Here is a thread from the Beersmith forum. http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,18720.msg68995.html where Brad explains his method.
BeerSmith 3: Here it comes. Thoughts?
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Smellyglove
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Is this (what Brad said in the linked thread above) saying that BNW is not as correct as BS3.0?
alestateyall
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Bru’n water provides the “Mashing Water Profile” and the “Overall Finished Water Profile”.
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Maybe I'm using an older version of Bru'n water, but the overall finished water profile in Bru'n water is of the combined water for the mash and sparge, not post boil.
Thanks for the thread. I had been discussing homebrewing with some friends and figured I should restart and was looking for the software I had used only to find out there was a new version that was released this month. Turns out I bought mine back in 2012.
For the infrequent brewers, what do you all think between subscription vs one time? The cost difference looks like it'd hit in two years. I think I have a total of 8 recipes in the past 6 years and haven't used Beersmith 2 in about 2 or so years. If I did more, I would go for a subscription (and also keep my own backups).
For the infrequent brewers, what do you all think between subscription vs one time? The cost difference looks like it'd hit in two years. I think I have a total of 8 recipes in the past 6 years and haven't used Beersmith 2 in about 2 or so years. If I did more, I would go for a subscription (and also keep my own backups).
alestateyall
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Okay. You’re probably right. I just have gotten used to comparing the overall numbers to my target water profile.
BeerSmith water tab only provides one of those numbers, the mash water chemistry. I would like to see the overall numbers so I can compare to the target profile.
alestateyall
Well-Known Member
This is user error. My old BeerSmith 2 recipes have salts as a single addition to the mash because I usually add all my water to kettle, treat it with salts, then split part of it for mash and part for sparge. BeerSmith 3 assumes I was adding all the salts to mash and none to the sparge water and showing a mash water profile that didn’t match what I was seeing on Bru’n water. I can make them match with changes in how the salts are listed in BeerSmith.
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I like that BS3 added the ability to delineate when/where water adjustments are added as I treat my strike and sparge liquors separately, and now they show up in the Design separately so I don't have to bang that information into the Notes.
Next is playing with the hop stands & whirlpooling temperature adjustments. Looks promising...
Cheers!
Next is playing with the hop stands & whirlpooling temperature adjustments. Looks promising...
Cheers!
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I kinda like the whirlpool set up, though there are a few issues I still have. I very much like the ability to set the temperatures at which the whirlpool hops are added and that the calculation of IBU is based upon those temperatures. I dislike the fact that the overall % utilization has been removed and that the program relies on the temperature to adjust the % utilization.
Sound odd? I found that I picked up less bitterness in my system when whirlpooling under BS2 and adjusted the % utilization to account for this. Plugging in the same recipe with the same whirlpool temps into BS3, I come up withe original utilization (or pretty damn close to it). An overall adjustment was included in the early beta versions, but Brad said he took it out because it was not being used under this last release. Just means that I will need to reestablish my baseline IBU targets separately for the whirlpool hopping again to correlate to my perception of bitterness.
Yeastieboy
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I guess I meant vs. an upgrade option.
I think there is an upgrade available if you bought BS2 recently. Date is on the Beersmith.com site. Otherwise, yes... if you want it, you're buying it again. Discounted prices til the end of June as far as I recall.
Cheers!
Chris
If you purchased BS2 recently, you get the gold subscription free for one year. This means you can install BS3 and use it for a year without additional cost, but after a year you will need to either renew the gold subscription or buy the standalone version.
I bought mine recently, so I was able to do this. In my opinion this was generous, and I’ll probably pay to keep using the new version after the year.
Ya but there is no final water profile generated. Boo!!
I tried the water profile adjustment and compared it to Bru'n Water. In BS3 I get a mash pH of 5.61 vs BW 5.41. I noticed the numbers for each addition in ppm is spot on except Calcium and Chloride. 71.9 Ca and 113.9 Cl in BS3, 88.3 Ca and 142.2 Cl in BW. Any idea on why so different? Also, I wish the ph showed up under the water tab and not just the mash tab.
Redtab78
Well-Known Member
Over the past few days i have been seeing a difference in both the ph as well as the recommended acid additions. And neither are the same as brewers friend. I really like the look and feel of beersmith and have been using it for quite a few years, and just now learning more about water and acids and salts, but if the info given is not reliable, i may just scrap it and stick to one more reliable
They had a chance to get water right and I feel they didn’t. Other misses: no MgCl nor lime aka Calcium Hydroxide, both of which can be valuable salts in certain recipes/profiles.
Beersmith uses Dihydrate calcium chloride. Perhaps you have selected anhydrous in Bru'n water. In the comments, Martin explains why he defaults to anhydrous.
OP
OP
Sorry, I can't comment on any technical improvements, but my first use of BS3 proves that having a PhD does not mean you have a clue about creating a sensible GUI.
Agreed...and that complaint is as old as BeerSmith 1.0.
I was actually a tad surprised that firing up BS3 gave me essentially the same gui as BS2 once the redundant stuff is turned off on both.
But tbh at this point I'm ok with it - the devil you know and all that (lord only knows where Brad might have gone
)
Cheers!
I was actually a tad surprised that firing up BS3 gave me essentially the same gui as BS2 once the redundant stuff is turned off on both.
But tbh at this point I'm ok with it - the devil you know and all that (lord only knows where Brad might have gone
)Cheers!
I have no plans on ditching Bru'n Water. Other than observing what BS2's water stuff had to say, I never used it, and from early accounts I'm not planning on using BS3's water tool, either...
Cheers!
Some people have issues with anhydrous calcium chloride absorbing moisture from the surrounding air. In this case the anhydrous calcium chloride will weigh more than when it is free of moisture. I have stored LD Carlson calcium chloride for at least a year and have never experienced this issue firsthand.
"The problems with solid calcium chloride were described here in a previous post. A major problem with the solid form is that its strength can vary due to it absorbing moisture from the air. This problem is so bad, that Dow Chemical (a major calcium chloride manufacturer) only quotes ranges of strength for their products. Their ‘anhydrous’ product has only 94 to 97 percent calcium chloride by mass (it should be 100 percent) while their ‘dihydrate’ product has 77 to 80 percent by mass (it should be 75.5 percent). So you can see that knowing how much calcium chloride you are actually adding to your brewing liquor is difficult!" ~Bru'n Water Article
I never understood all the crap people give BS. Sure, its far from perfect, but home brewers are a diverse bunch with different processes and different theories about brewing science. To expect the program to address every concern of every home brewer is asking too much, IMO. Same with expecting it to match Bru'n Water's calcs on the nose. BS and BN are complex models that give reasonably accurate estimates. BS being off from BN doesn't make BS wrong, just as BS's yeast starter tool wasn't 'wrong' just because it didn't match Mr. Malty perfectly. Its not like Brady just did a sloppy job figuring out water additions. In the link posted above, he links to a study that explains why his PH model gives slightly different results than Bru'n Water.
Anyway, I gave BS3 a short spin for the first time last night. I have a gold subscription so my upgrade from BS2 to BS3 was free, which was nice. I do have to say that it doesn't feel like a major upgrade in the sense that it looks the same and basically operates the same. But that's probably a good thing because BS has a long learning curve. There are a some significant improvements, though. The water tool is well integrated, much to my relief as I found it annoying to have to do that in a separate spreadsheet (as awesome as Bru'n Water is). Time will tell whether the PH model matches my results. The whirlpool temps are a nice addition. I like the folders on the cloud service. I haven't played around with the two-stage yeast starter tool, but that should be another good addition.
Ultimately, for years Beersmith has been the best tool out there and its reasonably priced. The new version integrates a few features that make it better, even if its still not perfect.
Anyway, I gave BS3 a short spin for the first time last night. I have a gold subscription so my upgrade from BS2 to BS3 was free, which was nice. I do have to say that it doesn't feel like a major upgrade in the sense that it looks the same and basically operates the same. But that's probably a good thing because BS has a long learning curve. There are a some significant improvements, though. The water tool is well integrated, much to my relief as I found it annoying to have to do that in a separate spreadsheet (as awesome as Bru'n Water is). Time will tell whether the PH model matches my results. The whirlpool temps are a nice addition. I like the folders on the cloud service. I haven't played around with the two-stage yeast starter tool, but that should be another good addition.
Ultimately, for years Beersmith has been the best tool out there and its reasonably priced. The new version integrates a few features that make it better, even if its still not perfect.
I personally like BS. Once you figure out the wonky interface, it is great as it is very feature rich. BUT... get the water right if you are going to do it!
OP
OP
BS does what I need it to do. I have no complaints about functionality, just GUI. I still recommend it. But it'll never get fixed without some complaining. George Bernard Shaw said it best:
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
OP
OP
I created a pilsner recipe in it last night. I used the water tool also, starting with distilled (RO) water. We'll see how that goes.
Redtab78
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Dont get me wrong, i absolutly love BS, and to me it is almsot the perfect tool. Having that said, i am just now learning about water and proper treatment with the goal of taking my good beer to the category of great beer. It is primarily my ignorance of understanding alkalinity and ph and when i compare the exact same inputs to 3 different programs, and get 3 very different results that frustrates me.
I think the world of BruNWater, which I have learned to use but still can’t spell. It is typically dead nuts on in its pH calculations and I have been really happy with the flavor profiles of the water and beer it generates.
Well, along those lines I'll add: I really hope BS3 Mobile will be fully functional. BS is just about the only thing I use my personal laptop for these days and I'd love to be 100% mobile.
Yeah, Bru'n Water is great!
Absolutely, that's annoying. Unfortunately, I think that's just the nature of the beast. Its probably best to just pick one and stick with it so long as your PH comes out about as predicted.
I hope it works out to be reasonably close. I'm defending this new BS3 feature without having actually tried it!
mpmccann
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I brewed my first batch "an amber ale" last week using BS3. I had a couple of inconsistencies with this batch, which is almost always the case when I brew. First thing I noticed was the amount of lactic acid 88% required to lower the PH seemed much greater then when I use bru'n water in the past. When I measured the PH it was actually a little too low. (expecting 5.33 measuring 5.10). The second issue was my gravity reading was also pretty low. The pre-boil gravity was 1.033 as apposed to 1.041. This might not have anything to do with BS3 as the grain I used was about a year old (stored in 5gal. bucket w/ lid in the house & not milled). I think I can adjust for the lactic acid addition and just guess at what I already know is a good amount from experience, but damn-it I would rather just have BS3 tell me the proper amount in my recipe. I do like all of the improvements made to the product, whirlpool temps, water profile over all was improved etc. BUT, as for PH adjustments "at least for me" the calculation is still off a bit, and the main reason I had to use bru'n water in the first place. I will continue to use BS3 and see if there are other adjustment that I can tweak to help in the future. After all this was my first batch with BS3.
First thing I noticed was the amount of lactic acid 88% required to lower the PH seemed much greater then when I use bru'n water in the past. When I measured the PH it was actually a little too low. (expecting 5.33 measuring 5.10). The second issue was my gravity reading was also pretty low. The pre-boil gravity was 1.033 as apposed to 1.041. This might not have anything to do with BS3 as the grain I used was about a year old (stored in 5gal. bucket w/ lid in the house & not milled). I think I can adjust for the lactic acid addition and just guess at what I already know is a good amount from experience, but damn-it I would rather just have BS3 tell me the proper amount in my recipe. I do like all of the improvements made to the product, whirlpool temps, water profile over all was improved etc. BUT, as for PH adjustments "at least for me" the calculation is still off a bit, and the main reason I had to use bru'n water in the first place. I will continue to use BS3 and see if there are other adjustment that I can tweak to help in the future. After all this was my first batch with BS3.
I brewed my first batch "an amber ale" last week using BS3. I had a couple of inconsistencies with this batch, which is almost always the case when I brew.
So as far as PH, it seems as if Bru'n Water would have been even farther off the mark?
GoeHaarden
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May I ask how it was free? I have BS2
Annnndddd for everyone else, so whats the consensus? Is it worth it to upgrade to BS3 from BS2? Subscription vs Basic?
To upgrade for free from BS2 to BS3 you have to have purchased BS2 recently. It says on the site what the cutoff date is.
I feel it was worth it to upgrade. I went with the Gold subscription for the cloud. Time will tell if I use it enough. I lost all my recipes to a computer crash a couple years ago. Fortunately I also print them out. But then again, I haven't brewed exactly the same recipe twice yet. 101 batches. IMO, there are enough tweaks to make it worth the upgrade.
I feel it was worth it to upgrade. I went with the Gold subscription for the cloud. Time will tell if I use it enough. I lost all my recipes to a computer crash a couple years ago. Fortunately I also print them out. But then again, I haven't brewed exactly the same recipe twice yet. 101 batches. IMO, there are enough tweaks to make it worth the upgrade.
GoeHaarden
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Gotcha. Thanks. I just found it on the site, no go for me. But I'm sure I waste more that $10/year on stupid stuff so I can justify it I suppose.
Also, I can't find it on the site. Does the subscription version require internet connection post-download/install?
If you have the cloud subscription, the upgrade is free.
Once downloaded and unlocked, you only need the internet to move things in and out of the "cloud". Otherwise it works pretty much the same as BS2
Only if you bought BS2 fairly recently. The cutoff date is on the BS website.
GoeHaarden
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Awesome. Thanks. I bit the bullet...
No, those are two different things.
I bought BS2 5 years ago. I got BS3 free because I have a gold subscription.
Ah yes, I forgot about the older cloud subscription. I didn't have it. And didn't know that they had a gold/platinum/pro designation for it.
I'm digging the new features. Going to give the subscription a shot.
The subscription is worth it if you like using the mobile app. Its really just lets you sync recipes across platforms.
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