All grain first lager, advise needed.

[nitz146]

I just fermented my first lager (schwarzbier). I was shooting for a OG of 1.051 but over shot my gravity to 1.058 because I just started milling my own grain. I made a 2.5 L starter and let it ferment out and decanted using WLP 830 German lager yeast. I have the carboy temperature controlled in a chest freezer with a dual ranco and I pitched at a temperature of 50 F and kept it there for about 5 days . At about the 5 day mark the air lock activity slowed considerably so I raised the temp to 52 F for 3 days. After 3 days I raised the temp to 60 F for the diacetyl rest and to assure full attenuation and left it there for a week. I pulled a gravity reading today ( 2 weeks after pitching) and my FG is at 1.020. What do you think I should do now? Pitch some more yeast? Any help is appreciated.

 

[eluterio]

Pull another sample 24 hours after your last sample to see if its still at 1.020. Also, make sure your hydrometer is calibrated. If its not and off you could be lower or even higher.

Taste it if it taste good and drinkable Id bottle or keg it. If you want it to drop in gravity dump a fresh yeast onto it, no starter needed it think, and see what happens.

What was your recipe and mash schedule? You might have had a lots of unfermentable sugars aka dextrin that lead to this higher gravity reading.

 

[Gazza19]

I'd be patient. Sounds like you rushed it - lagers take time. Leave it at 55 for a few weeks and then check gravity again. You still need to lager it anyway which should take at least 4 weeks. If it was a delicate lager, you might be able to taste all the temperature swings. But with a black lager you may not notice.

 

[nitz146]

What was your recipe and mash schedule? You might have had a lots of unfermentable sugars aka dextrin that lead to this higher gravity reading.

For a 4 gallon batch

3 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (44.1 %)
3 lbs 3.0 oz Munich I (40.2 %)
8.0 oz Coffee Malt (6.3 %)
5.0 oz Chocolate Malt (3.9 %)
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (3.1 %)
3.0 oz Carafa II (2.4 %)

Target mash temp was 154. When I doughed in my mash temp was 160 but I dumped some ice into the mash and had it down to 154 in about 5-7 min. Oh and I oxygenated with pure O2 for 1 minute before pitching.

I'd be patient. Sounds like you rushed it - lagers take time. Leave it at 55 for a few weeks and then check gravity again. You still need to lager it anyway which should take at least 4 weeks. If it was a delicate lager, you might be able to taste all the temperature swings. But with a black lager you may not notice.

I may just do this. Ah, so I have to treat these lagers more delicate than I do with my ales. Well if this one doesn't come out well ill chalk it up to learning hopefully my next one will be better.

 

[eluterio]

I was chatting with a pro brewer the other day and we got on this topic of missing mash temps. He was saying when you miss high and try to drop temp you still started converting the starched into sugars. With your higher temp could be a variable on why you had a higher gravity reading. I know there will be others who call bs on this. I don't have any scientific data to back what the pro brewer was saying but I have non that say otherwise. It's on my to do list to research.

 

[nitz146]

I was chatting with a pro brewer the other day and we got on this topic of missing mash temps. He was saying when you miss high and try to drop temp you still started converting the starched into sugars. With your higher temp could be a variable on why you had a higher gravity reading. I know there will be others who call bs on this. I don't have any scientific data to back what the pro brewer was saying but I have non that say otherwise. It's on my to do list to research.

I have heard something about this as well, that really it only takes around 20-30 mins or so to actually have full starch conversion. If that is true then alot of my starches converted at this higher mash temp.

Also, since I made my starter a few days in advance I made a big enough starter for a 1.051 beer and mine actually came out at 1.058. Not sure if this had any effect either.

 

[eluterio]

I wouldn't worry about your stater for a 1051 and had a 1058. I don't think that will play that much of a difference.

 

[Cyclman]

Sounds like a high mash temp, could be causing the issues. I would do a single step mash in the high 140s.

 

[nitz146]

Ok so it looks like there is still some air lock activity about once every 5-7 minutes. So ill just keep it at 60 and forget about it for a few weeks and then recheck the gravity then. Fingers crossed.

 

[eluterio]

Ok so it looks like there is still some air lock activity about once every 5-7 minutes. So ill just keep it at 60 and forget about it for a few weeks and then recheck the gravity then. Fingers crossed.

Good luck should turn out just fine!

 

[Gavin C]

Not trying to be a debbie downer but with the high mash temperature and quite a high persentage of specialty malts (15.7% ish) in your grain bill I think your FG is not likely to drop much further.

I'd finish it up, keg it as per your original plan and chalk it up to experience. Next one will be better.

As a comparison here is a recipe for a Schwartzbier with a much smaller percentage of specialty malts and a mash temp of 152F

The intermittent bubbling may well be off-gassing of the disolved CO2

 

[nitz146]

Not trying to be a debbie downer but with the high mash temperature and quite a high persentage of specialty malts (15.7% ish) in your grain bill I think your FG is not likely to drop much further.

I'd finish it up, keg it as per your original plan and chalk it up to experience. Next one will be better.

As a comparison here is a recipe for a Schwartzbier with a much smaller percentage of specialty malts and a mash temp of 152F

The intermittent bubbling may well be off-gassing of the disolved CO2

Yea, your right. Too much specialty malts. Should have kept it closer to 10%. Ill check the gravity in the next few days and ill just keg it up. Thanks.

 

[Gavin C]

Sorry to hear that.

The gravity hasn't dropped any more? Still at 1.020?

 

[nitz146]

Sorry to hear that.

The gravity hasn't dropped any more? Still at 1.020?

Just checked the gravity and its still at 1.020. Debating if I should still put all the time into it to lager and keg or if I should cut my losses and dump it and try again next time. Ill be brewing a dry stout in two weeks.

 

[nitz146]

On second thought, I think I will keep it since it is my first lager. I think just going through the lagering process in itself will be a great learning experience for next time. Thanks for everyones help!

 

[Gavin C]

I'd keg it up and see what happens. If it's no good after a few weeks dump it. I wouldn't want it tying up kegerator space but I only have two taps. Woe is me.

On to the next one I reckon. I'm not a big believer in spending time to make a poor beer less poor.

 

[nitz146]

I'm not a big believer in spending time to make a poor beer less poor.

Well said. I totally agree.

 

[joshesmusica]

you haven't commented on the flavor i don't think. even with the high FG, how's it tasting?

you might as well lager it, if only for the experience of it. check out the process.

another alternative to if you don't want to tie up keg space is to bottle it. which does definitely put more work into what could be a poor beer. but at least by bottling it you get to keep it around, you're not, then, wasting your money, and you're not in a rush to drink it up.

 

[nitz146]

The flavor was pretty good although I will most likely change the recipe for next time I brew it. My goal was to try to get something close to Death and Taxes by Moonlight Brewing and this one definitely missed the mark.

Your right about the bottling, those were my thoughts exactly. I could bottle some up even if its a 1/4 of the batch just too see what happens.

I do have a bottling question. Am I right to assume that even though it finished at 1.020 and I bottle it, I should not expect bottle bombs? Since the yeast could only ferment it down to 1.020 I would think they wont ferment it down any further. So they would really just ferment the corn sugar for carbonation now. Any thoughts?

 

[Gavin C]

The flavor was pretty good although I will most likely change the recipe for next time I brew it. My goal was to try to get something close to Death and Taxes by Moonlight Brewing and this one definitely missed the mark.

Your right about the bottling, those were my thoughts exactly. I could bottle some up even if its a 1/4 of the batch just too see what happens.

I do have a bottling question. Am I right to assume that even though it finished at 1.020 and I bottle it, I should not expect bottle bombs? Since the yeast could only ferment it down to 1.020 I would think they wont ferment it down any further. So they would really just ferment the corn sugar for carbonation now. Any thoughts?

You are correct. Bottle in the usual manner.

 

[beersk]

My bet is on not enough yeast pitched. Lagers need a lot. I typically make step up starters for mine on the first go. Then harvest the yeast and pitch 8-12oz slurry in subsequent batches. The mash temp and amount of specialty grains have a little to do with it, but shouldn't be the sole cause of the under attenuation.
I do Hochkurz step mashes for my lagers. 20-30 minute rest at 145, infuse with boiling water up to 158-160 for 30-60 minutes. Always finish between 1.010 and 1.014, depending on the style.
How long I let each mash step rest depends on how dry I want the final beer to be. So for a helles I might go 30 minutes at 145 and 30 minutes at 158. For a dunkel, I might go 20 minutes at 145 and 60 minutes at 158. I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference though, but it's easy enough to do and creates a consistently fermentable wort, so I do it.

 

[nitz146]

My bet is on not enough yeast pitched. Lagers need a lot. I typically make step up starters for mine on the first go. Then harvest the yeast and pitch 8-12oz slurry in subsequent batches. The mash temp and amount of specialty grains have a little to do with it, but shouldn't be the sole cause of the under attenuation.

Interesting take on it. I did use Jamil's yeast calculator and I hit the numbers that it was telling me to do. I have a 5000 ml flask and did around a 2.5 L starter on a stir plate at room temp. I let it ferment out for about 48 hours and then I put it in my fridge for a day to drop the yeast. Then I put it in my chest freezer for another day that was holding a 50 F temp to get it to the same temp as pitching temp. This was the first time that I tried the decant method with my starters. Normally I pitch my starters at high krausen. But interesting to hear you say that the mash temp and amount of specialty grains had little to do with it. I was actually kinda surprised that it would be that sensitive to those two factors.

 

[beersk]

Well, I'm sure the mash temp had a little to do with, as well as the specialty grains. But it's just weird how sometimes a beer like that will ferment down to 1.015 one time, and 1.020 another time. A 2.5L starter doesn't seem like enough, even though it was stir plated... I could be wrong here, so take my statements with a grain of salt.

 

[Flyboy84]

Interesting take on it. I did use Jamil's yeast calculator and I hit the numbers that it was telling me to do. I have a 5000 ml flask and did around a 2.5 L starter on a stir plate at room temp. I let it ferment out for about 48 hours and then I put it in my fridge for a day to drop the yeast. Then I put it in my chest freezer for another day that was holding a 50 F temp to get it to the same temp as pitching temp. This was the first time that I tried the decant method with my starters. Normally I pitch my starters at high krausen. But interesting to hear you say that the mash temp and amount of specialty grains had little to do with it. I was actually kinda surprised that it would be that sensitive to those two factors.

I doubt it had anything to do with pitch amounts and is mostly mash temp and the specialty grains. Underpitching doesn't mean the yeast will stop working after a while, it just creates off flavors from the yeast in the early phases of fermentation.

Please don't dump the beer because of some silly numbers. If it tastes good, drink it and take good notes for improvements on the next batch.

Off topic, but I've never understood this community's obsession with hitting gravity numbers. If I'm within about 10% ( ie .008 on a 1.080 OG) of what beersmith says, I'm fine with it and I certainly would not dump a batch because of it.