Adding sugar to primary to drive fermentation

[DonT]

Hi folks, I'm fermenting a Belgian golden strong currently, OG 1.072, and I'd like to get it down to 1.008ish. It's at 1.015 as of last night and it looks like it's starting to slow down, today is day 8.
So I guess my question is, what would be an appropriate time/gravity/amount to add sugar to ensure my planned FG?
Other details: 2lbs candi syrup in boil, WLP570 and S-04 pitched and temp has been raised ~2*F per day

 

[hotbeer]

I don't know that will assure you anything. Your beer is already at 78% attenuation. Getting it to 1.008 will be 88% attenuation which is outside the range of 74 - 82% that SafAle claims for S-04. Though you still are well under the 9 - 11% that they claim for it's alcohol tolerance.

If it's just slowing down right now, just be patient and see what it winds up at. Adding sugar might just leave you with a sweet beer and cloudy mess.

Though at eight days in, you might only get a few more points. There are other reasons not hit the expected FG. Though I'm curious about your statement

S-04 pitched and temp has been raised ~2*F per day

2°F per day from what temp did you start? This is an ale, where you doing this like a lager?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Adding simple sugar doesn't reduce FG. Replacing malt with simple sugar does.

The S-04 very well might have reached its terminal attenuation, but the co-pitched WLP570 is STA1 positive. Give it time.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't know much about step feeding, but my last strong golden ale went from 1.075 to 1.011 without doing anything special. Different yeast though.

 

[hotbeer]

I blew right over the wlp570 missing it entirely and didn't even consider that. Yes, give it more time and don't be in a hurry.

 

[day_trippr]

I tried using Beersmith3 to answer the question - and got interesting results.
I cloned one of my hazy recipes that has an OG of 1.075 and an expected FG of 1.013.
I added a pound of corn sugar, and the expected FG dropped to 1.012.
But with every additional pound of corn sugar the FG went up.
So...I don't think you're going to get far with the plan...

Cheers!

 

[Kickass]

Oversimplified but, adding simple sugar won’t make more complex sugars go away. It’s just the simple sugars that’ll go away leaving you with the same amount of complex sugars.

The extra simple sugar will create more alcohol, which being less dense, might make your hydrometer read a point or two lower but it hasn’t actually reduced the amount of complex sugar.

 

[Bassman2003]

I think you missed the window for the yeast and the sugar. The sugar is more for a dry finish due to it completely fermenting out (no flavor left behind) compared to the malt (flavor left behind) it replaces in the recipe. If you ADD fermentables now and they ferment away, you are basically where you started right? You end up just adding alcohol. What you are looking for is the remaining sugar (potential alcohol) to be consumed which is up to the yeast. You have already raised the temps which is your only lever at this point outside of time.

For the next brew, try mashing with a longer time spent in beta (144-148F) and replace more of your recipe fermentables with sugar from the get go. Also try more of the Belgian yeast and drop the S-O4 which does not attenuate like the Belgian strains do.

 

[Climb]

I have found WLP570 to be a very slow fermenter. Give it a minimum of 3 weeks. At warmer temps, WLP570 will generate a nice subtle peppery flavor which I really enjoy. Notice that WLP570 is a low flocculator. My batches never cleared, even over several months. This is yet another reason to give it more time in the fermenter. Good luck!

 

[MikeCo]

Give it more time. That yeast can take a while to get to terminal gravity. My experience is that it attenuates very slowly toward the finish.

 

[DonT]

I think you missed the window for the yeast and the sugar. The sugar is more for a dry finish due to it completely fermenting out (no flavor left behind) compared to the malt (flavor left behind) it replaces in the recipe. If you ADD fermentables now and they ferment away, you are basically where you started right? You end up just adding alcohol. What you are looking for is the remaining sugar (potential alcohol) to be consumed which is up to the yeast. You have already raised the temps which is your only lever at this point outside of time.

For the next brew, try mashing with a longer time spent in beta (144-148F) and replace more of your recipe fermentables with sugar from the get go. Also try more of the Belgian yeast and drop the S-O4 which does not attenuate like the Belgian strains do.

My goal here is to get a dry finish... I had read somewhere that adding sugar to drive down the gravity was a thing, but I couldn't find it again so I'm just going by memory.
Yeah, the mash... let me relate that story... I just started doing Yeast Oxygen Scavenging and I heat the HLT to 115F for about an hour with the yeast and sugar. Well, I forgot to step up the temp before I underlet the grain...oops. As soon as I saw the temp I cranked it up 144F. It took about 15min to come up to temp and I left it there for 40min, then turned it up to 155F for another 40min, then did a mash out at 168F for 10min. I hit my expected post mash gravity so I don't think the mash will be an issue.
I haven't hears that 570 is a slow attenuator so I'll just hang out and see where it goes.
Thanks for everyone's replies!

 

[DBhomebrew]

I haven't hears that 570 is a slow attenuator so I'll just hang out and see where it goes.

The key is its STA1+ gene. It's diastatic. It secretes an enzyme that will break down the big sugars into smaller ones just like in the mash. If your 570 wasn't a big pitch (co-pitched and all) it might take longer due to fewer cells doing the secreting.

 

[Bassman2003]

My goal here is to get a dry finish... I had read somewhere that adding sugar to drive down the gravity was a thing, but I couldn't find it again so I'm just going by memory.
Yeah, the mash... let me relate that story... I just started doing Yeast Oxygen Scavenging and I heat the HLT to 115F for about an hour with the yeast and sugar. Well, I forgot to step up the temp before I underlet the grain...oops. As soon as I saw the temp I cranked it up 144F. It took about 15min to come up to temp and I left it there for 40min, then turned it up to 155F for another 40min, then did a mash out at 168F for 10min. I hit my expected post mash gravity so I don't think the mash will be an issue.
I haven't hears that 570 is a slow attenuator so I'll just hang out and see where it goes.
Thanks for everyone's replies!

Sounds good. A couple of things:

1) I am trying to move away from beta mash times and go to refractometer measurements. The rule of thumb being - do not leave beta until you are around 90% of your pre-boil gravity. This makes your rest as long as it needs to be rather than a set amount of time. But, refractometers get inaccurate above 150F (I will have a video out shortly on this topic). So you might want to test if you have one.

2) Sugar works to dry out a beer if it is a percentage of a grain bill. So when you design your recipe, determine if you want 10%, 15% or 20% sugar to make up the malt bill. The more, the dryer. This means less grain on brewday with the sugar dump 5 minutes before the end of the boil. (or in the fermenter as some do).

 

[DBhomebrew]

... or during the lauter.

 

[DonT]

1) I am trying to move away from beta mash times and go to refractometer measurements. The rule of thumb being - do not leave beta until you are around 90% of your pre-boil gravity. This makes your rest as long as it needs to be rather than a set amount of time. But, refractometers get inaccurate above 150F (I will have a video out shortly on this topic). So you might want to test if you have one.

I take refractometer measurements throughout the mash, because I like to track the progression. I haven't heard that rule before and I'll keep it in mind the next time I do a Hockurst sytle mash, which is what I was attempting to do.
I added two pounds of golden candy syrup at 5min.
I just took another gravity reading, it's now at 1.013 @ 79F. I won't be raising the temp any higher so I guess I'm going to ride this out.

 

[DonT]

Update: It's been sitting at 1.013 since Sunday. That's 81% attenuation.... I was hoping for 1.008. I guess I'll just let it sit for a couple of weeks. This is Day 12 of fermentation.

 

[Bassman2003]

Your goal of 1.008 is pretty mighty. The yeast need to be in stellar shape and the wort very fermentable etc... Since it has not moved in 3-4 days, you might be done on this attempt. Are you lagering the beer? I think my blonde & tripel beers always taste better after four weeks in the lager fridge. So maybe do a slow ramp down and try to keep some yeast alive and squeeze a bit more attenuation at the same time?

 

[MikeCo]

What was the grain bill for the recipe? In my experience 1.008 is very feasible for a BGSA, but it assumes a high percentage of simple sugars and a low mash temperature. I have had one finish at 1.005 with OG 1.070 and 17% corn sugar. The rest of the grain bill was just Belgian Pilsner. This was using Wyeast 1388 which is similar to the White Labs yeast you are using.

 

[DonT]

What was the grain bill for the recipe? In my experience 1.008 is very feasible for a BGSA, but it assumes a high percentage of simple sugars and a low mash temperature. I have had one finish at 1.005 with OG 1.070 and 17% corn sugar. The rest of the grain bill was just Belgian Pilsner. This was using Wyeast 1388 which is similar to the White Labs yeast you are using.

12# pilsner
1# Red Wheat
2# Golden Candi Syrup, added at 5min (I'm thinking next time adding half the syrup at the beginning of fermentation)

 

[TrekNarrowPaths]

Hi folks, I'm fermenting a Belgian golden strong currently, OG 1.072, and I'd like to get it down to 1.008ish. It's at 1.015 as of last night and it looks like it's starting to slow down, today is day 8.
So I guess my question is, what would be an appropriate time/gravity/amount to add sugar to ensure my planned FG?
Other details: 2lbs candi syrup in boil, WLP570 and S-04 pitched and temp has been raised ~2*F per day

Aloha Don,
My two cents is this, you can always dilute it with more purified water if you want to lower the gravity. Don't focus so much on the temperature. Hope this helps