Access dryer outlet on other side of wall

[samuwilliam]

Hoping to tap the keg of knowledge and get some thoughts on how I should proceed.

I've got an electric brewery set up in my basement but missing one key ingredient. Electricity. I don't have room in my panel to run another 240v circuit, so that's off the table.


I was originally planning on cutting a hole through an interior wall into the laundry room from the brewery space. Through the hole I'd pull a generator cable which would plug into the dryer outlet, with the other end connecting to my panel. This will work but running a temporary cable through a wall cavity is a code violation from what I've read.

Other options include:

-Wire another dryer outlet on the wall in the brewery space and wire both outlets to a transfer switch. (These switches seem expensive)

-Run pvc conduit between the two walls with a duckbill plate on either side and pass the cable through that. (I think this is still a code violation but sounds a little safer as the cable is better protected and easily pulled through.)

-Wire a male L14 plug in the laundry room and a female L14 on the brewery side. Connect the dryer outlet to the male L14 and the panel to the female.

Any other options I'm not considering here? I'm guessing this is sort of a unique situation but if anyone has suggestions id love to hear them.

Thanks

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm sure you'll get build ideas but I run a 25 ft extension cord from my dryer outlet up the stairs to my kitchen every brew day for years without issue. I just roll it up when I'm done.

If your worried about violations from plugging and unplugging a cord because it goes through a sheetrock hole on brew day your a better man than me. I wouldn't think twice about it....easy....simple...free...done

I run extension cords in the rain all the time. Not to mention my Christmas lights are plugged in buried in 12 inches of snow.
Snaking a cord through a 1/2" piece of sheetrock on brew day is not something I'd loose sleep over. Its not a permanent connection

 

[samuwilliam]

My cord is already about 25 feet but I figure I'd need another 10 - 15 to snake it all the way around to the other room. Through the wall is a much shorter distance.

Maybe I'm being overly particular. Even if I leave it there permanently it would.only be plugged in on brew day. I still might run it through a conduit just to stop it from rubbing on the edge of the sheetrock.

Thanks for the sanity check!

 

[BrunDog]

I like the option: Wire another dryer outlet on the wall in the brewery space.

Can you do this but boot the transfer switch? I am not an expert on the code, but can't you have multiple outlets on the same line? Works for 15A outlets on a 15A breaker. Maybe the rules don't apply for 240V outlets - a code expert can weigh in on that.

 

[LarMoeCur]

@BrunDog- You are correct. The string of small outlets on a 15a circuit will most likely never exceed 15a even with a light plugged into ever outlet. Now putting two 240v outlets on the same 30a circuit. If the wife throws in a load of laundry while you are brewing it will for sure exceed a 30a draw. Starting motors draws a ton of amps even with capacitors to help. Code violation for sure.

You have to really check your local code to be sure. Running romex through PVC or conduit could be a violation. Running PVC inside an interior wall could be a violation. Inspectors won't be knocking out sheet rock to check interior runs but exterior electrical runs will for sure get checked. Simple math...Two 240v 30a plugs and only one breaker=Code violation.

 

[itsnotrequired]

it is NOT a code violation to have more than one 30 amp receptacle on a circuit, it just isn't very common in residential applications. you could have a hundred on there if you wanted to. no transfer switch is required. it is on the user of the system to not overload the circuit and is no different than plugging a dozen hotplates into the same circuit in your kitchen.

all that being said, there are some additional rules for multiple receptacles on a 30 amp circuit, the biggest being that no single cord-and-plug connected piece of utilization equipment can exceed 80% of the circuit rating i.e. 24 amps. so if your dryer or brew panel is rated more than 24 amps, you technically wouldn't be allowed to even plug them in one at a time. practically, it is not a safety concern if one of those is operated at, say, 26 amps for less than three hours continuous but if strictly following code, 24 amp would be your limit. another item may be if the dryer manual has explicit instructions that it must be used on a dedicated circuit. it would also technically be a violation to not follow manufacturer's instructions but practically, not an issue.

regarding the cord through the wall, that would be a violation, even if you had a pvc sleeve or similar. again, not a practical safety concern but a violation nonetheless.

if it was me and both the dryer and brew panel are rated less than 24 amps, i would install a 30 amp receptacle on the brewery side and wire it into the existing dryer circuit, no transfer switch. clean, convenient and code-complaint.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I would run a second 30A outlet on the dedicated dryer circuit and call it a day. You should unplug the dryer when you brew, but so long as you don't run both at the same time, you will be fine.

How much do you like your house? I hate full electric panels, and you will likely run into this issue again at some point down the road. Replacing your current full panel with a newer, larger panel is often a wise investment. When we were house shopping, that was one of the first things I looked for, because a full panel is symptomatic of other potential issues. A full panel is almost by definition overloaded, and as power needs increase in the future (electric cars will be happening in the next 20 years), additional circuits and higher amperage loads will be par for the course.

In other words, dropping $1,000 on a new panel is probably a good long-term investment.

 

[samuwilliam]

Thanks for the info everyone. You've been most helpful.

For some reason I always thought that you couldn't put more than one outlet on a 240v circuit but to your point, it's really no different than 120v. I have a big hole in the wall at the moment to get at the water and waste lines so running a 2nd outlet off the existing one should be dead easy.

As for the full panel, yes, it's on my list to get the entrance upgraded. My house is old though and there's no doubt existing code violations that will need to be addressed before they'd hook a new service up. Silly ones, like not enough plugs on the kitchen counter top and light switches at the top and bottom of the basement stairs etc.

Thanks again to all. Much appreciated.

 

[BrunDog]

Thank you @itsnotrequired... can always count in you to keep our code knowledge in line.

 

[jrgtr42]

Why would it be a violation to have multiple things plugged into one circuit? It's go that route, don't worry about a switcher, and just let the Mrs. know that OP is brewing, don't put any laundry in for the time being. Worst that would happen is a popped breaker. Flip it back and you're good to go.

 

[jrgtr42]

I have some second / third runnings saved up for starter wort. I'll just run a quick boil when I want to use it and good to go.
I use spent grains for bread and pizza dough, and toss the rest in my garden as mulch.

 

[triethylborane]

As for the full panel, yes, it's on my list to get the entrance upgraded. My house is old though and there's no doubt existing code violations that will need to be addressed before they'd hook a new service up. Silly ones, like not enough plugs on the kitchen counter top and light switches at the top and bottom of the basement stairs etc.

The rule of thumb is if you touch it, then it has to be brought up to code. If you are installing a new sub panel, the new sub panel must meet code. The fact your kitchen does not have enough receptacles does not matter and the inspector cannot say "well since you are installing this new sub panel, your entire house must be brought up to code." Kick the inspector to the curb if he says that.

So, no, having "new service" installed does not mean you have to bring the entire electrical system of house up to code. If you replace the main service panel . . . maybe so, but installing a new branch circuit in a panel only requires that new branch circuit to meet code.

Also, I really appreciate @itsnotrequired for stating the FACTS, not opinion. And @JOHNNYROTTEN, his approach with an extension cord is also a very easy approach to the situation.

 

[z-bob]

I am not an electrician, but I studied the code book about 20 years ago when I rewired my house. The code has changed a little since then...

Which dryer outlet is it? A 3-wire 240/120V outlet (NEMA 10-30R) has to be connected to the main panel, not a subpanel because it uses the grounded wire for both a neutral and equipment ground (one of the very few applications where you could do that.) I think that implies that it has to be a dedicated circuit with just one outlet.

If it's a modern 4-wire dryer outlet (NEMA 14-30R) I don't think there would be any problem with adding another receptacle and calling it a branch circuit. Your dryer already has to comply with the 80% rule because it's a resistance heating load.

 

[z-bob]

An elegant solution would be to cut and frame a little window (hole) in the wall that you can run the cord thru. That's kind of what you suggested in your first post. It's totally different than running a temporary cord inside a wall cavity because the cord is not hidden.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Which dryer outlet is it? A 3-wire 240/120V outlet (NEMA 10-30R) has to be connected to the main panel, not a subpanel because it uses the grounded wire for both a neutral and equipment ground (one of the very few applications where you could do that.) I think that implies that it has to be a dedicated circuit with just one outlet.

If it's a modern 4-wire dryer outlet (NEMA 14-30R) I don't think there would be any problem with adding another receptacle and calling it a branch circuit. Your dryer already has to comply with the 80% rule because it's a resistance heating load.

excellent point on an older dryer configuration! if it is an older style with only two hots and one ground, the only code-compliant way to use the brew panel on it would be if the brew panel was 240 volt only and had no 120 volt loads. per code, you could still have multiple receptacles on the circuit as the neutral-ground bond is at the dryer itself, not at the receptacle but the 120 volt limitation would remain. if a modern 3-wire receptacle (with separate ground and neutral), no worries.

although a dryer has resistance heating elements in it, it is not considered a resistance heating load as far as nec rules are concerned. it is limited to 80% due to it being plug-connected on a 30 amp circuit, not because of resistance heating.

An elegant solution would be to cut and frame a little window (hole) in the wall that you can run the cord thru. That's kind of what you suggested in your first post. It's totally different than running a temporary cord inside a wall cavity because the cord is not hidden.

as code reads, you can't run a cord 'through' a wall, no distinction is made whether it is covered or not. but this of course begs the question if i made a, say, 10'x8' opening in my wall. can i not run a lamp cord through such an opening in the 'wall'? this is where the code starts to break down...

 

[triethylborane]

Ehh, never mind too far down the rabbit hole.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Why would it be a violation to have multiple things plugged into one circuit? It's go that route, don't worry about a switcher, and just let the Mrs. know that OP is brewing, don't put any laundry in for the time being. Worst that would happen is a popped breaker. Flip it back and you're good to go.

AH..NO...The breaker fails to trip or locks closed from the heat of drawing to much amperage. The wires get red hot, catching the framing on fire. Your house burns to the ground and as it does catches your neighbors house on fire, burning it to the ground and killing both of your families. And because you violated the code the insurance company doesn't pay. You get sued in court for the death of 5 people. Now that would be the worst.

The code is written for this exact reason! Every house that has caught fire from an electrical fire in the last 50 years has had a panel with breakers/fuses. They still burnt. Maybe it wasn't the breakers fault but breaks do fail just the same.

Breakers are safety devices. Just like airbags in car and if your driving down the road think it's ok to crash because you got airbags. You may what to take the bus.

 

[mongoose33]

Can you get an electrician to add a sub-box to your circuit-breaker panel? It's a way to extend the capacity, you'd still have a breaker and it would be a dedicated circuit.

Not the cheapest option, but perhaps the most elegant.

 

[jrgtr42]

AH..NO...The breaker fails to trip or locks closed from the heat of drawing to much amperage. The wires get red hot, catching the framing on fire. Your house burns to the ground and as it does catches your neighbors house on fire, burning it to the ground and killing both of your families. And because you violated the code the insurance company doesn't pay. You get sued in court for the death of 5 people. Now that would be the worst.

The code is written for this exact reason! Every house that has caught fire from an electrical fire in the last 50 years has had a panel with breakers/fuses. They still burnt. Maybe it wasn't the breakers fault but breaks do fail just the same.

Breakers are safety devices. Just like airbags in car and if your driving down the road think it's ok to crash because you got airbags. You may what to take the bus.

OK, fair enough; that's the WORST that could happen. However, most times it would just trip the breaker if someone started the dryer at the same time he was brewing, or vice versa. I still stand behind just saying, don't start laundry till the brew is done.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Adding a sub panel or an additional outlet on the same line when all your doing is plugging something in like everything else that needs plugging in seems like a complete waste. Spend the money where it matters like ventilation or ANYTHING else.

On a side note the double outlet would be by far the WORST idea for one simple reason...the wife.

More than once my wife was going about her business and went to do laundry only to realize my cord was plugged in.
If I was brewing in a separate room she would, like most wifes, thought nothing of my brewing and ran a load of laundry and had a potential disaster. Not to mention maybe frying my panel and the dryer...If the dryer is unplugged with a different cord plugged in she'll say " oh, that's right, he's brewing today" and all will be fine.... Even if you told her you were brewing its an all day event and people are forgetful by nature..bad idea

 

[mongoose33]

Adding a sub panel or an additional outlet on the same line when all your doing is plugging something in like everything else that needs plugging in seems like a complete waste. Spend the money where it matters like ventilation or ANYTHING else.

Well, that depends on whether you want to do it right or do it cheap. For some of us, having it done correctly is part of enjoying what we do.

 

[LarMoeCur]

OK, fair enough; that's the WORST that could happen. However, most times it would just trip the breaker if someone started the dryer at the same time he was brewing, or vice versa. I still stand behind just saying, don't start laundry till the brew is done.

Your new brewery name is "Plug and Pray Brewing Co".

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Well, that depends on whether you want to do it right or do it cheap. For some of us, having it done correctly is part of enjoying what we do.

I wouldn't consider plugging a cord into a dryer outlet wrong...either way the double outlet on one line has potential for trouble and seems the least safe option

 

[mongoose33]

I wouldn't consider plugging a cord into a dryer outlet wrong...either way the double outlet on one line has potential for trouble and seems the least safe option

I wasn't endorsing the double-outlet on one line--I agree, it's not a good idea.

My own breaker panel is plumb full. Something like 40 circuits IIRC. I've wanted to add electric brewing capability but no room. A sub panel is the only reasonable way to make that happen.

I'm not that far away--I actually have a 30-amp outlet in the garage to connect a genny if I have a power outage, and a transfer switch next to the breaker panel, but no code-acceptable way to connect it.

Nothing that money wouldn't solve....

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm not that far away--I actually have a 30-amp outlet in the garage to connect a genny if I have a power outage, and a transfer switch next to the breaker panel, but no code-acceptable way to connect it.

Nothing that money wouldn't solve....

Curious...If you want to go electric and have a 30amp plug in the garage why don't you just brew electric in the garage? A simple portable 5500W BIAB sounds like it would work perfect?

 

[mongoose33]

Curious...If you want to go electric and have a 30amp plug in the garage why don't you just brew electric in the garage? A simple portable 5500W BIAB sounds like it would work perfect?

The problem is the line terminates in a transfer switch connected to six circuits in the house (refrigerators, freezer, furnace, water heater, kitchen).

So I connect the genny to the plug in the garage, and the transfer switch bypasses the normal breaker panel and feeds those six circuits from the generator.

Even if I put in a switch that allowed the line to serve either as a feed to the transfer switch or as a power source from the panel, I still have no place in the panel to add a breaker that size.

Here's what I mean by transfer switch:



The white Romex line at the top connects to the outlet in the garage.

The transfer switch circuits have three settings: Line (which is house current), off, and Gen. When the generator is on, I switch the circuits to "Gen" and they'll run off that current, while at the same time isolating those circuits from the house lines. This prevents generator current from feeding back out into the grid and potentially electrocuting a lineman working on the wires.

So--I have the wiring and outlet in the garage; what I don't have is an easy way to connect that line to the house current while bypassing the transfer switch.

PS: This was installed in advance of Y2K. Know how many times I've ever connected the generator as a result of a power outage in 18 years? Answer: never. We were hit with a tornado in 2014, cut off power from about 10:45pm to the afternoon of the next day, but I didn't hook it up. Freezers and fridges held enough cool to avoid that, but I was close.

 

[triethylborane]

So--I have the wiring and outlet in the garage; what I don't have is an easy way to connect that line to the house current while bypassing the transfer switch.

So is the real issue you do not have space in the panel? If so, have you considered duplex breakers to consolidate some of the 15A 120v circuits in the panel? The panel wiring diagram will show if this is a possibility and where on the panel a duplex can be installed.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Interesting setup. The generator runs the important stuff. Of course because you have the perfect setup the power will never go out...its just the way it works.