OP
OP
My suggestion for framing, wind shield and kettle support? I'd do it again exactly the way I have it here. The Brewers Hardware frame works very well for moving the exhaust heat out the back keeping everything up front cool enough to touch/handle.
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