A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[HTH1975]

I've read most of this thread, but still very much new to brewing and have a question.

My tap water pH is 7.5, a touch on the alkali side compared to the 5.2pH people suggest for mashing.

I understand that I can add a water treatment (buffer) to lick the pH at 5.2 and that should help with extracting the most sugars from the grains.

My second question is whether adding things like gypsum and such is more to do with taste than to alter the pH. I tend to like beers with a full, creamy mouth feel, not watery, and a robust flavour.

My next brew is a dark wheat beer with Kölsch yeast, a fairly bitter finish and well hopped (according to the recipe). I just want to get my water right before going any further and wasting grains.

 

[NeoBrew]

I understand that I can add a water treatment (buffer) to lick the pH at 5.2 and that should help with extracting the most sugars from the grains.

No, as has been discussed many times in this thread, those one size fits all ph buffers do not work.

My second question is whether adding things like gypsum and such is more to do with taste than to alter the pH. I tend to like beers with a full, creamy mouth feel, not watery, and a robust flavour.

They do both. Each has some affect on ph, some more than others. Each has an affect on flavor, some more than others. It also depends on what style of beer you are brewing of course.

My next brew is a dark wheat beer with Kölsch yeast, a fairly bitter finish and well hopped (according to the recipe). I just want to get my water right before going any further and wasting grains.

Better settle in for the long haul. Brewing water chemistry is a complicated topic. Unless you really understand chemistry and biology (I don't) there is a steep learning curve to figure out what is actually going on. That is the reason for this thread in the first place. Use what the primer says at first. As you learn more you can start to tweak the numbers to suit your tastes/style/system/local water/etc.

I would highly recommend Bru'n Water. I still don't understand what is really going on with my water, but with Bru'n Water I can at least predict the outcomes for successful beers while I learn.

 

[ajdelange]

My tap water pH is 7.5, a touch on the alkali side compared to the 5.2pH people suggest for mashing.

pH isn't really a measure of acidity or alkalinity but rather a measure of potential acidity or alkalinity. The pH of your water really doesn't have much effect on mash pH. What does is the alkalinity as reported in your water report. From alkalinity you can calculate the amount of acid required to bring the water from the pH it comes out of the tap to the mash pH you want but that's well beyond a 'primer'. Alkalinity depends on pH and the amount of bicarbonate ion in the water.

I understand that I can add a water treatment (buffer) to lick the pH at 5.2 and that should help with extracting the most sugars from the grains.

You can't just pour 5.2 buffer into your mash and have the pH come to 5.2. Well you can but you wouldn't want to. To get the mash to 5.2 you have to add enough acid (hydrogen ions) to overcome the alkalinity of water and grains WRT that pH (alkalinity must always be specified WRT some pH) whether it comes from a buffer or some other source. Phosphoric acid is a much more effective way to reduce mash pH to 5.2 than addition of a pH 5.2 phosphate buffer (you'd need a ton of it). That being said a pH of 5.4 - 5.6 is preferred.

My second question is whether adding things like gypsum and such is more to do with taste than to alter the pH. I tend to like beers with a full, creamy mouth feel, not watery, and a robust flavour.

The idea of the primer is that the lactic acid in sauermalz is the best source of acid for pH adjustment and that one should, recognizing that calcium does have a small effect on mash pH, add only as much calcium chloride and/or gypsum as are necessary to lend the flavors qualities that chloride and sulfate lend.

 

[urg8rb8]

I've read most of this thread, but still very much new to brewing and have a question.

My tap water pH is 7.5, a touch on the alkali side compared to the 5.2pH people suggest for mashing.

I understand that I can add a water treatment (buffer) to lick the pH at 5.2 and that should help with extracting the most sugars from the grains.

My second question is whether adding things like gypsum and such is more to do with taste than to alter the pH. I tend to like beers with a full, creamy mouth feel, not watery, and a robust flavour.

My next brew is a dark wheat beer with Kölsch yeast, a fairly bitter finish and well hopped (according to the recipe). I just want to get my water right before going any further and wasting grains.

Just use RO water and use the spreadsheet and you're done. Why do you care so mich about understanding the chemistry that much? There is a ridiculous amount of chemistry going on from start to finish. However, we just take most of it for granted.

 

[ajdelange]

Just use RO water and use the spreadsheet and you're done.

The point of the Primer is that you don't need a spreadsheet. Just add a half tsp of CaCl2 and use 3% sauermalz and your done!

 

[urg8rb8]

The point of the Primer is that you don't need a spreadsheet. Just add a half tsp of CaCl2 and use 3% sauermalz and your done!

I agree that the primer is AWESOME to get you very close to target pH. The spreadsheets are good for dialing it in.

 

[HTH1975]

Thanks for the responses and the help - much appreciated.

I know lots of people use RO water then build up the water to suit. I'm not sure how available RO water is in the US, but in the UK I've no idea where to get such water. We do have access to fairly cheap spring (bottled) water, and that may be a better way to go.

My main motivation was to try and get some basic understanding of water treatments so I can use my own tap water to the best effect.

 

[urg8rb8]

Thanks for the responses and the help - much appreciated.

I know lots of people use RO water then build up the water to suit. I'm not sure how available RO water is in the US, but in the UK I've no idea where to get such water. We do have access to fairly cheap spring (bottled) water, and that may be a better way to go.

My main motivation was to try and get some basic understanding of water treatments so I can use my own tap water to the best effect.

Supermarkets here in the US have RO water available. Many people even have RO filtration systems at home.

I would be careful with spring water because you don't know what it's chemistry could be. Might be able to call the bottling company and ask for a report.

 

[HTH1975]

Here in the UK, bottled spring water has a list of the mineral content. This is the supermarket water I used in my first brew... View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1451759339.840504.jpg

 

[Hanglow]

Here in the UK, bottled spring water has a list of the mineral content. This is the supermarket water I used in my first brew... View attachment 327082

You can use Tesco Ashbeck water, or I think ASDA smartprice might be fine too. Some mineral water is very err, minerally. Or aquarium shops usually sell RO water

If you want to get your own water analysed in the uk then contact Phoenix Analytical http://www.phoenix-analytical.co.uk/ . I think it's about £25 a test maybe

unfortunately many city supplies in England can vary a lot over time, so if you want then you can get cheap aquarium testing kits for alkalinity and calcium and test your water before every brew. I think there are guides on the Jims Beer Kit forum for that.

 

[brevity]

Can someone help me understand the sulfate and chloride content of my brewing water?
I am following the advice in here for brewing an IPA and adding 1 TSP of calcium chloride and 1 TSP gypsum to every 5 gallons of pure RO water. I will have roughly 5 gallons of mash water and 5 gallons of sparge water and will be treating each with the calcium chloride and gypsum.

When I plug these numbers and volumes into the Bru'n water spreadsheet (using the RO water profile and 100% dilution percentage) it gives me a count of 148.5 ppm sulfate and 131.5 chloride in orange/red highlighted cells. Those seem absurdly high, don't they?
Even if I skip the gypsum it still leaves my chloride level too high. Am I not using the spreadsheet correctly?

 

[mabrungard]

Can someone help me understand the sulfate and chloride content of my brewing water?
I am following the advice in here for brewing an IPA and adding 1 TSP of calcium chloride and 1 TSP gypsum to every 5 gallons of pure RO water. I will have roughly 5 gallons of mash water and 5 gallons of sparge water and will be treating each with the calcium chloride and gypsum.

When I plug these numbers and volumes into the Bru'n water spreadsheet (using the RO water profile and 100% dilution percentage) it gives me a count of 148.5 ppm sulfate and 131.5 chloride in orange/red highlighted cells. Those seem absurdly high, don't they?
Even if I skip the gypsum it still leaves my chloride level too high. Am I not using the spreadsheet correctly?

How are you getting those numbers? Bru'n Water does not use teaspoons. How did you convert teaspoon values to mass values? I'd have to say that you aren't using the sheet correctly.

 

[urg8rb8]

How are you getting those numbers? Bru'n Water does not use teaspoons. How did you convert teaspoon values to mass values? I'd have to say that you aren't using the sheet correctly.

I use this:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3...h-ph/using-salts-for-brewing-water-adjustment

 

[brevity]

How are you getting those numbers? Bru'n Water does not use teaspoons. How did you convert teaspoon values to mass values? I'd have to say that you aren't using the sheet correctly.

I used an online conversion calculator to find that 1 TSP = 5 grams. But that is my problem isn't it? We need grams by weight and not volume when measuring brewing salts? I was entering "1.00" under the Addition (gram/gal). Meaning 1 gram per gallon or 5 grams per 5 gallons or 1 TSP per 5 gallons.

After searching I came across a table on this page that gives me the actual numbers. After plugging those figures in to Bru'n Water I get 119 sulfate ppm and 90 chloride ppm. Is that closer the level that it should be?

edit: just noticed urg8rb8 posted the same link above this post

 

[mabrungard]

After plugging those figures in to Bru'n Water I get 119 sulfate ppm and 90 chloride ppm. Is that closer the level that it should be?

Hmm? I guess you are right. Those additions do each produce about 50 ppm Ca in the water. Of course, they also add the sulfate and chloride content as noted.

I hadn't thought through AJ's recommendations prior, but that is significant chloride and sulfate content. I know that AJ prefers a much lower chloride content in the beers he brews. The Primer's advice to add a tsp of each for British styles seems appropriate for those typically minerally styles. The advice to double the additions for minerally beers will certainly produce minerally flavor.

I guess my recommendation for non-minerally and non-British ale styles would be to add only a 1/2 tsp of each salt and you will still have about 50 ppm Ca. For lagers, you are probably better off with only a 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride in 5 gal.

Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[ajdelange]

I guess my recommendation for non-minerally and non-British ale styles would be to add only a 1/2 tsp of each salt and you will still have about 50 ppm Ca. For lagers, you are probably better off with only a 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride in 5 gal.

That would be my recommendation too and if I could edit the original post I would.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

That would be my recommendation too and if I could edit the original post I would.

As I've followed this thread over the years, with updates, revisions, additional suggestions, etc., I've often wished that we could have "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer Mark II". I really like the KISS method of the Primer, and would love to see it updated.

 

[jbb3]

Dumb questions...

I see everyone use 5 gal as a baseline for water additions, but we all know that we use 8-9 gal for a 5 gal batch of beer.

1. Do you use the final finished beer volume to calculate/adjust water additions OR do you use the total water volume needed to calculate water additions?
2. Do you treat the total volume of water to be used (8-9 gal) prior to mashing OR do you just treat the strike water (3-4 gal) with those additions?

 

[gromitdj]

Dumb questions...

I see everyone use 5 gal as a baseline for water additions, but we all know that we use 8-9 gal for a 5 gal batch of beer.

1. Do you use the final finished beer volume to calculate/adjust water additions OR do you use the total water volume needed to calculate water additions?
2. Do you treat the total volume of water to be used (8-9 gal) prior to mashing OR do you just treat the strike water (3-4 gal) with those additions?

I treat the whole volume of water (strike + sparge) to be used. For a 5 gallon batch, I prepare 10 gallons of water per the primer to keep the math simple. But you could multiply the salt additions by 1.6 if you only prepare 8 gallons.

 

[ajdelange]

It's intended to be a rate. A tsp per 5 gallons is easier to comprehend than 0.2 tsp per gallon or even 1 gram per gallon as the people who were originally intended to be the beneficiaries of the Primer were thought to all be beginners and not in possession of a gram scale.

 

[jbb3]

It's intended to be a rate. A tsp per 5 gallons is easier to comprehend than 0.2 tsp per gallon or even 1 gram per gallon as the people who were originally intended to be the beneficiaries of the Primer were thought to all be beginners and not in possession of a gram scale.

I do have a gram scale but; water building beginner me is...

Thanks for the info!

 

[2trout]

Do I understand the Primer, and post #30 correctly? See below....

Hefeweizen: Baseline
Baseline:
Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:
Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles).
Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

We are doing this - 1/2tsp Calcium Chloride and 3% sauermalz to each 5 gallons water.

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter):.
Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Skip the sauermalz.

Do this - 1 tsp Calcium Chloride no sauermalz to each 5 gallons water.

Light Ale: For British beers:
Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

Do this - 1 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1 tsp gypsum to each 5 gallons water. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale):
Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

Do this - 2 tsp Calcium Chloride and 2 tsp Gypsum to each 5 gallons water. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

 

[chlehb]

So today I decided it was time to get into water chemistry. After reading various articles, blog posts and this forum post on the topic, I know more but am just as confused as before.

I understand the best way would be to use RO water, but I don't see that happening as I don't want to head to the supermarket and lug 15L of water up to my apartment every time I want to brew. So I would like to try balancing out my water profile. I looked up my city's water profile and got these numbers:

Calcium:    84 mg/L
Magnesium:  12 mg/L
Natrium:    5 mg/L
Chloride:   8 mg/L
Sulfate:    30 mg/L
Alkalinity: 190 CaCO3 (can this be correct?)
pH:         7.5

At my LHBS I can get the following:
- pH strips (5,1-7,2)
- Sauermalz
- Magnesium sulfate
- Lactic acid
- Calcium chloride
- Phosphoric acid

This part is pretty straightforward if I had RO water:

* Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.
* For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles): Add calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%
* For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz
* For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride
* For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

But since I don't, here are my questions:
* My LHBS doesn't have Gypsum or doesn't list it as such. From my understanding it's Calcium sulfate? Could I replace it with one of the things I listed above?
* Going from my water profile, how do I adjust the guidelines above?

Thanks for any help

 

[MagicMatt]

I understand the best way would be to use RO water, but I don't see that happening as I don't want to head to the supermarket and lug 15L of water up to my apartment every time I want to brew.

That's only like 4 gallons - you could do that in one trip (2 per hand).

So I would like to try balancing out my water profile. I looked up my city's water profile and got these numbers:

Calcium:    84 mg/L
Magnesium:  12 mg/L
Natrium:    5 mg/L
Chloride:   8 mg/L
Sulfate:    30 mg/L
Alkalinity: 190 CaCO3 (can this be correct?)
pH:         7.5

With an alkalinity that high, your water is best geared toward darker beers like stouts and porters. If you want to use it for lighter beers, your best advice is to follow the primer. It details how to dilute your tap water until you're below the appropriate threshold (35 ppm CaCO3). For your water, this means a dilution ratio of 1:6 (tap to distilled or R/O). This will be the only way that you'll be able to use this primer with your water.

If you're not willing to dilute, you can use acid to help control your mash pH for lighter beers, but be careful as too much acid can impart unwanted flavors.

But since I don't, here are my questions:
* My LHBS doesn't have Gypsum or doesn't list it as such. From my understanding it's Calcium sulfate? Could I replace it with one of the things I listed above?

Yes gypsum = calcium sulfate. No, there's nothing you can just replace it with and get the same effect. There are other salts with sulfates and other salts with calcium, but nothing directly replaceable that I'm aware of.

* Going from my water profile, how do I adjust the guidelines above?

Using your water as is with no dilution, you do not use the guidelines above at all. The primer is geared towards very soft water, to the point of almost no mineral content.

 

[fun4stuff]

1) So I add acidulated malt to the grains and the salt/mineral additions to the water before the mash?
2) When do I check the pH? A few mins into the mash?
3) What does 2% acidualated malt mean? I add 2% of the total grain bill's weight in acidulated malt?
4) If my pH is too high after I check it, what is the best way to lower it (phosphoric acid or more acidulated malt)? How do I raise it if needed- baking soda?
5) Also- I do BIAB with full volume boil and no sparge. Do I add minerals and acid malt based on my expected final volume of 5.5 gallons? Or is it acid based on mash volume and minerals based on final volume (boiling off water will concentrate them in final post boil wort).


Thanks!

 

[mabrungard]

I find that it is important to allow the mashing chemistry to react for at least 10 minutes based on my observations. In addition, I've found that mashing pH does vary during the mash. I've shared with AJ, the fact that mashing pH tends to self-correct to a neutral mashing pH of about 5.4 when the initial mashing pH is much higher or lower than that value. I don't know the reason for that variation, but I do know that it is a real and consistent response. For that reason, I caution against premature pH adjustment when an initial measurement is a few tenths higher or lower than intended. Assuming that your target was around 5.4, the initial deviation will likely close in on that value. If it doesn't end up close enough to your goal in the kettle wort, then it is appropriate to adjust pH there.

 

[ajdelange]

In most cases the brewer will have added acid to the water or mash in order to reduce the target pH to 5.4. This acid is either in the water itself of on the surface of sauermalz where it it readily available to the mash water. At strike, thus, one has a lot of excess acid in the liquid which acid will eventually reach and react with the bases in the malt. The penetration takes some time and the reaction takes some time. It is little surprise, therefore, that an initial pH reading finds the liquid in the mash tun to have excess protons. Mash pH is going to rise after being, by some of my observations, startlingly low initially.

Similar remarks apply where the brewer has found it necessary to add alkali to his water in order to neutralize the acids in high kilned malts. There the initial pH reading is high and creeps down as the alkali reaches the malt acids.

Where the brewer relies solely on the calcium phytin reaction initial pH will be high and will lower as apatite precipitates releasing protons.

 

[ncsuwerewolf]

Dont be afraid to source some of your water additions away from your LHBS. I buy MgSO4 (epsom salts) at the drug store. One gable top will last me a lifetime for under 2.00. Calcium sulfate ( gypsum) at the chinese grocery store 1 pound for about 2.00. They wont call it gypsum tho. You have to tell them you want to make homemade tofu and they should take you to it. Baking soda at the super market. Calcium chloride and lactic acid 88 i source from amazon. The only thing i add to my tap water i buy from my LHBS is campden for chloramine. And thats only because i already had it before i was water addition savy.

 

[jimyson]

I followed this primer and came about at 5.44 on an RIS. For the next time I brew it, would you leave it, add more calcium chloride, or add some acidulated?


May be a little early as I should really taste it before making changes as its in the safe zone but thinking closer to 5.3 would be better. Thoughts?

**After thought edit. I put 5.88 grams for 11.93 gallons of water. That's actually low compared to the primer. I should have put 8.11 in and that would have lowered it some. Must have changed something that I didn't realize in my recipe.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

I feel that unless the pH is way off (maybe ~0.5 or more) that it isn't useful to try adjusting on the fly. If the pH is allowing enzymatic activity then by the time you get it adjusted to your perfect number most of the conversion has taken place. Better to document the parameters and learn for the next brew.

Perhaps the more experienced will correct me.

 

[MagicMatt]

I followed this primer and came about at 5.44 on an RIS. For the next time I brew it, would you leave it, add more calcium chloride, or add some acidulated?


May be a little early as I should really taste it before making changes as its in the safe zone but thinking closer to 5.3 would be better. Thoughts?

**After thought edit. I put 5.88 grams for 11.93 gallons of water. That's actually low compared to the primer. I should have put 8.11 in and that would have lowered it some. Must have changed something that I didn't realize in my recipe.

The pH range we want the mash to be is between 5.2 - 5.4, but these are at mash temps. When we measure the pH of a sample from the mash, it should be near room temp, and as such it's my understanding that the range we are actually aiming for when measuring at room temp is 5.4-5.6.

For darker beers you should be targeting the upper end of this range. Not that a 5.4 stout wouldn't be fine, but some research has shown that lighter beers seem to come out better toward the lower end, while darker beers do so towards the higher end.

So to answer your question, you wouldn't wan't to add anything next time. In fact, I'd even withhold some of your CaCl from the mash and just add it during the boil. This should help the pH jump up a little.

 

[jimyson]

Interesting. So what the actual drift in pH per degree? Seems like somewhere around .1 for every 40F.

I measured this a little early at 74F.

My last batch was an IPA at 5.28 at 72. So that was too low too.

 

[chlehb]

If you're not willing to dilute, you can use acid to help control your mash pH for lighter beers, but be careful as too much acid can impart unwanted flavors.

Yes gypsum = calcium sulfate. No, there's nothing you can just replace it with and get the same effect. There are other salts with sulfates and other salts with calcium, but nothing directly replaceable that I'm aware of.

Thanks for your response. I think I'll start by actually measuring the pH of my next mash and then take it from there step by step. It seems just as easy to do something wrong than something right on this subject :|

 

[jbb3]

Brewing a pecan porter. 15 lbs grain bill with 5 gal RO strike water. Forgot to treat my RO strike water with calcium chloride prior to dough in. Remembered right as i got the grain stirred in to the MT so I treated the mash with 1 tsp and re-stirred for several minutes (needed to drop the mash a few degrees anyway). Any harm in this makeshift method?

 

[Hayden512]

Which primer would you use for an IPA?

I'm using 100% RO and put the mineral profile into brun water and I'm getting a mash PH of 4.8 and I feel like my chloride is way too high.

Recipe as follows. 4.5 gallons strike water and 3.75 gallons sparge water. 5 gallon batch

9 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 68.7 %
3 lbs Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 2 21.1 %
1 lbs Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.0 %
4.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.8 %
3.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.3 %

 

[geoffey]

Maybe it's just me, but this thread seems to be being treated as the "please give me advance help and advice on my water profile" thread instead of the simple water primer thread it was intended to be. If you're brewing with RO water and want treatment advice this is I think the wrong place to be asking for it. The first couple dozen posts on this thread give beginner to intermediate Brewers a good/safe/easy place to start. Read through that thoroughly and if it doesn't make sense repeat until it does.

Sorry if that comes across harsh.

 

[zipr]

Thanks for this guide! I'm going to put it to use next time I brew.

General question:
I found several water profiles for my city. Since I don't have a lot of information to go on about where and when they were taken, should I get an average score and work from that?

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Alkalinity pH
27 8 15 39 6 65 (CaCO3) 8

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Alkalinity pH
27 8 15 39 6 65 (CaCO3) 8

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Alkalinity pH
28 8 21 48 12 59 (HCO3) 8

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Alkalinity pH
23 8 18 45 6 44 (CaCO3) 7.7

Average of the four profiles:
Ca+2: 26.25
Mg+2: 8
Na+: 17.25
Cl-: 42.75
SO4-2: 7.5
Alkalinity: 58 (CaCO3)
pH: 7.925

 

[gspot]

That's what I had to do. My city's water is drawn from several wells and mixed together, and while I could find reports for each wellhead, the analysis for each was quite distinct from the others. Over the course of the year, the water at the tap would vary depending on the proportion of water in the mix from each well. So I just used an average. Eventually, I started using RO water to get around that issue.

 

[zipr]

By my calculations with an average of the scores, I'd need to use 60% RO to get everything down to the suggested levels. Perhaps it may just be easier to add what's need to 100% RO water. I brew smaller batches (2.5 gallon), so it's not a lot of water to deal with.

 

[gspot]

Up to you, but if I were doing 2.5 gal batches, it'd be a no-brainer for me. Anything larger and I'd buy an RO unit (which I did) because I don't want to haul that much water around.