Boiling the mash

[applescrap]

Since I don't own any testing equipment or know how to use it, I need a little help in testing out some stuff. I am very curious what would happen if one boiled the mash while stirring it. I wonder how quickly conversion would occur and what the results would be.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Conventional wisdom indicates that at around 170 degrees F. enzymes would begin to be destroyed, and that the likelihood for nasty tasting astringency would be increased. If starch to sugar conversion takes place fully before all enzymatic activity ceases, this aspect would be a moot point. And mash pH may mitigate the astringency point.

Perhaps you have just consigned yourself to the undertaking of a Brulosophy 'like' experiment. Let the taste testers (and your own taste buds) be your guide to the consequences.

 

[pigroaster]

The mash needs to be at a temperature range for conversion of starches to take place, You should be between 146 and 156 F to get the job done. Yes a little lower and higher can work but this is the sweet spot. I use 153 most of the time since 1971. You need a mentor! I am sure their are lots reading this. Enjoy the ride but fell free to ask before you get frustrated.

 

[eric19312]

Try looking up decoction mashing. This is technique where you remove a portion of the mash and boil it, and then return it to the main mash to increase the temperature of the main mash and take the mash from one temperature step to another.

 

[applescrap]

Conventional wisdom indicates that at around 170 degrees F. enzymes would begin to be destroyed, and that the likelihood for nasty tasting astringency would be increased. If starch to sugar conversion takes place fully before all enzymatic activity ceases, this aspect would be a moot point. And mash pH may mitigate the astringency point.

Perhaps you have just consigned yourself to the undertaking of a Brulosophy 'like' experiment. Let the taste testers (and your own taste buds) be your guide to the consequences.

Thats right, we have all heard about the dreaded tannins or astringency. But to me common sense would reveal otherwise, when considering decoction. If boiling the mash did all that, then why has this been a viable method for so many years. Many claiming it makes the best beer. They take 1/3 of the mash and boil it three times. Sometimes longer than 20 minutes if I am correct. Brulosophy did an xbmt, and tasters couldn't reliably distinguish a triple decoction from a single infusion. So I am wondering what would happen if we just boil the mash. Would conversion happen rapidly and beer taste the same.

 

[Gravity]

Try looking up decoction mashing. This is technique where you remove a portion of the mash and boil it, and then return it to the main mash to increase the temperature of the main mash and take the mash from one temperature step to another.

My thoughts exactly or step mashing

Lately I've been doing 150, no decoction/steps

 

[applescrap]

I think it's safe to say going forward, that posting on this thread that 152° mash is good, correct, etc... is not helpful. We, i, need someone to boil a mash. Maybe not even a 5g batch, but a 1g batch. I've seen people test for conversion but it all looks the same to me and I don't own anything to test conversion or gravity or anything. Somebody has to be eager and interested in giving this a test. Two or three pounds 2 row boiled and tested, anyone?

 

[applescrap]

Try looking up decoction mashing. This is technique where you remove a portion of the mash and boil it, and then return it to the main mash to increase the temperature of the main mash and take the mash from one temperature step to another.

That's right, that's exactly the spirit behind this. Because of this technique how did it ever come to pass that anything above 170 released tannins, when these mashes are boiled, sometimes 3x and for extended time. I think, my hypothesis is, that one can dance in the Moonlight with their Mash on their head. And in the long run it's going to taste like somebody didn't dance in the Moonlight.

 

[eric19312]

That's right, that's exactly the spirit behind this. Because of this technique how did it ever come to pass that anything above 170 released tannins, when these mashes are boiled, sometimes 3x and for extended time. I think, my hypothesis is, that one can dance in the Moonlight with their Mash on their head. And in the long run it's going to taste like somebody didn't dance in the Moonlight.

I believe the answer is the pH. The full mash before you start to sparge should have pH down around 5.4. Hard to extract tannins there. The issue with hot sparge water is that as you sparge you rinse away the buffers and the pH increases and it becomes easier to extract tannins. This is why we are advised to not sparge further than SG 1.010 and keep sparge water at about 170 or lower and to lightly acidify sparge water. There are some styles (lambic?) where a bit of tannin extraction is desirable and in those beers you don't acidify the sparge water, do push the sparge below 1.010 and do sparge with hot hot water, maybe 190F.

 

[d3track]

Why don't you do it yourself?
Two brews 1) boil strike water, add grist, ramp to boil for xx minutes 2) conventional mash

Take gravity readings and photos for color/clarity at 1)run off, pre boil, OG, FG

Also record fermentation times.

Then bobs your uncle and you have your first data points.

 

[applescrap]

Why don't you do it yourself?
Two brews 1) boil strike water, add grist, ramp to boil for xx minutes 2) conventional mash

Take gravity readings and photos for color/clarity at 1)run off, pre boil, OG, FG

Also record fermentation times.

Then bobs your uncle and you have your first data points.

Hear ya. I alluded to why I shouldnt earlier. There are people here, way more talented than me for an assignment like this too. I'm not the right person to do it, but thinking about decoction and mash and the effects is a worthy conversation none the less.

 

[Yooper]

Hear ya. I alluded to why I shouldnt earlier. There are people here, way more talented than me for an assignment like this too. I'm not the right person to do it, but thinking about decoction and mash and the effects is a worthy conversation none the less.

If you stayed at 145-160 or so for at least 20 minutes, the mash would convert.

If the pH wasn't over about 6, you could boil it forever after that and it would be fine.

If you just added grains to boiling water, the enzymes would denature and you would have cereal.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks Yooper. Cereal creation makes sense. I picture malt o meal. Do you know what would happen if it was only boiled for a short time? I don't understand why it doesn't denature in decoction mash or maybe it does, I am in unfamiliar water (bad beer humor). I wonder if the grains were heated to boil with water? With Brew in a bag I'm not sure working with boiling water is ideal, but I can't help but wonder if conversion and wort could be created quicker.

It would be a simple stove top test. 1.4 gallons water and 2.3 pounds of grain. Boiled and tested for conversion and gravity. All charted out nice and neat. Maybe testing different amounts of water. Maybe running the test until it totally denatures. Idk.

Now I'm starting to wonder about agitation. As I understand you advocate stirring, and that's information I've gleaned here. What if the wort was recirculating let's say, which I guess is already happening, but lets say the grain is agitated at the same time. Or somehow some temperature is kept and the grain is agitated. When I dough in and whip the grains and water with my cheap white plastic mash spatula, I start to see some pretty serious changes in the water. I'm aware that conversion can happen quickly but anecdotally people have felt more time created a better wort. If constant agitation was included, would it be better. Sorry, my weekly wonderings here.

 

[kh54s10]

To further on what Yooper said. A decoction is only boiling a portion of the mash. And that portion is taken after the mash has had some time. Adding the boiling portion back to the mash raises the grainbed temperature some but not to boiling. If you boiled from the get go, I don't think you would get conversion. At least not a good amount of conversion. That is what a mashout does. After the mash time and before doing up to an hour long fly sparge you heat the grain bed to 170+ to STOP the conversion and lock in the desired profile at the end of the mash. At least this is a description in simplistic terms.

 

[doug293cz]

The enzymes in a mash are mostly in the liquid. That's why when you take the decoction fraction, you take as much grain, and as little liquid as possible. All the enzymes in the boiled portion are denatured. Luckily, you've left most of your enzymes in the unboiled portion of the mash, so you still have enzymes left when you add back the boiled portion, so conversion can continue.

Brew on

 

[kh54s10]

The enzymes in a mash are mostly in the liquid. That's why when you take the decoction fraction, you take as much grain, and as little liquid as possible. All the enzymes in the boiled portion are denatured. Luckily, you've left most of your enzymes in the unboiled portion of the mash, so you still have enzymes left when you add back the boiled portion, so conversion can continue.

Brew on

That is what I was trying to say......

 

[processhead]

From what I understand, the history of docoction mashing predates the invention of the thermometer.

It gave brewers a predictable way to step mash through the normal temperature range for mashing at a time when they had no way know or measure the temperature of the mash.

By just bringing a known volume of the mash up to boiling and then adding it back to the mash, a brewer could get repeatable temperature steps and conversion without ever having to know the actual temperature of the mash.

As was mentioned, during decoction brewing, at no time is the entire mash brought to a boil, just a portion of it.

 

[PatrickLS83]

I think you're in for some strange results. If you don't hold the mash in that 150 range for long enough the enzymes that perform saccarification won't have long enough to break up the sugars into fermentables. I'm not sure what kind of flavors you'd be dealing with but from sugar perspective I think you would find that your OG is pretty much in line with expectations, but your FG will be very high because most of the sugar is un-fermentable due to the skipped saccarification. Plus it sounds like a mess. Interesting question though! I'm following because I'm curious what will happen if you try it.

 

[cblambert1645]

Decoction mashing was to increase temps while retaining body...basically to prevent complete conversion of a portion to some degree while stepping the temps up to increase fermentability of the bulk of the mash.

 

[NeoBrew]

If someone has the time and energy to do such an experiment, more power to them.

But why would we even care? What benefits to brewing would this possibly bring?

In any good scientific experiment, you start with a hypothesis, then design an experiment around it, not the other way around.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I was thinking along the same lines. What potential benefit would lend sufficient inspiration to drive anyone to even attempt this? I suspect that lautering may prove difficult to impossible once the grist is turned into a gelatinous goo of cooked breakfast cereal. Can you say stuck sparge?

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[applescrap]

But why would we even care? What benefits to brewing would this possibly bring?

Haha the royal we.

Well YOU might not care regardless of what I have to say and you might depending on what I have to say. Based on the tone of your post is it fair of me to think that you are happy with how you brew and feel it is a generally good/well accepted way of brewing? If so, then you might not care. It is not wrong of you for that or wrong if you arent even a little curious about the result just as some interesting fyi, brewing stuff.

I care if nothing else for the general interest of it. But also i care because i could brew i think in 1hr 45 mins, maybe it yields more sugar, maybe not, maybe it could taste better, maybe it changes the color, maybe its a better way. I am not married to my process and i am willling to reconsider pretty much every aspect.

 

[Yooper]

Haha the royal we.

Well YOU might not care regardless of what I have to say and you might depending on what I have to say. Based on the tone of your post is it fair of me to think that you are happy with how you brew and feel it is a generally good/well accepted way of brewing? If so, then you might not care. It is not wrong of you for that or wrong if you arent even a little curious about the result just as some interesting fyi, brewing stuff.

I care if nothing else for the general interest of it. But also i care because i could brew i think in 1hr 45 mins, maybe it yields more sugar, maybe not, maybe it could taste better, maybe it changes the color, maybe its a better way. I am not married to my process and i am willling to reconsider pretty much every aspect.

I like the idea of experimentation- but if the mash doesn't convert, and it won't if you don't do any sort of saccrification rest- what good is the experiment?

I could liken this to another experiment. I don't know all that much about electricity, but from my experience with it I can be assured that if I put my tongue into the receptacle, I will not like the results. I also know based on my brewing experience that if a mash isn't in the wide temperature range for enzymatic activity to convert the mash, I will not like the results.

There isn't anything unexpected about getting shocked, nor not having conversion.

You can get conversion (without boiling the mash) in under 20 minutes. It would take longer to bring it to a boil than that, so I don't see how it could possibly "save time" anyway.

The reason I"m a naysayer isn't because I'm a no-it-all trying to stop people from experimenting. I'm a naysayer in this because it's something that from experience I know is ridiculous. You can boil mash all you want- if you didn't have time for the mash to convert, you're making cereal. If you had enough time for the mash to convert, you've done a decoction. Nothing "experimental" about that!

 

[applescrap]

^^exactly an aggressive stir to boil and by that time conversion is done, go on brewing. Only heat time required, that would put me under two hours. It is also plausible that flavor could be affected perhaps for the better.

 

[tjpfeister]

I skimmed this, I didnt see any mention of at what point the lauter was to be performed.

 

[applescrap]

Agreed how, when?

 

[tjpfeister]

Well, Im on board with your notion to save time and potentially develope decoction-like flavors... But I think the lauter becomes the hitch. First, boiling mash is likely to be messy, ever make oatmeal on top the stove? The bubbles are going to burp, fart, and splatter everywhere. Then comes the lauter, normally you would want that grain bed to rest and settle on its own, this will not occur with boiling and stirring. So, in the interest of time, you would need to take some pointers from the BIAB guys. I want you to try it, Ive got my serious doubts, but Im down to hear your results. I just dont think your 1hr 45min goal is realistic, Im afraid that lauter and chilling is going to add at least (and probably more than) another hour. Good luck though!

If i could propose a compromise method? Maybe stir your mash with a heatstick? This would alleviate the concerns we all have over conversion, as the temp ramp would likely take 30 minutes or more to pass through the 140-170 range... the direct heating of thick mash would give you some of those maillard reaction you are after, and the constant heating would be moving you towards your end goal. Just a thought.

 

[applescrap]

Awesome ideas tj. Good concerns and considerations. I have shared quite a bit about quick brewing on a thread called more quick brewing. I brew in a little over 2.5 hours now. I also warm ferment lagers if interested at all.

Before beer is made or its considered being viable for brewing a simple test of conversion and gravity would be worth doing. I want a nice chart showing room temp to boil - times, conversion, gravity along the spectrum and through a little boiling, i guess until oatmeal. And conversely maybe grains dropped in boiling water - charted conversion and gravity. Coupled with anecdotal information, pictures, and unbiased thoughts.

The information above could help form the lauter process. For ex if grains dropped in boil works quickly then maybe it gets batch sparged, full volume drained, or, gulp, bag pulled. For example anyways.

 

[mbobhat]

So ok I'll bite, do you know how enzymes work or have at least a little bit of information on that? That is essentially mashing, getting enzymes to convert starches, so if you knew about that then you would understand why boiling ALL of the wort seems ridiculous to everyone here.

 

[applescrap]

Look bobhat (and yooper), its just an idea, it doesn't have to be "ridiculous". Its exploration, and lord I know how scary and threatening that can be, but its ok. Its ok if it does work, and its ok if it doesnt work. It doesnt have to always be right v wrong or one better than the other. It can be just different and they both work, like rims and herms.

Here is some food for thought, science and knowledge tells us all kinds of stuff. But yet in real life it doesnt always work out that way. Ideas on these issues are all set in stone right? Or maybe not.

No chill
Ferment in vessel
Biab
Hot side aeration
Dms
Boil times
Flameout vs whirlpool
Mash temp
Fermentation temp
Plastic vs glass fer. vessel
Biotransformation
Doritos in beer

 

[d3track]

^^exactly an aggressive stir to boil and by that time conversion is done, go on brewing. Only heat time required, that would put me under two hours. It is also plausible that flavor could be affected perhaps for the better.

Then just do it and document it. If you have ever brewed a batch, you should have all of the equipment you need: Kettle, lauter tun, thermometer, hydrometer, fermenter.

Along the lines of this and other posts, you're just throwing things out there without a hypothesis on what the outcome will be, and that is not adding value to the community.

 

[Turkeyshot]

Look bobhat (and yooper), its just an idea, it doesn't have to be "ridiculous". Its exploration, and lord I know how scary and threatening that can be, but its ok. Its ok if it does work, and its ok if it doesnt work. It doesnt have to always be right v wrong or one better than the other. It can be just different and they both work, like rims and herms.

Well if you did this as a BIAB that would make sparging easy. But if you are raising the grain up to boiling temperature it is basically a decoction. And if you were to drop the grains into boiling water you pretty much made cereal.

So in the end this is ridiculous and pretty much a waste of time. Somehow I imagine that in the history of making beer this would have been tried already. And if there was a positive result, we would be brewing this way.

 

[doug293cz]

@applescrap , As you can see, you seem to be the only one interested in conducting this experiment. So, if you don't do it, it's very unlikely to get done. You haven't made enough of a case, that it might have some benefit, for anyone else to exhibit any enthusiasm for it.

If you believe it has merit, go for it. You don't need to get all of the desired data from the first experiment. Just get what you can: conversion efficiency, lauter efficiency (which will require appropriate SG and volume measurements), some tasting notes from the finished beer, and reports on anything of note that happened during the process. If after the first iteration, you have any positive results to report, you may be able to generate a higher level of interest by others.

Brew on

 

[Sadu]

Yep. 1 gallon batch, give it a try to ease your curiosity. No big deal if it doesn't work out, and 1 gallon batches are quick to boil and easy to chill.
Nothing to lose by giving it a go. Just I don't think you will find anyone else willing to run the experiment for you.

 

[applescrap]

@applescrap , As you can see, you seem to be the only one interested in conducting this experiment. So, if you don't do it, it's very unlikely to get done. You haven't made enough of a case, that it might have some benefit, for anyone else to exhibit any enthusiasm for it.

If you believe it has merit, go for it. You don't need to get all of the desired data from the first experiment. Just get what you can: conversion efficiency, lauter efficiency (which will require appropriate SG and volume measurements), some tasting notes from the finished beer, and reports on anything of note that happened during the process. If after the first iteration, you have any positive results to report, you may be able to generate a higher level of interest by others.

Brew on

Thanks Doug for the thoughts. I cant do the experiment because I dont know how to and have the equipment to measure anything. Being honest, I was hoping a brilliant mind like yourself would give this a go. I hope that somebody takes this on and if not someday I'll probably have the equipment to test.

 

[RaHarmakis]

The thing is, Enzyme activity is a very well known process. Many actual scientists (both at big breweries, and in other fields) have done many scientific experiments, and wrote many papers and books and lectures explaining what happens to various enzymes at various temperatures.

So Some Basic Facts that cannot be worked around regarding Enzymes:

1: Temperature- The enzymes need a specific range of Temps in order to work at their most effective. Below this range they may still work, but do so very slowly. above this range, THEY DIE. We call it denature.. BUT THEY DIE. when they are dead or denatured, they no longer work.

So High Temperatures = No Enzymes = No Conversion = No Fermentable Sugars for the Yeast to eat = No Beer

2: Time - The Enzymes don't convert every starch instantly. This process takes time. Factors such as Grist/Water Ratio & and where in the proper temp range you are at can impact the time that conversion takes. It could take as little as 20 min, or it could take well over 90 min.

Honestly there is no need for an experiment on this one, as they results are pretty clear to those of us who have rudimentary or better grasp on how the Enzymes work.

You want to take a pot of Mash, and raise it to boiling as quickly as possible. As others have mentioned. You will very quickly kill off all of the enzymes. There is a chance that you will get some sugars converted as the temperature rises, but long before the boil, you will have eliminated all of the enzymes required for conversion leaving the vast majority of the starches as starches and not as sugars.

Again No Enzymes = No Conversion = No Beer

This site has some pretty good info graphics explaining the process: http://www.biokemi.org/biozoom/issues/522/articles/2368

So you asked what would happen. We know what would happen. you would get a pot of Barley Oatmeal that would not get you beer.

 

[Adub71]

I believe the answer is the pH. The full mash before you start to sparge should have pH down around 5.4. Hard to extract tannins there. The issue with hot sparge water is that as you sparge you rinse away the buffers and the pH increases and it becomes easier to extract tannins. This is why we are advised to not sparge further than SG 1.010 and keep sparge water at about 170 or lower and to lightly acidify sparge water. There are some styles (lambic?) where a bit of tannin extraction is desirable and in those beers you don't acidify the sparge water, do push the sparge below 1.010 and do sparge with hot hot water, maybe 190F.

The thickness of the wort, and the pH, combine to protect the enzymes during decoction boiling.

 

[processhead]

The thickness of the wort, and the pH, combine to protect the enzymes during decoction boiling.

That is an interesting notion. Exactly what is the process by which the enzymes are "protected" from the denaturing effects of elevated temperatures and boiling?

 

[jerbrew]

@applescrap Can you bring it to a boil, boil it, pull a sample, then hit it with a bit of iodine? Not exactly the perfect test and it won't give you anything quantifiable but it will let you know if you have all of your starches converted In the time it took you to boil the wort. Just a thought. It seems that you can do at least some sort of test on your own that will give you some information. If its converted you will know that it can work and go for a full batch. Also, I think that a thin full volume BIAB and a simple grain bill with as much diastatic power as possible would be your best best on getting the straches converted before you've denatured the enzymes we rely on. Furthermore, if you only care about time, and not so much about money, maybe even try adding some amylayse enzyme, like this, to the mash before hand to help speed things up.

 

[cmac62]

Interesting thread, but I'm with most of the others, if you boil mash you make cereal. For the flavors a decon mash can add I usually just extend the boil time. Ive done 2 + hour boils for a barley wine or Wee heavy. Lots of kettle carmalization and non-fermentable sugars created.

Beer is good, good beer is great, and great beer @#%$$@#.