Brett Fruit Beers

[kaips1]

After drinking more than a handful of fruit lambics and amercian fruited wild/sour ales(GI Juliet most notably). I decided i need to get some brett fruit beers going. The plan was to brew 10 gallons of a brett base beer and split it into 4 secondaries with different fruits. I checked the website for Goose Island and formulated a recipe kinda similar but i didnt want the abv as high, more along the lines of a lambic. So the base recipe was like 75% 2 row and then equal parts flaked rye and rye malt, then .25lb of acid malt. I did a 100% Brett primary with 4 different brett strains: DC02( from oldsocks latest lambic) CMY01, WL 644 trois, and Iris C2, I didnt take exact measurements of how much of each yeast i used. For the fruit, i went as local as possible for 3 out of 4, handpicked local blueberries, blackberries, and raspberries. The last fruit is apricot puree from Vinters Harvest. I brewed 2 5 gallon batches of my base recipe and let them ferment for almost 90 days. I just recently did the split and fruit additions and honestly cant wait to see how they turn out. pics coming shortly

Edit: this was not done with intentions of being as good or as complex as a fruit lambic but something similar, kinda like what Crooked Stave is doing.

 

[kaips1]

Pics from the Brett's to the secondary.

 

[sweetcell]

how long are you going to leave the beer on the fruit?

looking forward to hearing your tasting notes.

 

[kaips1]

how long are you going to leave the beer on the fruit?

looking forward to hearing your tasting notes.

At least 3 months. My original plan was to purée all the fruits myself and see if I couldn't quicken the time frame up but that didnt happen. With everything being whole fruit except the apricot, 3 months is a good time frame. I look forward to this batch with moderate to high hopes, one thing I try not to have till the beer is finished.

 

[Bearfoot]

I'd also be interested in tasting notes!

And just curious, did you oxygenate either of your base beers? As for the brett, did you make starters?

 

[kaips1]

I'd also be interested in tasting notes!

And just curious, did you oxygenate either of your base beers? As for the brett, did you make starters?

I don't oxygenate my wort beside pouring it usually through a strainer and the Brett strains are all built up cultures using a stir plate. I didn't blend the cultures till brew day and tried to get an even ratio. Tried being the key word.

 

[Bearfoot]

I..tried to get an even ratio. Tried being the key word.

No worries there...the Brett will decide the pecking order on its own and the ratio will work itself naturally.

Good luck!

 

[MudduckBrewing]

Ep 41 of Fuhmentaboutit has a great interview with Brain Taylor of Goose Island about their brett dosing and aging.

http://www.heritageradionetwork.com/episodes/4728-Fuhmentaboudit-Episode-41-Brian-Taylor-of-Goose-Island

 

[Matteo57]

Hmm, interested to see how this turns out! Sounds awesome! So, to clarify, 90 days for ferment then 90 days...ish... for the fruit additions?

Looking forward to hearing about it!

 

[kaips1]

Hmm, interested to see how this turns out! Sounds awesome! So, to clarify, 90 days for ferment then 90 days...ish... for the fruit additions?

Looking forward to hearing about it!

Ya I did 90ish days on primary and I'm gonna do at least a 90 day secondary since I didn't get to purée all the fruit like I wanted too.

 

[sweetcell]

90 is overkill for primary, doncha think? when used as a primary strain brett behaves differently then in secondary. it behaves like sacch. 3 or 4 weeks should be plenty.

 

[kaips1]

90 is overkill for primary, doncha think? when used as a primary strain brett behaves differently then in secondary. it behaves like sacch. 3 or 4 weeks should be plenty.

Nah 90s not overkill, I put almost 25% adjunct that I know the Brett didnt go through in just a month and Brett actually doesn't act that different between primary and secondary. It's gonna eat what it can whenever it can. The reason secondary seems so different is the growth rate and speed of being able to eat anything sacch didn't. Also part of the reason I waited so long is because I didn't have the secondary buckets to transfer them before that. I was also expecting to take at least 6-8 months before these went into the bottle.

 

[julioohara]

I'm planning on doing a Baltic or robust Porter, let it ferment out for two weeks with a london ale yeast, then racking to a secondary with the addition of rasberries and Brett, bruxellensis for a small noticeable brett characteristic... My question to you is, how long could a beer be left (with brett) in the fruit in a secondary carboy? Since Brett does like to take it's time in eating most of the residual sugars... I appreciate your answer

 

[kaips1]

I'm planning on doing a Baltic or robust Porter, let it ferment out for two weeks with a london ale yeast, then racking to a secondary with the addition of rasberries and Brett, bruxellensis for a small noticeable brett characteristic... My question to you is, how long could a beer be left (with brett) in the fruit in a secondary carboy? Since Brett does like to take it's time in eating most of the residual sugars... I appreciate your answer

The long and the short of it is, its possible to do what you want but theres issues you may face. The thing is Brett will eat all the sugars and stuff your sacch doesnt, so if you secondary with raspberries and brett. The brett is going to overtake most of your aromas and flavors. To do what you want, I would puree the raspberries into juice then add them to a secondary with a small amount of brett, then after a 3-4 wks id check the gravity and see where it is and how much brett you have showing. If its at the flavor and aroma you want then bottle them or package them how you do and i would go light on the priming sugar because the brett will keep anything it hasnt finished and most brett strains restart a fermentation again when transfered. when its carbed up id say cold crash if not chill all the bottles and drink them as soon as possible so you dont end up with bottle bombs later. good luck and cheers.

 

[sweetcell]

Brett actually doesn't act that different between primary and secondary.

brett, when used alone (without sacch), acts very differently than when it is used in secondary after a sacch fermentation.

brett alone (no sacch) is very clean. very very little to no funk. doesn't super-attenuate, most brett-only beers finish around 1.006 to 1.010. this thread has a lot of great info on using brett trois as the primary yeast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wlp644-brett-b-trois-326861/

brett in secondary gives the funk. chad yacobson (crooked stave) posted here about what happens with brett when pitched after a sacch fermentation: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/.

 

[julioohara]

The long and the short of it is, its possible to do what you want but theres issues you may face. The thing is Brett will eat all the sugars and stuff your sacch doesnt, so if you secondary with raspberries and brett. The brett is going to overtake most of your aromas and flavors. To do what you want, I would puree the raspberries into juice then add them to a secondary with a small amount of brett, then after a 3-4 wks id check the gravity and see where it is and how much brett you have showing. If its at the flavor and aroma you want then bottle them or package them how you do and i would go light on the priming sugar because the brett will keep anything it hasnt finished and most brett strains restart a fermentation again when transfered. when its carbed up id say cold crash if not chill all the bottles and drink them as soon as possible so you dont end up with bottle bombs later. good luck and cheers.

Perfect answer my fellow homebrewer, and I thank you for that! If I had a keg I could cold crash it and force carbonate (depressurize as pressure builds up too) but I'm thinking of bottling so I might let the fermentation happen thoroughly so I dont get those infamous bottle bombs...

 

[julioohara]

brett, when used alone (without sacch), acts very differently than when it is used in secondary after a sacch fermentation.

brett alone (no sacch) is very clean. very very little to no funk. doesn't super-attenuate, most brett-only beers finish around 1.006 to 1.010. this thread has a lot of great info on using brett trois as the primary yeast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wlp644-brett-b-trois-326861/

brett in secondary gives the funk. chad yacobson (crooked stave) posted here about what happens with brett when pitched after a sacch fermentation: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/.

I really want those funky horse sweat aromas (4-ethyl phenol) in my beer to create an old school beer, and I am planning on using secondary on it too, have you done this before and obtained the funky aromas im talking about?

 

[sweetcell]

I really want those funky horse sweat aromas (4-ethyl phenol) in my beer to create an old school beer, and I am planning on using secondary on it too, have you done this before and obtained the funky aromas im talking about?

yes, i have used brett brux many times as my secondary yeast with great results. i've always gotten some funk, but it hasn't been consistent... that's certainly my fault, i'm still learning about how to handle brett. my greatest successes have been adding brett to saison. makes sense if you read Chad's post - lots for the brett to chew on and transform.

 

[kaips1]

I really want those funky horse sweat aromas (4-ethyl phenol) in my beer to create an old school beer, and I am planning on using secondary on it too, have you done this before and obtained the funky aromas im talking about?

i just thought of another couple ways to do it. you could do a secondary with brett and pitch a a lagers worth and let it ride for like a month or so and then put in the raspberry and see how much it kicks fermentation back up and depending on the gravity you could bottle without priming sugar, give it longer on the bottle condition and let the brett prime off the residuals left from the raspberries. Or you could run it all clean do a secondary of raspberries and under prime your bottles and then dose the bottles with brett and give them 3 months in the bottles to carb and also get the funk you want.

 

[kaips1]

brett, when used alone (without sacch), acts very differently than when it is used in secondary after a sacch fermentation.

brett alone (no sacch) is very clean. very very little to no funk. doesn't super-attenuate, most brett-only beers finish around 1.006 to 1.010. this thread has a lot of great info on using brett trois as the primary yeast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wlp644-brett-b-trois-326861/

brett in secondary gives the funk. chad yacobson (crooked stave) posted here about what happens with brett when pitched after a sacch fermentation: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/.

Funk levels is strain dependent, the strain chads mostly talking about is trois. i have numerous strains that dont primary "clean" but are very funky right off the bat. Brett can be super attenuative when used in primary when you adjust the ph levels, if you keep reading chads work you will see that part of the dissertation. you dont need sacch to get funk out of brett when you know what you are doing to achieve desired results.

 

[Matteo57]

How'd it taste when you transferred it?

 

[kaips1]

How'd it taste when you transferred it?

Honestly forgot to taste any of it during all the hustle and bustle of transferring. If I can go by smell, it was delicious. No esters or off putting smells.

 

[julioohara]

yes, i have used brett brux many times as my secondary yeast with great results. i've always gotten some funk, but it hasn't been consistent... that's certainly my fault, i'm still learning about how to handle brett. my greatest successes have been adding brett to saison. makes sense if you read Chad's post - lots for the brett to chew on and transform.

Funny thing is that I was reading some Brett work done by Chad in another website this morning (http://www.brettanomycesproject.com) and didnt realize it was the same guy lol, but anyways I read his post on here and it makes a lot of sense, so I will definetely go with secondary (maybe get a protein rest and higher mash temps to increase the productivity of 4-ethyls by the Brett later on) thanks sweet cell

 

[julioohara]

The long and the short of it is, its possible to do what you want but theres issues you may face. The thing is Brett will eat all the sugars and stuff your sacch doesnt, so if you secondary with raspberries and brett. The brett is going to overtake most of your aromas and flavors. To do what you want, I would puree the raspberries into juice then add them to a secondary with a small amount of brett, then after a 3-4 wks id check the gravity and see where it is and how much brett you have showing. If its at the flavor and aroma you want then bottle them or package them how you do and i would go light on the priming sugar because the brett will keep anything it hasnt finished and most brett strains restart a fermentation again when transfered. when its carbed up id say cold crash if not chill all the bottles and drink them as soon as possible so you dont end up with bottle bombs later. good luck and cheers.

Thank you kaips! I actually wrote a blog concerning my question (no replies yet) but you and others here have answered my question (a little research goes a long way) I will definetely do what you suggested it was what I originally had in mind, and Chad's Brett experience (http://www.brettanomycesproject.com) definetely proves what you say and my hypothesis Thanks again and cheers!

 

[sweetcell]

i just thought of another couple ways to do it. you could do a secondary with brett and pitch a a lagers worth and let it ride for like a month or so and then put in the raspberry and see how much it kicks fermentation back up and depending on the gravity you could bottle without priming sugar, give it longer on the bottle condition and let the brett prime off the residuals left from the raspberries. Or you could run it all clean do a secondary of raspberries and under prime your bottles and then dose the bottles with brett and give them 3 months in the bottles to carb and also get the funk you want.

seems to me this is a risky way to proceed. you don't know how low the brett will take you. it might stop at 1.006, or 1.000 - or lower. between 1.006 and 1.000 that's 3 volumes of CO2 - so depending on where the brett takes you (which you have no way of knowing in advance, especially on a new recipe) you might end up with over-carbed beer (maybe even bottle bombs), perfectly carbed beer or undercarbed. personally, i want more control over the final product. would suck to spend months fermenting this beer, only to end up with flat beer or gushers.

as kaips1 stated earlier, putting the beers in the fridge is one way to stop carbonation once it gets to the right point (assuming carbonation gets high enough to reach the right point). i don't have a dedicated beer fridge so i can't store dozens of bottles... so stopping the brett with cold isn't an option for me. also, i like to age brett beers for a year or more. beers don't develop as much at fridge temps, so i'd rather age them at cellar temps.

another alternative is pasteurizing the bottles, but i don't like the idea of cooking the beer.

 

[kaips1]

seems to me this is a risky way to proceed. you don't know how low the brett will take you. it might stop at 1.006, or 1.000 - or lower. between 1.006 and 1.000 that's 3 volumes of CO2 - so depending on where the brett takes you (which you have no way of knowing in advance, especially on a new recipe) you might end up with over-carbed beer (maybe even bottle bombs), perfectly carbed beer or undercarbed. personally, i want more control over the final product. would suck to spend months fermenting this beer, only to end up with flat beer or gushers.

if you take a gravity reading in regular monthly intervals, you can easily see where the brett is going. Then you can figure out how many vols. of co2 you want/need and if you bottle in heavy bottles you dont really have to worry about bottle bombs. If you get the belgian bottles from northern brewer, they can withstand i think 6-6.5 vols of co2. Technique, recipe, proper readings and calculations allow you to take out a lot of the variables when dealing with brett. If you build your recipe to be easily ate by the Brett then your risks of bottle bombs drops dramatically. If you do a secondary transfer with most brett strains itll kick up a secondary fermentation that can drop the finally gravity points and then a reading in a month then in 2-3 wks can ensure you that the brett has ceased most activity. If you can only bottle in regular 12oz bottles and the gravity of the beer has stabilized then you can underpitch, not a lot, just like a .5 vol of co2 and let it bottle condition for a couple weeks longer than you normally do. You will want your conditioning time to be in the low 70's. One thing that can fix undercarbed brett beers is time. One important thing is, you shouldnt put Brett on a timetable because it does what it will. Research and your hydrometer are your best friends.

 

[sweetcell]

if you take a gravity reading in regular monthly intervals, you can easily see where the brett is going.

yes, completely agreed. but i was referring to bottle-priming with brett - that's when the risk of bottle bombs is highest, because you don't know what the FG will end up, at least not the first time you do a recipe. giving the brett 6+ month to hit FG in secondary should take care of residual sugars and ward off the threat of bombs. that being said, all brett beers should still be put in thick glass bottles IMO. brett does weird things under pressure. i had one batch that clearly started a third round of fermentation in the bottle, every beer was a borderline gusher. there must have been 5+ volumes in there, the only way to drink them was to slowly vent them by barely lifting up the cap several times over 24 hours. and this beer had spent 7 or 8 months in secondary. brett is weird.

 

[kaips1]

yes, completely agreed. but i was referring to bottle-priming with brett - that's when the risk of bottle bombs is highest, because you don't know what the FG will end up, at least not the first time you do a recipe. giving the brett 6+ month to hit FG in secondary should take care of residual sugars and ward off the threat of bombs. that being said, all brett beers should still be put in thick glass bottles IMO. brett does weird things under pressure. i had one batch that clearly started a third round of fermentation in the bottle, every beer was a borderline gusher. there must have been 5+ volumes in there, the only way to drink them was to slowly vent them by barely lifting up the cap several times over 24 hours. and this beer had spent 7 or 8 months in secondary. brett is weird.

If you don't put a lot of Brett into the priming solution and do the math between your estimated volumes of co2 and FG you can adjust your gravity of your priming solution and use a vial from WL, there there cultures are so small you shouldn't have to worry about bottles exploding. This is speaking for a 5 gal batch. Obviously this won't work if the beer finishes at 1.016 but then you should just add Brett too the beer and let it do its job.

 

[NuclearRich]

If you don't put a lot of Brett into the priming solution and do the math between your estimated volumes of co2 and FG you can adjust your gravity of your priming solution and use a vial from WL, there there cultures are so small you shouldn't have to worry about bottles exploding. This is speaking for a 5 gal batch. Obviously this won't work if the beer finishes at 1.016 but then you should just add Brett too the beer and let it do its job.

I don't think the amount of Brett you add at bottling really matters, it is already in solution (if primary was brett), and it isnt going to prevent it from digesting the sugars (even if you only add a small culture as a bottle refermenting strain, and did primary with sacc). The brett will see the sugar and eat it. If theres less of it, it *may* just take longer (but theres already yeast in solution from primary, so thats doubtful).

All of these what-ifs are convoluting the bottle refermentation idea. It is still simple, wait for a consistent terminal SG reading, calculate priming and bottle away. Just dont make it even more convoluted by using a partially fermentable sugar as your priming source.

 

[kaips1]

All of these what-ifs are convoluting the bottle refermentation idea. It is still simple, wait for a consistent terminal SG reading, calculate priming and bottle away. Just dont make it even more convoluted by using a partially fermentable sugar as your priming source.

Did you read what the question was, that started this whole conversation?

 

[NuclearRich]

Did you read what the question was, that started this whole conversation?

Yes.... I did....
That's why I responded.

If you don't put a lot of Brett into the priming solution and do the math between your estimated volumes of co2 and FG you can adjust your gravity of your priming solution and use a vial from WL, there there cultures are so small you shouldn't have to worry about bottles exploding.

Doing the math isnt going to help you know how much lower the brett will take it, because you just dont know, especially when you add fruit. You can guess, but its a risk.
Also, If you put a single cell of Brett in, you run the same risk as if you dump a lager starter of brett in. It is going to do the same work, it will take longer perhaps, but it isnt going to help your math. Don't think you know where the gravity is going by the trend on the hydro. Wait until its stable. There are too many variables with Brett to take shortcuts with guessing.
My personal preference would be to avoid bottle bombs and gushers. Do you really know how much sugar is in the fruit if you are going to not let it ferment out, and bottle? Sugar levels in fruit are an average, and especially variable if the source is a garden or small local farm. Not something I would mess with when talking about Brett secondary. Safety first, and a close second is not wasting beer that has potential to be delicious.

I'm planning on doing a Baltic or robust Porter, let it ferment out for two weeks with a london ale yeast, then racking to a secondary with the addition of rasberries and Brett, bruxellensis for a small noticeable brett characteristic... My question to you is, how long could a beer be left (with brett) in the fruit in a secondary carboy? Since Brett does like to take it's time in eating most of the residual sugars... I appreciate your answer

As stated, you shouldnt put Brett on a timetable because it does what it will. Research and your hydrometer are your best friends. You could leave it in there for years if you wanted.
I disagree that the brett funk will overtake the rest of the beer's flavor, a baltic porter with raspberrise is going to have a lot going on, so the brett funk is going to need a lot to overcome those base flavors. First and foremost, after secondary for a good month or two, take gravity readings every week or two until it is rock solid stable. Then you could bottle as normal. If you plan to long term age it, err on the side of caution: heavy glass, for priming sugar use a formal calculation that accounts for temperature, beer volume, and is weighed by grams (or oz) not by measuring cup.

 

[kaips1]

Do you really know how much sugar is in the fruit if you are going to not let it ferment out, and bottle? Sugar levels in fruit are an average, and especially variable if the source is a garden or small local farm.

ya actually you can take reading off the fruit. like i have stated before, pureeing the fruit, will allow the yeast to get at all the sugars faster and easier but it will also allow you take a hyrdometer reading or a refractometer reading. then you do the math between what your fg(before fruit) is of your wort and what the gravity is of the fruit and you adjust things like time and priming solution. when the question of having a raspberry porter with brett came up, they said slight brett character, that to me says orval. a bottling addition of brett, something that doesnt come out the gate as bretty but grows over time. If youre fg after the yeast and fruit do their thing then the only logical way to go would be......then youd be forced to add brett in the secondary and hope that it runs through quick so its no just a brett porter because brett can swallow up all those aromas you might have wanted from the fruit and original yeast/malt bill(Yes brett can and will take over and change any and all flavors and aromas, thats what it does). As far as bottle bombs or gushers, well that goes back to that simple thing called math, not once have i suggest to anyone to bottle a higher than usual fg of a brett beer and i hardly suggest anyone to bottle in anything other than heavy glass. unless you know what you are doing.

 

[NuclearRich]

ya actually you can take reading off the fruit. like i have stated before, pureeing the fruit, will allow the yeast to get at all the sugars faster and easier but it will also allow you take a hyrdometer reading or a refractometer reading. then you do the math between what your fg(before fruit) is of your wort and what the gravity is of the fruit and you adjust things like time and priming solution. when the question of having a raspberry porter with brett came up, they said slight brett character, that to me says orval. a bottling addition of brett, something that doesnt come out the gate as bretty but grows over time. If youre fg after the yeast and fruit do their thing then the only logical way to go would be......then youd be forced to add brett in the secondary and hope that it runs through quick so its no just a brett porter because brett can swallow up all those aromas you might have wanted from the fruit and original yeast/malt bill(Yes brett can and will take over and change any and all flavors and aromas, thats what it does). As far as bottle bombs or gushers, well that goes back to that simple thing called math, not once have i suggest to anyone to bottle a higher than usual fg of a brett beer and i hardly suggest anyone to bottle in anything other than heavy glass. unless you know what you are doing.

Settle down chief. Im not angry, are you? I just wanted to add (something that may be a different POV than your own) to the advice you were giving the other poster. I like what you are doing in the OP, and look forward to your results.

 

[NuclearRich]

ya actually you can take reading off the fruit. like i have stated before, pureeing the fruit, will allow the yeast to get at all the sugars faster and easier but it will also allow you take a hyrdometer reading or a refractometer reading.

Also, I understand that you can take the measurement. What I am getting at, is that a fruit puree is not a good source for measurement. How much of the fruit solids in solution are unfermentable? If you squeeze the juice out and measure it in a refractometer or hydrometer, you are only measuring the juice and not accounting for what is left in the fruit solids. The most accurate measurements would need an accurate source, so in the above mentioned case, you would want to use pure juice. If you do secondary fermentation on the fruit, pureed fruit is fine.

 

[kaips1]

Added the Chardonnay soaked oak to each bucket. Bottling next month.

 

[kaips1]

Bottling the apricot


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[kaips1]

Bottled the blackberry Brett today.


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[Coff]

The Pellicles you folks using buckets on these brett beers look amazing, alot of o2 exposure it would seem. I barely get a pellicle in my Better Bottles and glass carboys until I pull a sample. Which usually isnt for 3 months.

I was on a kick with Brett Saisons with fruit in the summer/fall, they both turned out fantastic. I did one with Mangos that I pureed then racked onto for 3 months and the other was fresh NJ Peaches from a farm in South Jersey. I went with 1.25lbs of fruit per gallon, and the ECY03 brett blend. I plan to do many more when fruit season rolls around again.

Cheers!

 

[Matteo57]

I might have missed it, but how did they all taste so far uncarbed?

 

[kaips1]

Honestly in hustle and bustle of bottling I forgot to sample them, if aroma is any indicator. They smelled luscious, fruit and Brett. I'll have to remember to take a sip of the other two when I bottle them.


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