Boil kettle element placement?

[SmokeyMcBong]

Hey all,

I'm trying to set up an electric bk for apartment use. I don't have access to 240v but I do have two separate 120 plugs close together so, I picked up two 1500w 120v elements. I'm gonna install both but was wondering if one above the other or both at the same level would be best? Or maybe it doesn't matter?

Any help would be appreciated. :rockin:

 

[augiedoggy]

Hey all,

I'm trying to set up an electric bk for apartment use. I don't have access to 240v but I do have two separate 120 plugs close together so, I picked up two 1500w 120v elements. I'm gonna install both but was wondering if one above the other or both at the same level would be best? Or maybe it doesn't matter?

Any help would be appreciated. :rockin:

I vote both as low as possilbe to make it as least likely to dry fire them and burn them up.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm trying to set up an electric bk for apartment use. I don't have access to 240v but I do have two separate 120 plugs close together so, I picked up two 1500w 120v elements. I'm gonna install both but was wondering if one above the other or both at the same level would be best? Or maybe it doesn't matter?

You need to make sure the outlets are on different circuits. Otherwise you will be trying to pull (2*1500)/120 = 25 amps thru the same circuit. Will end up tripping the breaker.

Brew on

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

You need to make sure the outlets are on different circuits. Otherwise you will be trying to pull (2*1500)/120 = 25 amps thru the same circuit. Will end up tripping the breaker.

Brew on

I tested the two outlets already. One was running my 1600w electric bbq and the other my gf's 1600w hair dryer. I ran them for a while with no problems but once I plugged both into the same outlet, it popped the breaker in a couple of seconds.

Is there any problem with grounding two separate elements which will run on separate circuits to the same pot? I don't think so but figured I'd ask.

 

[doug293cz]

I tested the two outlets already. One was running my 1600w electric bbq and the other my gf's 1600w hair dryer. I ran them for a while with no problems but once I plugged both into the same outlet, it popped the breaker in a couple of seconds.

Is there any problem with grounding two separate elements which will run on separate circuits to the same pot? I don't think so but figured I'd ask.

Forgot to note that both circuits (outlets) need to be GFCI protected. The breakers protect the wiring and building structure. The GFCI's protect YOU!

There is an effect known as "ground loop" which is detrimental under some conditions. I'm not sure if it would be a problem for this use. Anyone with more expertise care to weigh in?

Brew on

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Forgot to note that both circuits (outlets) need to be GFCI protected.
Brew on

I was gonna install a regular bathroom gfci outlet into a box along with an on/off switch. I would plug the box into the wall and the element into the box. That should cover it I hope?

Something along the lines of http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Plug-In-Sock...618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abbd34732

 

[doug293cz]

I was gonna install a regular bathroom gfci outlet into a box along with an on/off switch. I would plug the box into the wall and the element into the box. That should cover it I hope?

Something along the lines of http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Plug-In-Sock...618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abbd34732

Works if you have a box with GFCI for each element.

Why not just replace the current outlets with GFCI's? Are the outlets in the kitchen or other water exposed area? If they are, then they should already be GFCI protected, unless your apartment is old. If they are not already protected, tell the landlord that you want them protected, and offer to do it yourself (assuming local codes don't prohibit doing your own work on rental property.)

Brew on

 

[jeffmeh]

works if you have a box with gfci for each element.

Why not just replace the current outlets with gfci's? Are the outlets in the kitchen or other water exposed area? If they are, then they should already be gfci protected, unless your apartment is old. If they are not already protected, tell the landlord that you want them protected, and offer to do it yourself (assuming local codes don't prohibit doing your own work on rental property.)

brew on

+1.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

After some quick googling it seems that what I'm after (two circuits grounded to the same point) can only work if each circuit is on the opposite phase of a split 240. If they're both on the same phase, a hole opens up in the floor and I get sucked into hell.

Edit: I could just replace the outlet but I guess I can only run one element so it'll have to be in my kitchen on the stove top. The kitchen already has gfic plugs.

 

[Zepth]

General consensus is that lower is better. I would recommend a little space underneath the lowest just to ensure you can get under there with a brush or steel wool to take care of cooked on crud after use.

Not too sure if it's too late for you to return the 120v elements, but...
I am an indoor brewer as of recently and decided to just move the stove and have access to that outlet. It has 2X the capacity I need with a 5500w element (though running at a max of 4100w as a result of 208v <from 3 phase, long story>). Alternatively if you have kitchen split plugs where there are two breakers for a pair of plugs (meaning each has a dedicated breaker), but are bridged in the box so if one goes they both turn off. If you have one of these you could make a custom input to control panel where you plug into both top and bottom plug, then bridge the hot wires to get 240v. The breaker panel will view it exactly the same as a 240v 15A or 20A (depending on age of building) circuit.

*disclaimer: Not an electrician. Consult code and regulations before any wiring. Ask a pro. Hire a pro. Don't blame me. If anyone reads this post and my information is terribly inaccurate please correct me for the sake of having the best information available.

Edit: easy way to check if it's a split plug is to use a multimeter on both hot sides of a single gang outlet. 208v = 3 phase power building split plug, 240v = split plug, 0v = single phase, 120v = consult electrician, something ain't right.

 

[doug293cz]

After some quick googling it seems that what I'm after (two circuits grounded to the same point) can only work if each circuit is on the opposite phase of a split 240. If they're both on the same phase, a hole opens up in the floor and I get sucked into hell.

Can you post some links to what you found about grounding. I'd like to understand why it wouldn't work.

Brew on

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/12868/can-two-circuits-share-a-neutral

Is one of them. The question is different but somewhere in there they talk about if both are on the same phase, they fire together and the ground will send back double the amps. In my case I guess 30 amps returning from two 15 amps.

 

[doug293cz]

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/12868/can-two-circuits-share-a-neutral

Is one of them. The question is different but somewhere in there they talk about if both are on the same phase, they fire together and the ground will send back double the amps. In my case I guess 30 amps returning from two 15 amps.

That link talks about sharing a neutral, which is different than the ground. You don't want your kettle connected to neutral. The ground wires are not supposed to carry any current, whereas the neutral carries all the load current. You don't want to connect neutral to ground anywhere (except in your main load panel/breaker box.) My knowledge of ground loops only relates to noise problems with low level signals, not problems with the power circuits themselves. Did some quick searching on ground loops, and they all talk about 60 hz buzz in audio components that have ground loops because of the way the components are connected. So, ground loops are a common occurrence in home audio systems, and shouldn't be a safety concern, as long as the rest of the wiring is done correctly.

Brew on

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I'm a noob idiot....

gonna read some more.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm a noob idiot....

gonna read some more.

Nothing wrong with being a noob. Everyone has to start there. I'm just exiting the noob stage as a brewer, but have knowledge and experience in other areas.

Just be sure that if you aren't extremely confident that your electrical design and execution will be safe, then get some qualified help.

Brew on

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I have never had a problem with wiring up any of the lighting gear, fans, pumps and timers when I used to grow my meds. For some reason, installing a couple of water heater elements into a pot is boarder line terrifying lol! I'm sure it'll be fine (famous last words lol)

 

[doug293cz]

Oh, and if you haven't already, read the https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/.

Brew on