Brew over carbed at 1 week

[dirtybasementbrew]

I just opened my Citra APA after 7 days (I like the early test to confirm how much better my brew is with time) and it filled half the glass with head. Should I fridge to slow it down? Will they blow up? I'm kinda of worried because it tastes great, and it's my first all grain brew!!!!

 

[beergolf]

How long in the fridge?

At only 7 days you need more time for the carbonation to get into the brew. Let it sit for another couple of weeks and then put one in the fridge for a minimum of 24 hours. Longer is better.

 

[Franco]

It takes a little while for the CO2 to get completely absorbed into the beer. Until then, it'll do exactly as you've seen - foam up and leave you with very little, very flat beer.

If you want to keep testing them early, leave one in the fridge for a couple days before opening it. The colder your beer is, the more CO2 it will absorb and it won't froth up as much.

 

[dirtybasementbrew]

It takes a little while for the CO2 to get completely absorbed into the beer. Until then, it'll do exactly as you've seen - foam up and leave you with very little, very flat beer.

If you want to keep testing them early, leave one in the fridge for a couple days before opening it. The colder your beer is, the more CO2 it will absorb and it won't froth up as much.

Thanks Franco, I didn't want 2 cases to blow up all over my wifes side of the bedroom!!!!! Lol

 

[BigFloyd]

There's a YouTube video where the guy pops the tops on brews at different lengths of time after bottling. Too early = lots of foam and flat beer.

Watching that will convince you to leave them alone for 4 weeks at room temp before putting them in the fridge for at least a couple days before drinking.

 

[Revvy]

They're NOT over carbonated. You've opened them TOO SOON. The co2 is in the headpsace and NOT in solution.

We get this all the time from impatient folks who open their bottles WAAAAAYYYYYYY early. If you opened them at three weeks, you never would have noticed.

If you watch Poindexter's video on time lapsed carbonation, you will see that in many instances, before a beer is carbed it may gush, that's not from infection, or mixing of sugars, but because the co2 hasn't evened out- it hasn't been pulled fully into the beer. Think of it as there's a lot of co2 being generated and most of it is in the headspace, not in the beer, so there's still "over pressure" in the bottle, so it gushes when it is opened.

But when the beer is truly carbed it all evens out, across the bottles.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlBlnTfZ2iw]time lapse carbonation - YouTube[/ame]

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

And just because a beer is carbed doesn't mean it still doesn't taste like a$$ and need more time for the off flavors to condition out. You have green beer.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

Additionally once the three weeks or so has passed, chiling them down for a few days (not just a few hours or over night as most new brewers want to do ) will help the carbonation settle.

So the correct answer is, WALK AWAY for 2 more weeks.

 

[BigFloyd]

Thanks Revvy. THAT'S the video I was talking about. I just couldn't find it.

All new brewers should have to watch that video before they start threads about how their beers aren't carbed right at one or two weeks.

There's another YouTube video where a guy is popping the tops on a whole batch of premature brew in a sink and watching them geyser out. He thought they were "infected."

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Thanks Revvy, spent the last hour on YouTube. How quickly I become distracted. I can certainly relate to the new brewer anxiety by having opened bottles every five days thinking " Is it done yet?".

 

[tennesseean_87]

I have a question about this. What you guys are saying is that there has not been enough time for the CO2 to dissolve into the beer from the headspace. This causes too much head.

On the other hand, a head is produced (if I'm not mistaken) when CO2 dissolved in the beer evolves (separates from the solution) and floats to the top of the beer.

How can the CO2 which is not dissolved into the beer cause a head? I'd think it would just cause flat beer with a lot of pressure release from the headspace on opening.

 

[Revvy]

Did you watch the video? Whether you like the reasoning behind it, the phenomenon is there. It happens to a lot of people, who come back after a couple weeks and tell us that everything is fine.

 

[BigFloyd]

Well, you can debate it all day long, but it's been observed (and now video recorded) time and time again.

Maybe one of our resident scientists well versed on the factors influencing gas solubility can give us a detailed reason. Even without that, I find no problem accepting this as a well-established aspect of home brewing.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Did you watch the video? Whether you like the reasoning behind it, the phenomenon is there. It happens to a lot of people, who come back after a couple weeks and tell us that everything is fine.

Well, you can debate it all day long, but it's been observed (and now video recorded) time and time again.
Maybe one of our resident scientists well versed on the factors influencing gas solubility can give us a detailed reason. Even without that, I find no problem accepting this as a well-established aspect of home brewing.

I'm not disputing the phenomenon, but the reasoning behind it. People constantly state that too much head is from a lack of CO2, which doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm just looking for the real reason behind it. I'm a nerd, but not a science nerd, so I don't know the exact reason, but I'd like to. If it is not caused by lack of CO2 in headspace entering solution, we shouldn't keep propagating the myth of that cause for the observed phenomenon.

I did watch the video, and the first thing I noticed is that the bottle from day 5 he says is at 70 degrees (i'm not sure if he means 5 days conditioning at 70 or the current temp is at 70). On the day 11 glass he notes that it was served warm. On day 19, he says that he'll put some in the fridge on day 21 (has he not been chilling the beer at all?). Basically, the video is not very helpful since there are so many variables. He doesn't mention other factors, like how long the bottles have been chilled, if they are being chilled for different lengths of time, etc. Some of the comments on the video page pick up on this. His pouring technique is varied--day 19 has more head because it was poured more aggressively.

I know one thing that does affect solubility of gases is temperature of the liquid. Try taking a bottle that was carbed 4 weeks ago, sitting it on the radiator until it hits 80 F, then open it. It will gush.

My theory is that the observed phenomenon is not caused by lack of dissolution of CO2 (see my first post) but possibly by opening beer that hasn't been chilled properly. It would make sense that someone who can't wait a few weeks to open their beer might not be waiting for it to chill properly either. What we need is an experiment that isolates these two variables. Maybe a beer which conditioned at 70F for 5 days then chilled for 24 hours wouldn't behave like the one in the video.

I also know I'm not a science expert, so I'd love it if one would chime in to let us know about how temperature, time, etc. affect the dissolution of gas into a liquid. There may be another reason it takes time for beer to condition for proper carbonation, but I don't think it's because all the CO2 is in the headspace.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Additionally once the three weeks or so has passed, chiling them down for a few days (not just a few hours or over night as most new brewers want to do ) will help the carbonation settle.

Basically, I'm questioning whether time or temp is more important here. What is more the cause of this problem, the lack of: three weeks in bottle (time) or two days in fridge (temp and perhaps a little time for equilibrium to be reached)? It seems to me the latter is the bigger issue with a gushing bottle.

 

[tennesseean_87]

The co2 is in the headpsace and NOT in solution...but because the co2 hasn't evened out- it hasn't been pulled fully into the beer. Think of it as there's a lot of co2 being generated and most of it is in the headspace, not in the beer, so there's still "over pressure" in the bottle, so it gushes when it is opened.

But when the beer is truly carbed it all evens out, across the bottles.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

I think this is the crux of the debate. Does the CO2 take 3 weeks to even out, or does it stay evened out the entire time? I followed that link, and read the thread from which you quoted JLem. The quotes below come from a thread where some of the (seemingly) more scientifically astute posters, including JLem, whom you quoted say that the CO2 doesn't go from the headspace into the beer until it is chilled--which supports my theory.

Originally Posted by markcurling View Post
Gas only ever flows from high partial pressure to low partial pressure (i.e. towards equilibrium). Therefore CO2 will only flow into or out of the headspace in the direction of equilibrium. The CO2 is added by the yeast into the solution, which puts the CO2 in solution at a higher partial pressure than the headspace, forming a concentration gradient from the beer to the headspace.

Therefore I disagree with the wording where you say CO2 is "forced back in solution". This implies that the CO2 flows from solution, to headspace, to solution again. There can never be a time when the headspace has a higher partial pressure than the solution, so there can never be a net flow from the headspace to the beer. CO2 is added in solution, so the direction of flow can only ever be into the headspace. This is the exact opposite of force carbing, whereby you are adding CO2 to the headspace hence setting up a concentration gradient into the beer.

OK - i see your point. It's not that the headspace forces CO2 back into solution so much as the pressure in the headspace prevents CO2 from escaping from solution. However, once you lower the temperature, we've got another story - the partial pressure of the liquid will be decreased so the CO2 will flow back from the headspace to the beer...right?

Agreed

Hmm, how did I miss this thread? Anyway, I agree with everything Markcurling has said based on my limited knowledge of gas laws. Think of it this way, why do priming rate calculators need to account for the fermentation temperature constant? Because it determines how much CO2 is already in solution. It had nothing to do with building head pressure.

Also, it was mentioned that CO2 absorbs into colder beer faster. I think that's "rubbish" ;-) If anything, warmer beer would move dissolved co2 away from the surface faster. The only thing you can say really is that warmer beer requires a higher partial pressure for the same volume of dissolved CO2 but time? I don't think so, but I'm open to consider why it would. Anyone know?

This last quote deals more with the time it takes in the fridge to get some CO2 from the headspace into the beer (due to lowered temperature), which I will grant is why longer times in the fridge may be necessary.

BTW, I'm not arguing that beer is done conditioning any faster, just the carbonation issue. Some beers are better fresh, but all need to be carbed.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Revvy?

 

[BrewerBear]

I drink a lot of my beers at room temp or barely chilled,yet they still have carbonation.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Of course (equilibrium is maintained, so there is always CO2 in solution), but not as much as if you'd chilled them (colder liquid can hold more dissolved CO2). OP's problem is too much carbonation=gusher. Higher temp beer won't hold as much CO2, so once the pressure is released (cap is popped) the new equilibrium to be reached with a lower pressure means lots of CO2 leaving solution=big head/gusher. Others said that the reason there is a gusher is because there is no CO2 in beer, it's all in the headspace, which doesn't make sense.

 

[PhelanKA7]

I'm not a chemist but I have had the phenomena explained to me by one. The solubility of CO2 is represented in beverages by the presence of carbonic acid. A young beer has less carbonic acid but because of the economy of space (charge) in the solution it releases itself more readily as there is less of a charge holding it in, hence the large amount of foam that leaves a flat beer. Due to laws of solubility that you can look up yourself there is an upper limit to carbonation obviously. Leaving the beer in the refrigerator for a week to carb is a practice that seems somewhat overblown around here. An undercarbed beer might be better served from a longer storage in the fridge because of a reduction in surface tension but only so much CO2 can go into solution with a given pressure in the headspace of the bottle. In other words if you let a bottle condition long enough at room temperature a long storage in the fridge should have very little to no effect.

 

[tennesseean_87]

A young beer has less carbonic acid but because of the economy of space (charge) in the solution it releases itself more readily as there is less of a charge holding it in, hence the large amount of foam that leaves a flat beer...Leaving the beer in the refrigerator for a week to carb is a practice that seems somewhat overblown around here...In other words if you let a bottle condition long enough at room temperature a long storage in the fridge should have very little to no effect.

I'm not sure I understand about the charge (electrical charge?) and how that changes with time after carbonation. I do tend to think 12-24 hours in the fridge is fine, though. The fridge time is only important because it cools the beer, which increases the solubility of carbonic acid (CO2), right?

 

[PhelanKA7]

I'm not sure I understand about the charge (electrical charge?) and how that changes with time after carbonation. I do tend to think 12-24 hours in the fridge is fine, though. The fridge time is only important because it cools the beer, which increases the solubility of carbonic acid (CO2), right?

Correct. The way I understood it is that the beer itself is a certain pH whereas the carbonic acid is slightly lower on the pH scale and therefore has more of a negative charge and slowly binds itself into the solution through way of that differential in ion charges. So when the beer is young and some CO2 has been produced, but not enough to "fully carbonate", the beer will produce a lot of foam when poured because the CO2 hasn't bound itself well enough into the solution. After enough time most of the CO2 molecules will be bound into solution and more slowly release themselves from solution by way of atmospheric differential instead of chemical charges.

There are some folks that are regular posters in the Brew Science section of these forums that could probably better explain it than me. There is the possibility I could be misrepresenting this as science fact when I am just regurgitating what was explained to me by someone smarter at some point in the past, and I have slept since then

 

[SynthesisError]

CO2 is one of those substances with has decreased water solubility with increased temperature; It is more likely to dissolve at low temperature and high pressure. Its dissociation product does produce carbonic acid in solution, but at room temperature, the vast majority is present as dissolved molecular CO2. Thus the presence of carbonic acid is insignificant. The problem encountered by brewers is that production of CO2 by the yeast is biologically hindered in the temperature ranges where CO2 is highly soluble. The carbonation of a beer is a complicated process influenced by pressure, temperature, headspace volume, moles of CO2 present, and pH.

In my experience, the rapid carbonation of beer is a two-step process. First, the yeast must be allowed to ferment in the bottle (room temperature) to increase pressure and CO2 concentration (mostly in the headspace). Next, the beer needs to be chilled for a week or more to allow the CO2 in the headspace to be more readily dissolved in the beer, and achieve a more stable beverage. During this chill, the pressure in the bottle decreases. This prevents gushers due to a rapid pressure differential, which is caused when the CO2 already dissolved in the beer crashes out of solution violently.

Be aware that there is a distinction between the amount of head poured in a beer and the amount of CO2 dissolved in the beer. A colder beer will not pour as much head, but will still have that sparkling "bite". A warm beer with the same amount of CO2 pours more head but also goes flat faster.

If your beer pours a head that takes up half the glass, chill it at a colder temperature for a longer time. No two batches will act the same, even under a highly controlled commercial process.

 

[PhelanKA7]

CO2 is one of those substances with has decreased water solubility with increased temperature; It is more likely to dissolve at low temperature and high pressure. Its dissociation product does produce carbonic acid in solution, but at room temperature, the vast majority is present as dissolved molecular CO2. Thus the presence of carbonic acid is insignificant. The problem encountered by brewers is that production of CO2 by the yeast is biologically hindered in the temperature ranges where CO2 is highly soluble. The carbonation of a beer is a complicated process influenced by pressure, temperature, headspace volume, moles of CO2 present, and pH.

In my experience, the rapid carbonation of beer is a two-step process. First, the yeast must be allowed to ferment in the bottle (room temperature) to increase pressure and CO2 concentration (mostly in the headspace). Next, the beer needs to be chilled for a week or more to allow the CO2 in the headspace to be more readily dissolved in the beer, and achieve a more stable beverage. During this chill, the pressure in the bottle decreases. This prevents gushers due to a rapid pressure differential, which is caused when the CO2 already dissolved in the beer crashes out of solution violently.

Be aware that there is a distinction between the amount of head poured in a beer and the amount of CO2 dissolved in the beer. A colder beer will not pour as much head, but will still have that sparkling "bite". A warm beer with the same amount of CO2 pours more head but also goes flat faster.

If your beer pours a head that takes up half the glass, chill it at a colder temperature for a longer time. No two batches will act the same, even under a highly controlled commercial process.

That still doesn't explain why young beers will produce a large head (foam) but the bulk of the beer is flat. That is why I was lead to believe this was in relation to a weak bond between the CO2 and the solution itself.

 

[eric19312]

Great discussion. Thanks for linking that video Revvy. I also like it when the scientific rationale matches observed behavior. I have one point to add and a couple questions for the gallery.

I've read that a longer chill - 2 weeks in the fridge, after full carb, will improve creaminess and stability of the head.

Questions...can anyone confirm this from experience? And is the change durable? If the beer is chilled 2 weeks, then stored at room temp for a few days, then chilled for a few hours will it be any different than beer left at room temp and then chilled fr a couple hours. I'm asking because I have a beer I am going to enter into a local competition. Trying to think about best conditioning procedure. I have to submit it at end of month and the tasting will occur some time in April. I won't have control over how the beer is held between submission and tasting...

 

[tennesseean_87]

I've read that a longer chill - 2 weeks in the fridge, after full carb, will improve creaminess and stability of the head...

As mentioned, head and carbonation aren't the same thing (though you need dissolved gas for a head). I would think creamier head would have to do with proteins or dextrins or something more than carbonation. We've been discussing initial head, which has to do with how much CO2 is leaving the solution.

CO2 is one of those substances with has decreased water solubility with increased temperature;

Right

In my experience, the rapid carbonation of beer is a two-step process. First, the yeast must be allowed to ferment in the bottle (room temperature) to increase pressure and CO2 concentration (mostly in the headspace). Next, the beer needs to be chilled for a week or more to allow the CO2 in the headspace to be more readily dissolved in the beer, and achieve a more stable beverage. During this chill, the pressure in the bottle decreases. This prevents gushers due to a rapid pressure differential, which is caused when the CO2 already dissolved in the beer crashes out of solution violently.

I agree here except I'm not sure about the mostly in the headspace bit (it is more in the headspace before cooling than after) or how you get from the part about need cooler liquid for more solubility (I agree) to needing 1 week or more at cold temps.

Be aware that there is a distinction between the amount of head poured in a beer and the amount of CO2 dissolved in the beer. A colder beer will not pour as much head, but will still have that sparkling "bite". A warm beer with the same amount of CO2 pours more head but also goes flat faster.

This is why I think the problem of the OP and the guy in the video could be from warm beer, not young beer. Aggressive pour will also do this.

 

[PseudoChef]

This is why I think the problem of the OP and the guy in the video could be from warm beer, not young beer. Aggressive pour will also do this.

One of the first things the guy says in the video is that the beer is at 70 degrees. Why would anyone pour a beer at 70 degrees, and then why would people say "hey, look, it's foamy, therefore undercarbed!" when it's plainly stated it's 70 degrees?

 

[dirtybasementbrew]

So in a nut shell for us less understanding, the co2 pressure that is present early in the bottle at room temp is held in headspace. As the liquid ages this co2 desolves back into the liquid charging the liquid and freeing up some pressure from headspace. Now as we chill the liquid this frees up space in itself to allow the liquid to consume more of the co2? So if I would have chilled the beer earlier what effect would that have had then? Yeast would have slowed down? No pressure in headspace?

 

[tennesseean_87]

So in a nut shell for us less understanding, the co2 pressure that is present early in the bottle at room temp is held in headspace. As the liquid ages this co2 desolves back into the liquid charging the liquid and freeing up some pressure from headspace. Now as we chill the liquid this frees up space in itself to allow the liquid to consume more of the co2? So if I would have chilled the beer earlier what effect would that have had then? Yeast would have slowed down? No pressure in headspace?

No. Early one the CO2 is present in the headspace AND in solution. WHEN IT IS CHILLED the solubility goes up so more from the headspace enters solution, not as it ages. One poster claimed that as it ages, the charge changes and the CO2 already in solution gets more comfortable there (is this right?) so that it doesn't rush OUT OF SOLUTION when opened. This same thing also happens when the beer is chilled. There is more gas in solution and more stays in solution at cooler temps. All chilling does is lower the temp, thus increasing solubility. You shouldn't chill before yeast are done carbing. There will always be pressure in the headspace, but less at cooler temps.

I'm pretty confident about what I first said, but less so about the charge bit.