Berliner Weisse bottle dregs

[DaytonBrewing]

After reading a post by the Mad Fermentationist about harvesting bottle dregs I tried to build up some dregs from an 1809 Berliner Weisse. Half a quart of 1.030 starter wort and 4 bottles of dregs. Swirled multiple times a day and on the 3rd day when I return home from work I find the beginnings of a pellicle. At no point did I see any sort of a krausen so I am wondering if there is only lacto in the bottles.

Harvesting sour dregs blog post... http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

So I am wondering if I should brew tomorrow or if I should step up the starter again to a full quart. It looks like it is ready to take off, whatever I add it to. Also when I pitch, should I decant off the yeast slurry and pitch it alone or pitch the pellicle and all?

 

[passedpawn]

After reading a post by the Mad Fermentationist about harvesting bottle dregs I tried to build up some dregs from an 1809 Berliner Weisse. Half a quart of 1.030 starter wort and 4 bottles of dregs. Swirled multiple times a day and on the 3rd day when I return home from work I find the beginnings of a pellicle. At no point did I see any sort of a krausen so I am wondering if there is only lacto in the bottles.

Harvesting sour dregs blog post... http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

So I am wondering if I should brew tomorrow or if I should step up the starter again to a full quart. It looks like it is ready to take off, whatever I add it to. Also when I pitch, should I decant off the yeast slurry and pitch it alone or pitch the pellicle and all?

Might be. Kristen England, a brewing illuminati, recommends bottling Berliner Weisse with additional lacto.

 

[bruin_ale]

I'm going to brew a berliner next also, but never made one myself so take this all with a grain of salt. My comments come from reading nearly every berliner thread on the internet.

Half a quart is a pretty small lacto starter, it'll certainly work if you pitch what you've got but you really want to get the lacto off to the biggest headstart you can or you'll be waiting a long time for it to really sour. I'm planning to create my own sour starter in a 1G jug, so probably 3L or so.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm going to brew a berliner next also, but never made one myself so take this all with a grain of salt. My comments come from reading nearly every berliner thread on the internet.

Half a quart is a pretty small lacto starter, it'll certainly work if you pitch what you've got but you really want to get the lacto off to the biggest headstart you can or you'll be waiting a long time for it to really sour. I'm planning to create my own sour starter in a 1G jug, so probably 3L or so.

I've made a couple of them and I concur! (I'm not saying I did this though )

 

[bruin_ale]

Might be. Kristen England, a brewing illuminati, recommends bottling Berliner Weisse with additional lacto.

I've read that thread (and bookmarked it). The ratio of 3:1 lacto:yeast was the recommendation. I was confused if he meant ml of slurry or actual cell counts because he later used a hemocytometer to count the cells and there's about a 10^3 difference in the number of lacto cells in the starter slurry than in the yeast slurry. I think he meant mL though, and the cell count was just a reference point to back up why so much lacto was needed. In any case, I think it was eventually said that it's nearly impossible to pitch too much lacto.

 

[DaytonBrewing]

Well I have two 1/2gal mason jars I can use to build up more. And the lack of apparent fermentation doesn't concern me to much. As with you guys researching, I believe I have read if you want it to sour more you would add your lacto and let if work a bit before adding your main yeast to ferment it out.

I guess I didn't note a recommended amount to pitch. But not knowing exactly what is in the bottle lends to a bit of speculation.

 

[dantheman13]

Heya Dayton. I am going to brew a Berliner Weisse myself, but not going to use dregs. The Mad Fermentationist was on BasicBrewing podcast a few months ago, and I'm going to try his method using a vial of lacto and sacch. Let us know how yours turns out!

 

[DaytonBrewing]

I should have that in my itunes, I'll check and get it loaded up. Do you plan on pitching the lacto first and letting it sour a bit first before you pitch the sacch to finish it out?

 

[dantheman13]

I should have that in my itunes, I'll check and get it loaded up. Do you plan on pitching the lacto first and letting it sour a bit first before you pitch the sacch to finish it out?

On the BasicBrewing podcast, he said he tried that and it didn't really give him any benefit. He just pitches the lacto with the sacch. So I'll probably just do that too.

 

[zandrsn]

I'm going to brew a berliner next also, but never made one myself so take this all with a grain of salt. My comments come from reading nearly every berliner thread on the internet.

Hey BruinAle, this may be off-topic but I was wondering what recipe/procedure you came up with for your Berliner Weisse (if you've gotten around to it yet that is). I have been wanting to make one for a long time and have done a good bit of research myself, but have yet to come up with a recipe/souring method that I felt totally good about. Cheers

 

[bruin_ale]

I haven't gotten around to brewing it yet as I'm finishing up some beers for NHC - I have to rebrew a golden strong in case it makes it to the final round and then the berliner weisse will be next. But I think I've decided what I want to do:

I'm going to do 10G and build two lacto starters - 1 starter will be cultured from a handful of crushed grain, the other will be from the WL or wyeast lacto. I think they'll be 1L each, debating whether to use apple juice or standard DME starter medium for this.
Grain bill 50% wheat, 50%pils - mash hopped
Mash in at 130 for protein rest, decoction to get to 149 and rest there for an hour, then mashout and sparge. No boil, but I'll collect it in my boil kettle and keep it at about 180 just to pasteurize and make sure the gravity is homogenous since I'm going to siphon to two different fermentors.
I think I'll chill down to about 70, pitch WL001 and lacto at the same time.

 

[zandrsn]

I haven't gotten around to brewing it yet as I'm finishing up some beers for NHC - I have to rebrew a golden strong in case it makes it to the final round and then the berliner weisse will be next. But I think I've decided what I want to do:

I'm going to do 10G and build two lacto starters - 1 starter will be cultured from a handful of crushed grain, the other will be from the WL or wyeast lacto. I think they'll be 1L each, debating whether to use apple juice or standard DME starter medium for this.
Grain bill 50% wheat, 50%pils - mash hopped
Mash in at 130 for protein rest, decoction to get to 149 and rest there for an hour, then mashout and sparge. No boil, but I'll collect it in my boil kettle and keep it at about 180 just to pasteurize and make sure the gravity is homogenous since I'm going to siphon to two different fermentors.
I think I'll chill down to about 70, pitch WL001 and lacto at the same time.

Sounds like a great experiment. What are you thinking as far as fermentation temperatures and hops?

 

[bruin_ale]

Hops don't matter much, I'll probably use an oz of Mt. Hood or something similar.
Fermentation temps, good question. I think I need to do more research. I want it warm, but I don't want esthers from the yeast, especially no banana. I may hold it at low 70 for the first day or two to let the yeast do most of the ferment and then warm up for the lacto to take over but I have to see what the best method is. Pitching lacto first, then yeast avoids the temp issue - I could pitch lacto, hold at 90 for a day or two, then pitch the yeast - but I'm worried that the acidity/pH at that point will be too high to get the really high attenuation I'm after.

 

[zandrsn]

Hops don't matter much, I'll probably use an oz of Mt. Hood or something similar.
Fermentation temps, good question. I think I need to do more research. I want it warm, but I don't want esthers from the yeast, especially no banana. I may hold it at low 70 for the first day or two to let the yeast do most of the ferment and then warm up for the lacto to take over but I have to see what the best method is. Pitching lacto first, then yeast avoids the temp issue - I could pitch lacto, hold at 90 for a day or two, then pitch the yeast - but I'm worried that the acidity/pH at that point will be too high to get the really high attenuation I'm after.

Yep, I had similar thoughts. I was planning to try the lacto first @ 90F for a day or two before pitching, but there seems to be a number of different methods with no definitive winner. I'll be interested to hear what you decide to do. I'm also wanting a clean, sour, and refreshing brew with minimal esthers (specifically banana), i'm thinking more like a super clear sour kolsch or saison almost.