Am I really understanding decoction correctly?!

[ViperMan]

Sorry guys - I tried search, but search was being FUNKY for me tonight...

I'm going to attempt a Bock, taking advantage of colder temperatures in the garage to get fermentation to work.

I'm doing a LOT of homework before hand, and have learned that I need to perform a decoction mash to really get the true flavor of a Bock (and as I plan on competing with this beer, I want to get it right.)

Reading Palmer, Daneils, and some online sites, they all say to extract a portion of the mash and boil it. Really?! I'm going to BOIL the grain?! What about the dreaded tanins that we're supposed to avoid by keeping temps below 170?? Now I'm going to boil the grain and suddenly that's okay?! I'm confused...

That being said, the process seems to make good sense and I think I have everything I need to make it work... I'm just a bit fearful of going against everything I've been taught thus far!

Thanks for the feedback (ahead of time) and I'm looking forward to this one!

 

[tbmohr]

You got it, you boil the grains with no regard to the tannins because the ph is so low in your mostly grain decoction that they won't be extracted. 90% of my brews I decoction mash I love traditional German beers. This is my 2 bits of advise, always pull more then you think you need I do 1qt per lb of grain and some times if it's cold I'll add an extra. And ramp your temp very slowly and stir constantly you don't want to burn the grains. Look on YouTube for tutorials if you haven't already

 

[ViperMan]

Thanks tbmohr!

Have you ever used Beersmith for this kinda stuff? I'm wondering how accurate it's calculations are. What I DO find odd is that - for a two-stage decoction (122-156-168) it wants me to draw off 11 qts for the first decoction, but only 6-7 qts for the second. Meanwhile, Palmer and other online sources simply say "use 30-40% of your volume for each step."

Your thoughts?

 

[tbmohr]

I have used beersmith but it never works perfectly I'd stay with 40% and add back slowly if you hit your next temp don't keep adding the boiling grains you'll over shoot you can just let it (the grain) cool to mash temp before you add it it's being safe then sorry I've had days where I didn't hit my next temp and it frustrating because of the work your putting in. Expect this to take up to 6 hours to mash if you do multiple steps. It's fun lots of work and you will taste it in the beer

 

[ScottG58]

I love decoction and rarely have time. I use Brewsmith. I use it as a guide. Some suggestions:

1. Pull a thick mash for the decoction. It should be grain with just enough liquid to boil. I use a strainer and add back liquid. Most of the enzymes are in the liquid.
2. Low and slow on the heat for the boil. Stir constantly.
3. The important number on the mash is temperature. Pull a little more for the boil than Beersmitb. Add a little grain, stir, check temperature and repeat until you hit target.

I have used on Vienna lager and it gives a wonderful caramelized dimension to the malty flavor of the beer.

Enjoy. I'm jealous.

 

[ViperMan]

Scott, you only add back the liquid from each boil step? Do you just discard the grain?

To both of you, how do you avoid hot-spotting with such a dense mash in the boil steps? When I do BIAB brews and heat from the protein rest to mash temp, it's a TOTAL pain trying to keep the temperature even.

Lastly, I've been wondering this - Darryl Richman recommends a longer boil when using infusion mashing to achieve some of the same caramelized flavors. If I can perform a proper decoction mash, can I stick with a standard 60-minute boil time and be fine? From the recipe I have so far, I think color and caramel flavor will be fine.

Thoughts?

 

[tbmohr]

The grains and the liquid get returned. You have to stir the boiling grains the whole time from start to finish. I still suggest you YouTube decoction mash there are several great videos to explain everything brewing tv is the one I learned from.

 

[tbmohr]

It depends on your grain bill I use German pilz mald and boil for 90 to reduce dms

 

[ViperMan]

The grains and the liquid get returned. You have to stir the boiling grains the whole time from start to finish. I still suggest you YouTube decoction mash there are several great videos to explain everything brewing tv is the one I learned from.

I will do that - thank you. My internet at work is severely restricted so I have to cram all my Youtubing after I get home and after the 1yr-old goes to bed!

It depends on your grain bill I use German pilz mald and boil for 90 to reduce dms

I'm following Ray Daniels's advice and using a heavy bill of German, 9L Munich Malt with a few pounds of Pilsner and a splash of a dark crystal.

 

[kylevester]

To avoid hot spots, you just have to stir. I know it sounds flippant and simplistic, but that's just the way it is. Just like mashing in, you gotta keep things moving to help spread the heat around.

Each heating method will result in hot spots, but thorough mixing helps to mitigate that.

 

[mjohnson]

Braukaiser has some great video tutorials on YouTube. Here is his wiki. Links to the videos are at the bottom.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

 

[judsonp]

Have you ever used Beersmith for this kinda stuff? I'm wondering how accurate it's calculations are. What I DO find odd is that - for a two-stage decoction (122-156-168) it wants me to draw off 11 qts for the first decoction, but only 6-7 qts for the second. Meanwhile, Palmer and other online sources simply say "use 30-40% of your volume for each step."

BeerSmith is calculating how much you need to raise the temperature exactly (which doesn't account for errors -- like your mash losing a few degrees or boiling off some of the decoction). The reason the second decoction is so much smaller is that the second temperature increase is smaller (12 F, compared to 34 F).

Just recently did my first decoction mash for a dunkel. Used Hochkurtz (no protein rest, but decoction for mashout). Went easily. Stir a lot, use a bigger decoction than BeerSmith suggests, and just monitor your mash temperature as you add the decoction back in.

 

[DRonco]

Braukaiser has some great video tutorials on YouTube. Here is his wiki. Links to the videos are at the bottom.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

This will teach you everything you need to know. I watched and read all of Kai's material in preparation for a Dusselldorf Alt I'm making next week. Great stuff!

 

[Cyclman]

+1 on studying Kai's site when you're doing decoctions. I triple decoct all my German style lagers, and believe it is highly worth it. Pull thick on first 2 decoctions, pull thin on the last one. You'll also get great efficiency. I decocted a standard Pils recipe and got 2% higher alcohol than the recipe called for.

 

[bajaedition]

I do one decoction a year, in March I do an Oktoberfest.

It is a lot of work, Yes it is

BUT................... It really is worth it

I would probably do more than 1 but I really dread them. And once a year is enough to know why I just do step infusions for my other beers.

I really think decoctions are worth the effort if you are doing a traditional German style Lager. They sem to add something nothing else does.
My first experience I was scared I was going to screw everything up I could and no one I knew had ever done one so I read a lot, then jumped in and did one, I screwed up a bit and overshot both steps but I got through it and learned a lot. I tried a few more and got it right.

(I live in the desert, have a well, which means I have liquid rock for water. lots of minerals and the ph from hell. SO I have to not only order special malt, but also buy RO water and blend it in to mine to get the chemistry better.)

You see, there were no internet websites with info or forums about decoction mashes back then, we had only a few books about brewing and most only mentioned decoction mashing in passing. You really are lucky today with the info you can get.

I suggest you try it. Once you get the technique down it will be a source of pride that you can do them. Imagine after one of your fellow brewers comments on how nice that beer turned out, "that is one of your decoction mashes isn't it?"

Good Luck

 

[VladOfTrub]

Lower modified malt is better to use with decoction method. Weyermanns light or dark floor malt works well with the tri-decoction method. High modified has certain enzymes kilned off or inverted due to the high temps used to kiln the malt. It can be used. Never start a decoction if pH is 6 or above or below 4.7. If high modified malt is used and depending on the malster, pH will vary between the brands. High modified will stick at a certain pH. The pH may favor one enzyme but not another. Alpha and beta have an optimum pH range and both are different. Program the decoctions around them....... Decoction method creates a wider palette to work from and allows a brewer to have greater control over the finished product. It is chemically and enzymatically impossible to produce a beer from infusion or baggery method as one produced from a decoction. There is a little more to brewing certain styles of beer. The Video is a rough schematic on decoction brewing. Watching it, leads me to believe it was the first one he did. He's probably improved with time. If you are interested in decoction brewing, buy Noonan's book. It is a good primer. Then, spend the money on Siebels books if wanting to learn more. The guy with the vid copied from Noonan, Line and Fix, who copied from Siebel. Some of the double decoction info he has came from Narziss. Use that method for high modified U.S or Canadian malt. The high modified British malts aren't suitable for decoction. There is a malster producing low modified malt in Britain. I'm not sure if it's Fawcett or Simpson. Have fun and good luck with your brew.

 

[helibrewer]

When I have done a two step decoction I start with the grain bill split from the start. Just hold the 40% portion at the first step temp for 10-15 minutes then ramp it up to the boil. You get the same results but eliminate the messy scooping and straining.

 

[ViperMan]

Wow guys thanks for all the replies!

Thought I'd give some feedback. I completed this brew on Saturday, 1/18. I had some challenge in that I didn't have a fancy 1-quart scoop, so I was forced to use a soup ladle, 7 scoops of which equaled a quart. Yes, I hated my life...

Regardless, I followed the guidance of 1-quart per pound of grain for the first decoction. I followed all the advice - a temp rest at 150 or so, then boiling, then slowly adding back to mash. Came nowhere NEAR 150. So I quickly pulled out some liquid and boiled - had to do that twice to hit the 154 I wanted (I like my beers full-bodied!) Same with the mash-out step (half as much as the first decoction), I came nowhere near 168, but I rarely mash-out anyways since I just have a pot and an igloo cooler, so I really didn't care.
The main issue I observed was a stuck sparge - and I NEVER get a stuck sparge. I noticed that the grain in the cooler was incredibly dense - no doubt the result of the frequent boiling and thus pulverization of the grain. In the future, I think I'll add a bunch of rice hulls with the final decoction step to help the wort drain.
I also blame the inability to drain on my slightly lower-than-usual efficiency. I usually hit low 90's, but I struggled to hit 85 this time. (My 90's are usually obtained with small, BIAB batches, so I knew I wouldn't hit that anyways with this being a full batch.
Lastly, my boil-off rate was much higher, likely due to boiling in my garage in very dry winter air. I diluted with a little extra water, hit my OG dead on (1.071) and once the wort hit 50 degrees, pitched the WLP833 (with a BIG starter.) The next day I borrowed a Fermwrap and temp controller from a friend, and the blow-off has been busy ever since. Still bubbling about once every 1.5 seconds this morning - I'm very pleased.
So yeah, it was a long and challenging day, but I'm optimistic for a delicious Bock!
Thanks again for all the advice!

(Posted with my phone, so pardon any errors!)

 

[iowabrew]

I'm jealous, i was planning this exact thing the day after xmas, but chickened out. If i get my hands on a 1 quart ladle i think this will be in my near future. I love a big malty dopple. Congrats man on the successful brewday

 

[lhommedieu]

The high modified British malts aren't suitable for decoction. There is a malster producing low modified malt in Britain. I'm not sure if it's Fawcett or Simpson.

I think that it may be this one:

Halcyon - 2.6°L (Fawcett) 1.038 2.6 "A floor-malted barley malt from a single barley variety (Halcyon), and produced by a centuries-old, family-owned maltster. Halcyon Pale Ale Malt is considered to be one of the last remaining ""traditional"" English Pale Malts. Adds a degree of biscuit flavor to the beer. Brighter and lighter in flavor than Pearl, Halcyon is a great malt for the production of Real Ales. It tends to produce a less sweet wort than Maris Otter. All the base malts from Thomas Fawcett & Sons are grown by local, family farmers near the maltings area."

Edit: http://www.fawcett-maltsters.co.uk/specif.htm

 

[lhommedieu]

I was wrong. As per my inquiry to Fawcett:

"Thank you for your email.
The short answer is no-halcyon is malted exactly the same way as maris otter to achieve the highest modification possible to produce optimum performance in the mash tun.
All best wishes,

James Fawcett"

Nice of them to reply, imo. Now, back to square one.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Crisp Malting. Europils. SNR 36. The malt would probably make an interesting beer with using the decoction method.

 

[VladOfTrub]

ViperMan. Sounds like you didn't do too bad with your 1st decoction. Glitches create learning. Some advice: The 1qt/lb thing is OK, except when it comes to lautering. With that volume of water, the extract will be very dense. The liquid extract being extremely dense will inhibit the flow of run off. Thin down the mash in the lautertun, stir it real good one time and let the bed settle. Let the liquid on top of the sludge clear up enough that you can see the top of the bed. Vorlauf slowly and no longer than 10 minutes. At mash out temps lipids will be stripped if volauf is too long. Boiling didn't cause the stuck sparge. Boiling not long enough was part of it. The protein gum has to be reduced. It takes about a half hour of boiling to do so. True German Bock is usually boiled longer. The other thing is; if the protein sludge laying on top of the grain bed is pastey/gummy, sparge water won't flow through it. Stuck sparge, when the decoction is done correctly is very rare. It can happen if the grain bed sets from too quick of a run off. A high extract content liquid along with a thick mash can take as long as three hours to run off, especially when working with a deep grain bed. A decoction lautertun is designed at a certain grain bed depth to diameter ratio. The false bottom is different for decoction than the random slotted and perforated types sold in LHBS. Helibrewer mentioned the process he uses, doing a 40% thing. The process is done that way, usually, when corn or rice makes up a large part of the grain bill. The adjuncts are boiled 1st and added into the main mash that is doughed in cold, to raise the cold mash to acid rest temp. After pH drops to 5.8, 5.6 the 1st decoction is pulled and can be boiled without stripping tannin. The pH of the decoction determines at what the conversion temp of the decoction should be. Too each his own.

 

[lhommedieu]

A decoction lautertun is designed at a certain grain bed depth to diameter ratio. The false bottom is different for decoction than the random slotted and perforated types sold in LHBS.

I'm saving up for the Blichmann 10 gallon pot with the slotted false bottom, because I think that it will fit my needs re. learning the decoction method. Should I modify it any way or is it adequate as it is?

 

[ViperMan]

Just a quick update - got a good buddy/fellow homebrew club member who lives nearby and is a master-certified BJCP judge. I took a sample as I was transferring from Primary to the keg for lagering and brought it to him on Superbowl Sunday. His report; "Damn nice - no off flavors whatsoever, kettle carmelization is noticeable, and overall flavor is really nice considering that it was completely flat." He's anxious to sample the finished product - lagering at 33 degrees as we speak!

 

[MrFeltimo]

intresting read,
Do only german lagers get decocted? or can you decoct anything? what are the benifets?

 

[JimRausch]

intresting read,
Do only german lagers get decocted? or can you decoct anything? what are the benifets?

Well here's one benefit:
This past Saturday I did an Stout with a grain bill that filled my mashtun to the top. But, my intial mash temp was a couple degrees too low. So, I pulled a 1 qt. decoction which when added back raised the temp perfectly to where I wanted it.
I've done about 1/2 dozen 2 stage decoctions in the past, so there was no panic when the temp was low.

 

[JimRausch]

Just remembered. One of my previous decoctions was a Scottish Wee Heavy. That, plus the seperate boil of 1G 1st runnings really made for a nice malty beer.

 

[ViperMan]

I'd say yes - you can decoct anything. I've also done the quick draw-boil-return for the point of grabbing a few extra degrees.

For bocks, it's a style thing, and a good judge like my buddy can pick up on it (lol - at least he said he did!) Any beer that should taste "malty" would benefit, though you might be able to get away with a longer boil.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[VladOfTrub]

"I'm saving up for the Blichmann 10 gallon pot with the slotted false bottom, because I think that it will fit my needs re. learning the decoction method. Should I modify it any way or is it adequate as it is?"

I reduced the slot openings in the plate to match the size of the slots in a radially slotted decoction plate. The Blichmann plate slots are large and more compatable with the loose grain bed created by the English method. The run off rate through a thick, extract loaded bed is almost as fast as batch sparging, using Blichmann's factory plate. Before altering the plate. I was getting husk underneath the plate when I would set the bed, due to the fine grind I use. It was a very small amount of husk. Once the bed set, the husk wouldn't pass through the slots. Until you get the process down, I wouldn't alter anything. Get used to the factory plate. Watch the level in the sight glass and the sparge water level on top of the bed when running the extract and adjust the pump outlet to slow or raise the flow rate. When the heaviest extract is washed out, the tun can be sparged quickly.

Any beer, except maybe Yak beer, can be made using the decoction method. It's best to use low modified malt like Weyermann floor malt. Low modified malt is enzymatically richer than high modified. The enzymes just aren't as strong as enzymes in high modified, when it comes to converting adjuncts using infusion method. Part of the reason that high modified has a lot of diastatic strength is due to kilning. A lot of the malt is already converted or inverted when the malt is wetted to keep from burning. Enzymes have less to work on in high modified malt. During the decoction process, diastatic power of low modified malt increases drastically. It's not uncommon for a decoction to completely convert in 10 to 15 minutes even with adjuncts. Using the finest infusion process will never produce the quality or quantity of wort as the decoction process. Some benefits: Cleaner wort, less hot and cold break, better hop utilization, nutrients are produced, precipitation of phosphates, reduction of protein gum, higher OG, less starch carry over, stability and longer shelf life.

 

[lhommedieu]

I'm roughing out what I think a decoction brewing process might look like. This is just a basic schematic and does not reflect much detail, but I've found it helpful to parse out the broad outlines of the equipment used and how a decoction brewing system might operate. Apologies for the crudeness and watermarks (I'm trying out SmartDraw for the first time and probably won't go past the trial version). This system uses pumps to transfer hot water between vessels, and clear wort from the lauter tun to the brew pot. Mash and vorlauf is transferred manually. Obviously there are many other ways that one could configure his or her system; I currently have a gravity system and only two burners, but I think that this is the direction in which I want to go. Thanks to Vladoftrub for sharing his expertise here and elsewhere on the forum.

I tried to resize it but this is as large as I can get it; if you copy/paste it, then you can resize it.

 

[lhommedieu]

I'm looking at Weyermann's Amber Wheat Beer recipe on their website.

Weyermann® Dark Wheat Malt 50
Weyermann® Pilsner Malt 20
Weyermann® Munich Malt Type 2 15
Weyermann® Caraamber® 10
Weyermann® Caramunich® Type 3 5

Original gravity: 12.5 °P (1.0505)

Alcohol by volume: 5.8 %

Hops: 13 BU (Opal)

Yeast recommendation: Fermentis® Safbrew WB-06

They give what appears to be a step mash process:

Mashing in 37°C (98.6°F),
20 min 50°C (122°F),
35 min 63°C (145°F),
5 min 68°C (154°F),
20 min 72°C (162°F);
mash-out 77°C (171°F)

Am I correct in assuming that the same process can be achieved using the decoction method, as well?

Also: Could I make a simple Hefeweizen using just light wheat malt and Pilsner, say 60/40 or 50/50%, using the same process? (This would be my first attempt at a decoction recipe, at the end of April.) Beersmith says that I can, but gives me different rest times at approximately the same temperatures, and omits the 162 F rest.


Edit: Re. a simple Hefeweizen: Going back to read past posts I've come up with the following:

Dough in with cold water, then fire the tun to 37°C (98.6°F) Rest mash until the pH drops to below 5.8 and then pull first decoction.
Pull first decoction and bring thick mash to 122 F and rest for 20 minutes; bring to boil [for how long?] and then add back to thin mash to bring mash to 122. [Is there another 20 minute rest, here?]
Pull second decoction and bring thick mash to 144 F and rest for 35 minutes; bring to boil [for how long?] and then add back to mash to bring mash to 144. [Is there another 35 minute rest, here?]
Test for conversion.
Mash out.

I'm not sure what to do/the rational for the two steps before the mash out. Maybe a double decoction is appropriate for a Hefeweizen but a tripple is used for the Amber wheat beer because of the extra malts used?

5 min 68°C (154°F),
20 min 72°C (162°F);

 

[VladOfTrub]

Weyermann's recipe can be made using tri decoction, as well as the one you proposed. The only problem with Weyermann's recipe with a decoction is that the cara's and munich would become assertive and throw off the balance. You are correct, Weyermann recipe is a step mash. The cara and munich were added to attempt to duplicate the same product as a decoction produces, using step infusion. Regardless, of the method used. The main mash will require two different beta rest temps and one alpha rest. Conversion rest temps, are conversion rest temps, regardless of the process. Also, there are two rests before boiling in the 1st decoction and one rest before boiling in the 2nd decoction. The rest temps are determined by pH. The rest time is determined by what you consider a thick mash is and again, pH. That's why I mentioned in various posts and maybe in a PM to you. That, if conversion in the decoction doesn't take place within 20 minutes, thin it down. Be aware that if you are not using floor malt and are using standard pils malt. Standard Weyermann pils sticks at pH 5.8, if you are using distilled water. Certainly, you aren't going to use distilled water for brewing. Due to water pH, etc., 5.8 pH might be unattainable. Another reason why cara and munich are in the recipe; they are fairly acidic and will aid in mash acidulation. Problems will arise when it comes to boiling the mash if pH is haywire. You will need to pay more attention to your water chemistry. If you are going to use standard pils, you added more into the equation. If for some odd reason, other than not being able to get floor malt, you decide to use standard pils. You are making things more difficult for yourself. Using wheat in a first ever decoction is going to be hard enough. Why create extra issues? I'd make the simpler recipe you proposed, adding sauer malz and using floor malt instead of standard Weyermann's pils. Low modified floor malt was used in German wheat beer before high modified was invented.

 

[beerinasippicup]

We did a double decoction in our latest video. We do a poor job of explaining in detail what we’re doing (there are plenty of other great videos online for that). We do it more for entertainment and goofiness. But at least you can see how we continually stir, make the decoction too dry by accident, etc. Check it out, and if you guys like our vids please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
[ame="http://youtu.be/alfs4doeA9w"][YOUTUBE]alfs4doeA9w[YOUTUBE][/ame]

 

[lhommedieu]

Weyermann's recipe can be made using tri decoction, as well as the one you proposed. The only problem with Weyermann's recipe with a decoction is that the cara's and munich would become assertive and throw off the balance. You are correct, Weyermann recipe is a step mash. The cara and munich were added to attempt to duplicate the same product as a decoction produces, using step infusion. Regardless, of the method used. The main mash will require two different beta rest temps and one alpha rest. Conversion rest temps, are conversion rest temps, regardless of the process. Also, there are two rests before boiling in the 1st decoction and one rest before boiling in the 2nd decoction. The rest temps are determined by pH. The rest time is determined by what you consider a thick mash is and again, pH. That's why I mentioned in various posts and maybe in a PM to you. That, if conversion in the decoction doesn't take place within 20 minutes, thin it down. Be aware that if you are not using floor malt and are using standard pils malt. Standard Weyermann pils sticks at pH 5.8, if you are using distilled water. Certainly, you aren't going to use distilled water for brewing. Due to water pH, etc., 5.8 pH might be unattainable. Another reason why cara and munich are in the recipe; they are fairly acidic and will aid in mash acidulation. Problems will arise when it comes to boiling the mash if pH is haywire. You will need to pay more attention to your water chemistry. If you are going to use standard pils, you added more into the equation. If for some odd reason, other than not being able to get floor malt, you decide to use standard pils. You are making things more difficult for yourself. Using wheat in a first ever decoction is going to be hard enough. Why create extra issues? I'd make the simpler recipe you proposed, adding sauer malz and using floor malt instead of standard Weyermann's pils. Low modified floor malt was used in German wheat beer before high modified was invented.

Thanks - that clarifies things for me, although my thought process is starting to resemble what a poorly done decoction process looks like at the sparging stage.

When you say "low modified floor malt," do you mean Weyermann's "Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt?" Commercial sellers like Northern Brewer describe it as a "slightly under-modified malt," so I am not sure. You also mentioned, in another thread, that Weyermann's is coming out with a "Recipe" brand that will be less modified than their standard Bo Pils...