A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[h22lude]

Sulfate does not accentuate hops. It drys the beer's finish which can allow hopping and bittering to be more prominent in the flavor. If neither of those elements are really present in the recipe, the sulfate won't add them. Some sulfate in beers is helpful in clearing the palate and making the beer more drinkable.

The definition of accentuating is to make more prominent so we are saying the same thing. You said sulfate drys out the beer which makes the hop flavor more prominent. Wouldn't that be the same as sulfate accentuates the hop flavor?

I said sulfate aids in the accentuation of hops meaning adding sulfate to a hopped beer would make the hop flavor more prominent (by drying out the beer). For sulfate to be able to aid in the accentuation of hops, hops already need to be in the beer. If hops aren't in the beer, there is nothing for sulfate to aid. Maybe my wording should have been clearer.

I probably should have said, adding gypsum (sulfate) to a hopped beer will help bring out the hop flavor.

 

[SnowRaven]

Using calcium chloride and no gypsum would be great.

Any recommendation on the Atomic Amber (Home Brew All Stars Recipe)
Northwestern Style Amber ~6.7% 44 IBU ?

Water is 100% RO DI - 8 ppm TDS

has 4 oz of late hops in it (bittered with Magnum 21 g) 15.8 lbs of grain

Go balanced .5 Gypsum .5 CaCl
or go
1 tsp CaCl ?

any Epsom?



Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
13.5 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 85.2%
10 oz American - Caramel / Crystal 40L 34 40 3.9%
5 oz American - Caramel / Crystal 90L 33 90 2%
10 oz American - Victory 34 28 3.9%
4.25 oz United Kingdom - Chocolate 34 425 1.7%
5 oz German - CaraMunich I 34 39 2%
3.25 oz German - Acidulated Malt 27 3.4 1.3%
15.84 lb Total
Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
21 g Magnum Pellet 15 Boil 60 min 28.69
1 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 10 min 6.55
1 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Boil 10 min 9.36
1 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 0 min
1 oz Centennial Pellet 10 Boil 0 min

 

[Dcpcooks]

Ok! I went all in. Got an RO system from BuckeyeHydro. Based on the TDS meter my solids are at 1 down from 158. (Chicago area water close to the lake)
Brewing a RIS tomorrow. Based on the recco I'm adding 6g calcium CaCl for 30 gallons of water. Treating everything the same. I'll update as soon as I get it finished and 4-6 months (barrel aged).

Thanks to yooper and AJ for making this mind bender of a chemical nightmare easy for a poor old chef who failed Chem II.

 

[MagicMatt]

Based on the recco I'm adding 6g calcium CaCl for 30 gallons of water.

Just a heads up, but I believe you mean "6 tsp", not "6g". The Primer states 1 tsp / 5 gal. For 30 gallons, this would equal about 20g CaCl (assuming roughly 3.5g/tsp).

 

[jimyson]

And I think the the recommendation is half of the stated primer so it's 10.2g. That's at 3.4g/tsp. Confusing enough?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Just a heads up, but I believe you mean "6 tsp", not "6g". The Primer states 1 tsp / 5 gal. For 30 gallons, this would equal about 20g CaCl (assuming roughly 3.5g/tsp).

Yes tsp not g's. Typo. Thank you

 

[Jay-Brew]

I acknowledge this is probably a completely stupid question but my home brewer paranoia is kicking in. I use RO water I buy from a water store in sealed 5 gallons container. Fill your own jugs kind of place. For various reasons I haven't been able to brew when I expected to so by the time I use this water it will be about a month old since I got it. So the stupid question is, does it go stale, "bad"... after sitting around? If it somehow isn't as good as fresh water I'd rather just buy more when I will finally end up brewing. Thanks!

 

[ajdelange]

Why did the British Navy carry small beer on board its vessels?

Yes, water can go bad. Life is amazingly tennacious. Give it a carbon source (CO2 in the air), energy (heat) and a seed (spore) and it will develop in even pure water. Thus water stored in barrels on board ship went bad and had to be replaced by beer (one of the few good things about being in the British Navy from what I gather). At the same time, I have an RO system at home with a pressure tank and atmospheric tank. I am away 5 - 6 mos every summer and when I return in the fall the water in the pressure tank is fine. But I don't trust the water exposed to the air in the atmospheric tank and drain that when I go away.

I'd say that water that tastes and smells OK and doesn't have slimy things growing in it is fine for use in brewing.

 

[Jay-Brew]

Why did the British Navy carry small beer on board its vessels?

Yes, water can go bad. Life is amazingly tennacious. Give it a carbon source (CO2 in the air), energy (heat) and a seed (spore) and it will develop in even pure water. Thus water stored in barrels on board ship went bad and had to be replaced by beer (one of the few good things about being in the British Navy from what I gather). At the same time, I have an RO system at home with a pressure tank and atmospheric tank. I am away 5 - 6 mos every summer and when I return in the fall the water in the pressure tank is fine. But I don't trust the water exposed to the air in the atmospheric tank and drain that when I go away.

I'd say that water that tastes and smells OK and doesn't have slimy things growing in it is fine for use in brewing.

Thanks I appreciate it!

 

[cannman]

I acknowledge this is probably a completely stupid question but my home brewer paranoia is kicking in. I use RO water I buy from a water store in sealed 5 gallons container. Fill your own jugs kind of place. For various reasons I haven't been able to brew when I expected to so by the time I use this water it will be about a month old since I got it. So the stupid question is, does it go stale, "bad"... after sitting around? If it somehow isn't as good as fresh water I'd rather just buy more when I will finally end up brewing. Thanks!

I think there are 3 things that could happen: algae/mold/bacteria growth: Might impart flavor, not that big a deal preboil.
Plastic/BPA over time can impart the water for a plastic flavor.
Depending on the seal, the pH could change as some of the water forms carbonic acid from the atmosphere.

All in all: keep a clean bottle before filling, store in a cool dark place, and don't worry about it

 

[Jay-Brew]

I think there are 3 things that could happen: algae/mold/bacteria growth: Might impart flavor, not that big a deal preboil.
Plastic/BPA over time can impart the water for a plastic flavor.
Depending on the seal, the pH could change as some of the water forms carbonic acid from the atmosphere.

All in all: keep a clean bottle before filling, store in a cool dark place, and don't worry about it

Thanks for the input!

 

[rtracer]

This thread seems to have gone way past the initial basic primer, but I am excited to taste my first brew that I followed the primer. Found a place in town that only sells RO water. 9.5 gallons RO water(BAIB) added 2 tsp Calc Chlor and 2 tsp gypsum with 4 oz of Acid malt added to my grain bill. Excited to see how it comes out.
All my previous brews were with Charcoal filtered tap water. All hoppy APA's and IPA which have been "good", but not the hoppy, aromatic, juicy beers I am striving for.

 

[urg8rb8]

This thread seems to have gone way past the initial basic primer, but I am excited to taste my first brew that I followed the primer. Found a place in town that only sells RO water. 9.5 gallons RO water(BAIB) added 2 tsp Calc Chlor and 2 tsp gypsum with 4 oz of Acid malt added to my grain bill. Excited to see how it comes out.
All my previous brews were with Charcoal filtered tap water. All hoppy APA's and IPA which have been "good", but not the hoppy, aromatic, juicy beers I am striving for.

Let us know how it tastes!

 

[r8rphan]

Is the information in the OP still relevant?

It made everything sound so simple...
Buy an RO filter, add x amount of this and x amount of that to the water (at least I thought it was to the water?) and brew...

But I'm hearing that perhaps it's BS?
If so, should this thread still be pinned to the top?

Was hoping to brew last weekend, but couldn't get answers..

Was hoping to brew next weekend and it sounds like I'm not gonna get answers before then either.. or any time soon....

In fact, it sounds like gotta go to college and get a degree first....

Was afraid of that...

 

[andrewmaixner]

Is the information in the OP still relevant?
It made everything sound so simple...
Buy an RO filter, add x amount of this and x amount of that to the water (at least I thought it was to the water?) and brew...
But I'm hearing that perhaps it's BS?
If so, should this thread still be pinned to the top?
Was hoping to brew last weekend, but couldn't get answers..
Was hoping to brew next weekend and it sounds like I'm not gonna get answers before then either.. or any time soon....
In fact, it sounds like gotta go to college and get a degree first....
Was afraid of that...

You can go as simple as 100% RO and nothing else, and will still get good beer. Optimal additions just helps move it from good to great.
(Note that "good beer" means "better than 95% of what is sold at the store")

I've personally found that the following works well, in general, for most ales. This is for 14gal water (10 gal batch).
10.00 g Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate)
6.00 g Calcium Chloride
5g (or up to 20g for more bitter beers, IPAs) Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)

You can also add more Sulfates later if a bitter beer doesn't seem bitter enough. This is just a very basic cheat-sheet type template for mineral addition.
I have found that the EZWater excel spreadsheet makes it pretty easy for me.

Note that you can get a good .01g scale on amazon for like $10

 

[tjosborne]

Is the information in the OP still relevant?



It made everything sound so simple...

Buy an RO filter, add x amount of this and x amount of that to the water (at least I thought it was to the water?) and brew...



But I'm hearing that perhaps it's BS?

If so, should this thread still be pinned to the top?



Was hoping to brew last weekend, but couldn't get answers..



Was hoping to brew next weekend and it sounds like I'm not gonna get answers before then either.. or any time soon....



In fact, it sounds like gotta go to college and get a degree first....



Was afraid of that...

Just use the primer for now, that's all I'm doing till I streamline the rest of my process. Just check your PH, made a world of difference for me and worry about the extreme calculations later.

 

[ajdelange]

Is the information in the OP still relevant?

Lot's of people have made good beer with it. Why would it not be relevant?

It made everything sound so simple...
Buy an RO filter, add x amount of this and x amount of that to the water (at least I thought it was to the water?) and brew...

That's how it works

But I'm hearing that perhaps it's BS?
If so, should this thread still be pinned to the top?

"Perhaps" is not a very good basis for unpinning something that is well proven.

Was hoping to brew last weekend, but couldn't get answers..

That's because you haven't been looking very hard.

Was hoping to brew next weekend and it sounds like I'm not gonna get answers before then either.. or any time soon....

The answer is repeated over and over in this thread. But it is buried in a lot of noise. However it is made quite plain from the beginning that the recommendations are to be a starting point and that one must experiment and adjust from the starting point as long as such adjustments represent to the brewer or his customers an improvement. At the time the Primer was written people liked a lot of minerals in their beer. I never did but 'went with the flow' when I wrote the Primer. Since then (and it's been a while) people have come to appreciate that lower levels make better beer and so we now generally recommend starting with half the amount of salts listed in the original Primer. I have been remiss in that I have promised to revise the Primer to these lower levels but have not, as yet, done so.

 

[h22lude]

Is the information in the OP still relevant?

It made everything sound so simple...
Buy an RO filter, add x amount of this and x amount of that to the water (at least I thought it was to the water?) and brew...

But I'm hearing that perhaps it's BS?
If so, should this thread still be pinned to the top?

Was hoping to brew last weekend, but couldn't get answers..

Was hoping to brew next weekend and it sounds like I'm not gonna get answers before then either.. or any time soon....

In fact, it sounds like gotta go to college and get a degree first....

Was afraid of that...

Just as we all said in the thread you started yesterday, it is that easy. Use RO water and add what the primer says based on the gallons you use. If you use 7.5 total gallons, use 1.5 times what the primer says (as the primer is per 5 gallons).

I'm not sure where you read it was BS but I'm guessing by now you know that is just not true.

You don't need a college degree, you just need to research. A lot of the questions you asked are all over this site (i.e. do you add the minerals to the water before or after the grains). I recently just started messing around with my water. I bought the book titled Water and spent hours and hours on here looking things up. If I had a question I would ask it in Google. If you don't know, the best way to search this site using Google is "site:homebrewtalk.com xxxxxx". The xxxxxx is your question. This will bring up search results just for HBT. I'm in no way an expert (or even close) but I know enough to figure out what additions I need and a profile close to the beer I'm brewing but it took a lot of researching to get to where I am now.

 

[r8rphan]

Lot's of people have made good beer with it. Why would it not be relevant?

That's how it works

"Perhaps" is not a very good basis for unpinning something that is well proven.

That's because you haven't been looking very hard.

The answer is repeated over and over in this thread. But it is buried in a lot of noise. However it is made quite plain from the beginning that the recommendations are to be a starting point and that one must experiment and adjust from the starting point as long as such adjustments represent to the brewer or his customers an improvement. At the time the Primer was written people liked a lot of minerals in their beer. I never did but 'went with the flow' when I wrote the Primer. Since then (and it's been a while) people have come to appreciate that lower levels make better beer and so we now generally recommend starting with half the amount of salts listed in the original Primer. I have been remiss in that I have promised to revise the Primer to these lower levels but have not, as yet, done so.

I was getting 'confusing' answers via research... When I finally got some to respond to my specific questions, many were saying I needed to get a program, expensive PH meter etc... which, combined with a terrible day, made me think that things were not a simple as I had been led to believe...


You have since re-encouraged me..

 

[r8rphan]

I'm not sure where you read it was BS but I'm guessing by now you know that is just not true.

You don't need a college degree, you just need to research. A lot of the questions you asked are all over this site (i.e. do you add the minerals to the water before or after the grains). I recently just started messing around with my water. I bought the book titled Water and spent hours and hours on here looking things up. If I had a question I would ask it in Google. If you don't know, the best way to search this site using Google is "site:homebrewtalk.com xxxxxx". The xxxxxx is your question. This will bring up search results just for HBT. I'm in no way an expert (or even close) but I know enough to figure out what additions I need and a profile close to the beer I'm brewing but it took a lot of researching to get to where I am now.

My research was yielding answers that was making things more complex than needed to be....

I bought that same book, but only received it a couple days ago.. I wanted to get a couple of brews going... Tired of waiting and frustrated at all the delays... My 'target date' was no later than to have a finished/carbonated beer by the 11th of July.... My target budget was $750 (with a 'cushion of $250).. It's now the 20th of Sept, and I stopped counting the dollars at $1600... :smack:

I will read the book, as that's why I bought it... I read technical books while on the crapper, so they take a while..

Yesterday was a very rough day.. and to cap it off, after I gave up and took a shower and got ready to hit the sack, I found a nice pile of dog crap in the master bedroom... Something that would normally have made me upset, but I found it so perfectly ironic as a capper for the day, that I busted up and went to bed in a much better mood...

And yes, now I know it is not BS..... Thankfully, because I was so happy that there was a simpler way than water reports and calculations and all that.. and was getting really bummed when I thought that I was gonna have to use a program, do measurements, buy an expensive PH meter, calibrate that constantly, etc...

 

[ajdelange]

As is the case with so many things brewing water chemistry is, once you understand it, quite simple. The problem is getting to the point where you understand it and that can be a daunting task. Full understanding seems to elude most even after years of experience. I believe this is in large measure because people don't think about the problem but rather use today's approach to solution: "Isn't there an Ap for that?". Full understanding isn't going to come unless you have the ability to do hundreds of tedious calculations easily enough that you are willing to undertake them but being able to do them isn't sufficient. You have to study what the results are trying to teach you.

In preparing brewing water there are two things which must be attended to. The first is adjusting the acid base balance such that the mash pH is in the proper range. The other is controlling the level of the so-called 'stylistic' ions such that the beer tastes right. After fiddling with hundreds of malt and water combinations I came to realize that a few grams of calcium chloride, a few grams of calcium sulfate and a few percent (w/w) sauermalz in RO water gave a pretty good beer. In nature things respond to stimuli logarithmically (your ears, your eyes, why not your taste buds) so that it is only when we get to doublings of halvings of the strengths of stimuli that we expect easily detectable changes in the way we taste the beer. Thus if you have some profile and over do the sulfate by 20% or the chloride by 40% that just isn't going to make that much of a difference when all is said and done. This allows us to publish something like the Primer and have people get pretty good beer from it. They are also free to deviate quite a bit from it. The whole idea behind publishing it is that it is what the experts do. They don't ponder over elaborate spreadsheets, tables of profiles and water reports. They know from experience what their malt will do in their water (given that so many peoples' water is now RO just simplifies things even more). While fine tuning of the brewing process is always a good idea the log response of nature means that you have quite a bit of leeway with respect to the Primer's recommendations. As noted, people now seem to like less mineral in their beer hence the broad recommendation to use half what the Primer calls for. But you can use the full amounts and not be too far off.

 

[r8rphan]

@ajdelange

Just to be clear, the gypsum can be added at 'any' point in the process, right? Including the finished, carbonated beer?

So that all that is really 'required' for the mash, is the calcium chloride addition and the sauermalz?

 

[ajdelange]

The effects of sulfate on hops perception are widely believed to be associated with the ions action on the drinkers palate. If that were all that were involved then yes, the sulfate could go in at any point. But sulfate is involved in other reactions with components of the mash, the boil and with the yeast. Therefore a beer with sulfate added to the finished beer will not be the same as a beer made with the same amount of sulfate added earlier in the process. Thus the sulfate taste test is for general guidance only. It cannot be used to precisely determine how much sulfate to add or remove from the brewing water.

 

[mabrungard]

@ajdelange

Just to be clear, the gypsum can be added at 'any' point in the process, right? Including the finished, carbonated beer?

So that all that is really 'required' for the mash, is the calcium chloride addition and the sauermalz?

Not really. The gypsum does have an effect on mashing pH. So if the overall additions of minerals and acid or acid malt are insufficient to drop the pH enough, then you should either keep the gypsum in the mash or increase the acid/acid malt addition.

When you have the ability to assess or predict mashing pH, then you should be able account for adding gypsum at any point in the brewing process and still meet your pH goal.

 

[TastyAdventure]

So is RO water literally just pure H2O?
Does it not have any minerals or anything? I want to build up water for a German Pils

 

[mabrungard]

RO is not pure water. It has very minor ionic content in it. But you can typically assume that the content is near zero.

 

[TastyAdventure]

RO is not pure water. It has very minor ionic content in it. But you can typically assume that the content is near zero.

Cool, thanks. And what can I assume the pH is?

 

[ajdelange]

It doesn't matter with RO water any more than it does with most water. What counts is the alkalinity. RO water has very low alkalinity. As such its pH responds dramatically to the slightest addition of acid or base. The carbon dioxide in the air is often enough to drop its pH to the mid or low 6's.

 

[BrewerE]

Let me see if I have this right...

If I input my water report from my local utility into Bru'n Water and all the 'Finished Water Profile' values are green, I don't need to adjust anything?

Can it be that easy?

 

[h22lude]

Let me see if I have this right...

If I input my water report from my local utility into Bru'n Water and all the 'Finished Water Profile' values are green, I don't need to adjust anything?

Can it be that easy?

Input your water, input your grain bill then choose the profile you want to match. My spreadsheet doesn't actually turn green so I'm not sure. Once your profile lines up with what you want, then look at your mash pH.

 

[Zibe]

I was making great beer in Ohio but moved back to Texas a while back and I've brewed three pale ales that all sucked, no hop presence at all and were slow to clear. The water at the house is actually a privately owned well for the community. I asked the lady for a report but it came back with almost nothing I need for brewing. I know the water is extremely hard but that's about it. We have a water dispenser and refill 5 gallon bottles either at Walmart (primo water I think), or from the glacier machines, or water mill express. All of these mention Reverse Osmosis in the process. Will this work with the additions listed on the first post? Sorry if this has been asked somewhere else can't find it but any help is appreciated this place is a craft beer wasteland and now I can't seem to brew anything decent (stout came out ok).

 

[andrewmaixner]

In summary: yes, your store's "reverse osmosis" filtered water is effectively a blank slate: presume it has zero anything in it, and add what is needed.


P.S.: you can play around with adding sulfate to a "no hop presence" beer to accentuate the bitterness. Get a milligram scale and add 1/50th the amount you would put in a batch, to a splash of hot water in a glass. mix. fill with beer. mix. taste.

 

[ajdelange]

Good advice except use cold water. Magnesium sulfate, sodium sulfate, potassium sulfate are all very soluble and will dissolve in cold water with no difficulty. Calcium sulfate, the salt most likely to be used, is, OTOH, not that soluble but it does dissolve more readily in cold water than warm. Besides which you won't warm up the beer.

 

[Zibe]

Thanks for the advice I just put the beer on gas so I'll see how it shapes out it may be fine but just as a blonde instead of an APA I don't think I have any sulfates to test I think I only have campden tabs but definitely try to treat the water next time as per the first page it's been frustrating

 

[abbysdad2006]

Can someone please help me understand these names in water profile. I'm having a hard time understanding.
Thanks

CA

MG

Na

Cl

SO4

HCO

 

[andrewmaixner]

(note: correct capitalization is essential when using abbreviations for chemicals)

Ca: calcium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/calcium
Mg: magnesium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium
Na: sodium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sodium
Cl: chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride
SO4: sulfate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate
HCO3: bicarbonate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicarbonate

 

[abbysdad2006]

(note: correct capitalization is essential when using abbreviations for chemicals)

Ca: calcium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/calcium
Mg: magnesium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium
Na: sodium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sodium
Cl: chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride
SO4: sulfate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate
HCO3: bicarbonate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicarbonate

Thank you very much!

 

[abbysdad2006]

Ok, few more questions, Let say my water profile looks like this (this is not my water, I haven't got it back yet)

Ca: 64
Mg: 17
Na: 87
Cl: 96
SO4: 172
HCO: 144

How would I go about getting a PPM Sulfate Chloride Ratio of 200:100 in about let say 8 gallons of city water?

Thanks

 

[MagicMatt]

Ca - Calcium
Mg - Magnesium
Na - Sodium
Cl - Chloride
SO4 - Sulfate
HCO3 - Bicarbonate


Find more here: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

Edit: Oops, beaten to the punch!

 

[MagicMatt]

Ok, few more questions, Let say my water profile looks like this (this is not my water, I haven't got it back yet)

Ca: 64
Mg: 17
Na: 87
Cl: 96
SO4: 172
HCO: 144

How would I go about getting a PPM Sulfate Chloride Ratio of 200:100 in about let say 8 gallons of city water?

Thanks

You're not far off from a SO4/Cl of 2:1. A touch of sulfate is all you would need. But how much depends on the volume of water you're using.