Hi All. I've searched the forums and havent seemed to find quite the topic I'm referring to here so I was curious. Has anyone ever tried boiling the mash after a sacch rest to attain some of the caramelization type flavors achieved in a decoction mash? This is assuming you've held for the full sacch rest to complete conversion. I know tannins can be an issue but if full conversion is achieved, and pH is monitored and adjusted down with acid if it starts to creep, then in theory, couldnt this be a plausible approach? Maybe it's not quite as good as decoction since you are boiling with alot of the liquid vs a thick portion of the grains, but I'd still think it could achieve something more than it would without it? Am I not thinking of something here as to why it wouldnt work?
Boiling Mash Post Conversion to Mimic Decoction Maillard Reactions
- Thread starter jsvarney5
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
I've boiled a small portion of the mash while the other 80% was running through a step mash schedule and only added it back in for the last 10 minutes. I can't say whether it perfectly mimicked a true decoction.
Maillard reactions aren't happening to any significant tastable extent in any decoction. You'll get a couple SRM of color from it but no flavor differences. I haven't seen any blind tasting panel results that contradict these statements.
Are you saying you dont believe there are flavor differences coming from beer that has used decoction vs beers that arent? Or just specifically related to maillard reactions. Decoction adds a pretty substantial flavor difference in my opinion vs beers that arent, which has me questioning this method since im not set up to do a traditional decoction mash. Was just wondering if anyone has tried it is all
I am saying that if you aren't doing a blind tasting that you are likely kidding yourself. I am also hinting that Maillard reactions are reported as not actually occurring in any detectable manner at typical gravities and temperatures.
I am also currently drunk and might not be speaking coherently at present, but am able to respond later when sober if there are any further questions. You might not be able to detect my state since I am still somehow able to spell correctly and use proper grammar, but I assure you it is true, as I come closer to passing out at 10:30pm after an extended session. Cheers.
I am also currently drunk and might not be speaking coherently at present, but am able to respond later when sober if there are any further questions. You might not be able to detect my state since I am still somehow able to spell correctly and use proper grammar, but I assure you it is true, as I come closer to passing out at 10:30pm after an extended session. Cheers.
Sorry, can't help myself...
Red over White
Well-Known Member
You do run the risk of mechanically liberating starch from boiling that can end up in your fermenter. Decoction is a touchy subject, but there are subtle differences in body, foam and flavor. Weihenstephaner Helles and Weihenstephaner Premium Original are excellent examples to try side by side and see if you taste a difference. I do a decoction in my fired mashtun first and then step mash. The foam on those beers really stands out, it takes a few minutes to pour a full glass.
This, and I'd worry about tannins.
There's nothing tricky about doing an actual decoction when you don't care at all about using it to achieve the correct temperatures for a step mash. Do your saccharification rest for 20 or 30 minutes, pull out some thick mash, boil it for 20 minutes, add it back in to your mashing vessel, and rest for 20 more minutes.
If conversion is complete (no starch left) at the end of the mash, where would this starch come from?
Brew on
Why would boiling the mash at the end release any more tannins than a normal decoction (i.e. an insignificant amount)?
Brew on
Incomplete gelatinization; that is, starch you wouldn’t be able to access if you kept mashing, but if you boil is freed up.If conversion is complete (no starch left) at the end of the mash, where would this starch come from?
Brew on
A few reasons. You’re boiling all of the grain rather than a quarter or third of it, so you extract three to four times more tannins than from a decoction. Plus there’s something to the idea (I can’t find primary literature) that part of the “decoction taste” is in fact tannin extraction, but that “some tannins might be good” does not imply “more tannins are better.” And the pH will likely be different decocting the thick mash than simply boiling the contents of your mash tun. I won’t say for sure that tannins will be a problem boiling your mash, but I definitely think it’s worth worrying about, for the reasons given.Why would boiling the mash at the end release any more tannins than a normal decoction (i.e. an insignificant amount)?
Brew on
But, that is a case of incomplete conversion during the mash. Not what I asked about.
Brew on
Red over White
Well-Known Member
Decoction is known to grant access to a bit more starch. My 3 roller at 50 rpm still doesn't open small kernels or makes every proper cracked kernel 100% available & I do stir and mix the cracked grain before underlettting. Obviously no worries if you have a corona mill gapped down.If conversion is complete (no starch left) at the end of the mash, where would this starch come from?
Brew on
Red over White
Well-Known Member
Do you normally employ decoctions?Let's see, if I boil 1/3 of the grain three times for a triple decoction ...
Brew on
Is complete conversion when further mashing does not produce more sugar, and when there is no starch left in solution, and you have a negative iodine test?But, that is a case of incomplete conversion during the mash. Not what I asked about.
Brew on
You can propose another definition of conversion, I suppose, in which case full conversion is rarely if ever achieved.
Then you’re still boiling 40% more of the grain when you boil the whole mash. Potentially at a higher pH.Let's see, if I boil 1/3 of the grain three times for a triple decoction ...
Brew on
Full conversion = no starch remaining that could be converted. Simple. And yes, lots of brewers do not achieve full conversion in their mashes, but it is achievable. Many typical crushes and mash schedules are inadequate to achieve full conversion.
Brew on
I think I understand how you got the 40% number, but that only makes a difference if a single boiling removes a majority of the available tannins from the grain boiled. If only a small fraction of the available tannins are extracted during a typical decoction boil, then boiling 1/3 three times has essentially the same effect as boiling all of the grain once. Any data on what the reality is?
Brew on
It is not easy to get 100% gelatinization. Most brewers — even those who check starch and mash until they have a negative iodine test — will find that boiling their entire mash will solubilize additional starch that will go into their fermenter unconverted. This is a reason not to boil your mash, which addresses the OP’s question in a way that picking at the definition of conversion does not.Full conversion = no starch remaining that could be converted. Simple. And yes, lots of brewers do not achieve full conversion in their mashes, but it is achievable. Many typical crushes and mash schedules are inadequate to achieve full conversion.
Brew on
Fair enough. The elephant in the room is the pH, which I think is likely to be higher in a thin mash.I think I understand how you got the 40% number, but that only makes a difference if a single boiling removes a majority of the available tannins from the grain boiled. If only a small fraction of the available tannins are extracted during a typical decoction boil, then boiling 1/3 three times has essentially the same effect as boiling all of the grain once. Any data on what the reality is?
Brew on
That's gonna depend on how the brewing water was treated in the beginning. There is no reason that a thin and thick mash cannot be adjusted to the same pH.
Brew on
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 5,970
And if starting with distilled water, the pH will for practical purposes be the same with any amount of water, given the same grain bill and same salt and/or acid additions.
I agree that many brewers don't achieve 100% gelatinization in their mashes, and in such cases boiling the mash is likely to result in the release of soluble starch.
I'm not a fan of the iodine test. Many brewers exclude grain from the test, because it's easier to pass the test that way. But, the residual, ungelatinized starch is going to be in the grain bits, not in the liquid. I am a proponent of testing the SG against the SG that would be achieved at 100% conversion.
Brew on
Ok. So many brewers could potentially have a problem if they boil the mash as suggested by the OP. I think we agree on this.
Red over White
Well-Known Member
If conversion is complete (no starch left) at the end of the mash, where would this starch come from?
Brew on
I agree that many brewers don't achieve 100% gelatinization in their mashes, and in such cases boiling the mash is likely to result in the release of soluble starch.
Brew on
I'm not sure what just happened in this thread, maybe it was a mashing miracle
Why would boiling the mash at the end release any more tannins than a normal decoction (i.e. an insignificant amount)?
Brew on
That's gonna depend on how the brewing water was treated in the beginning. There is no reason that a thin and thick mash cannot be adjusted to the same pH.
Brew on
You may need to play a more active role in regulating pH when boiling the full mash; this is not something you would necessarily worry about if you did a normal decoction. Assuming you adjust the pH, tannins should not be a problem.
