425 bbls per year ?

[Weizenwerks]

Also buying extract syrup is much more expensive than buying grains. If he is looking for economy, that would be the way to go.

Extract ingredients are more expensive than all grain, but uses less equipment (less cost) and is faster production. Everything has a trade off.

Why would he even put BMC on tap??? It's his bar, he can make a kick ass pale ale instead and triple your sales. If you REALLY want a BMC beer (lighter than what most homebrewers would consider a pale ale or american light ale) those recipes exist too using corn or rice. I see no reason to ALLOW BMC to compete if it's his bar!!!

Exactly. You are making money brewing and selling your beer, not someone else's. If you absolutely must, I would have only one tap be a BMC beer; with that I would go Bud Light only.

Is it? After talking with some pro's around here I was under the impression that in-house draft sales don't do much for you. Keg distribution and especially bottling are where you make your money!?

No way. You will make more profit selling retail by the glass than wholesale in any vessel. You're looking at $90-125 per half barrel at wholesale and you can sell that same half barrel by the glass and get $350-500 in sales of your own beer. Beer is a volume industry and moreso with wholesale sales. How much more work and expense do you have to sell half barrels wholesale than I do selling retail by the glass?

Well, there are a lot of variables at work, but you've got to figure that selling beer at $4 a pint direct to the consumer is going to give you the biggest gross margins. The math may work differently depending on what you have for staffing and other costs, but selling their own beer in-house is the bread and butter of most brewpubs.

Yes it is and that's the whole point of retail sales. You eliminate the wholesaler and become the retailer. Consumer direct sales is always the most profitable.

What are you going to do when someone asks you about your 'homebrew' and you have to explain how much extract syrup you put in the recipe?

What is wrong with extract? If I brew an AG weizenbier and an extract weizenbier, taste test I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference. Why do I choose extract brewing? Faster production, less equipment means less cost, less cleaning, less time for setup and cleanup. Less equipment to clean and sanitize cuts water and sanitizer use. When the time is right and space and budget allows, I will go all grain.

 

[weirdboy]

That's good news. Our costs of ingredients will be much lower than expected ! Now what do you think bulk price will be on Amber liquid malt extract?

I honestly don't know. It is usually shipped bulk in 15 gallon HDPE containers that weigh around 200 pounds, but I'm not sure about the wholesale pricing for those.

 

[trigger]

As a pet project I've been looking around and crunching numbers myself in the dreams of a similar venture (opening a brewpub from an established restaurant). What I've come up with is that a 3 BBL used setup is the way to go, but I wasn't figuring for your throughput. I really think that you should consider doing some ridealongs at some working brewpubs if possible, just to see how it goes. In the volumes you're talking I really think that you'll be heavily invested enough in labor in cleaning/transfering/mixing/etc that the step to all grain won't make too much of a difference. The initial outlay will be a lot higher, but buying used is a good option, especially since you can probably find a system that has almost everything you'll need. You should price out some used systems and see where your break even point will fall in terms of production, and then see if that's worth the risk. Keep in mind, that you've figured in ingredients, but you haven't touched on water, power (gas or electric?), taxes and fees, cleaning chemicals (you'll be CIP with a rig this big, and it's not going to be economical to top everything off with PBW then starsan), and maintenance. All of these costs will be slightly higher with going all grain than extract, simply because there's an extra vessel or two to clean, heat, and fill. Just some more thoughts.

 

[ongreystreet]

I disagree. I from Fredericksburg Tx. Home of Texas' first "brew pub". Their beer is **** and the rest of what they serve is BMC. They're always packed and make a ton of money. And they brew with extract.

If you're looking at it from solely a money making perspective it can be done. If you're looking at it from a craft perspective... that's a totally different story.

Your definition of brew pub is a lot different then mine. I don't know what they do in Texas, put here on the East Coast, the brew pubs I've been to don't serve anything but their own, they certainly wouldn't serve BMC. Sounds like a gimmick, maybe that's just a regional thing.

 

[Yooper]

As to the extract/AG, I know some brewpubs do use extract, simply to not have to have a "brewer" and to avoid having to buy more equipment.

As a tourist, I wouldn't even ask if the beer was extract in a brewpub. Of course, I would assume it wasn't, but it wouldn't bother me if it was. I was in the Port Aransas Brewing Company on Friday, and it didn't even occur to me.

What people DO look for though are signs of "this is a brewpub", and the first place I looked at was the bar for the brite/serving tanks! They of course have a sign hanging on them, saying what each was. I think this would be important to do, if you could anyway swing it. People will drink out of those "bling" tanks, rather than a plain ole nondescript BMC looking keg.

 

[ongreystreet]

I am not knocking extract brewing on the whole, hell I only do extract brewing.

But let's read between the lines, or read the OP for that matter, he said extract brewing for a cheap start.

Couple of things wrong with that,

First, extract ain't cheaper then all-grain, we all know it's a fact. Of course you might spend more initially on equipment to do all grain, but you are planning on brewing 13k gallons a year, so your ingredients are going to be a much larger expense compared to equipment.

Second, why start cheap and at the same time plan to make 13k gallons a year? To me craft brew is start with quality and move on to larger quantities. The first thing you say in your post is how "" you are about your partner's commitment, maybe that's the first thing you should move past before getting to far ahead of yourself.


There is also a lot of discussion of costs of materials, such as fermenters and grain bills, but how about your costs for energy, water, pumps, refrigeration, ventilation, space, extra tanks, filters, and manpower? With all that water in pipes and tanks, just the cost to cut the floor and install drains everywhere is going to cost you (sounds extreme, but if you've been to a brewery/brew pub you know what I am talking about) Insurance also!

My suggestion is to talk to the brewpub people, not the homebrew people. Unless you'd be in direct competition with another brew pub or small brewery, I don't see why they wouldn't help you out as much as they can, probably a lot more then any of us can.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I am not knocking extract brewing on the whole, hell I only do extract brewing.

But let's read between the lines, or read the OP for that matter, he said extract brewing for a cheap start.

Couple of things wrong with that,

First, extract ain't cheaper then all-grain, we all know it's a fact. Of course you might spend more initially on equipment to do all grain, but you are planning on brewing 13k gallons a year, so your ingredients are going to be a much larger expense compared to equipment.

That's what he needs to figure out. Extract is cheaper equipment, more expensive ingredients, faster brewing cycle. AG is more expensive equipment, cheaper ingredients, slower brewing cycle.

Second, why start cheap and at the same time plan to make 13k gallons a year? To me craft brew is start with quality and move on to larger quantities. The first thing you say in your post is how "" you are about your partner's commitment, maybe that's the first thing you should move past before getting to far ahead of yourself.

Well said. If you set a goal and buy to obtain that you have no room for growth. Good point about the partner. Seems like going cheap is the main limiter and that's never going to go well. Difference between frugal and cheap.

There is also a lot of discussion of costs of materials, such as fermenters and grain bills, but how about your costs for energy, water, pumps, refrigeration, ventilation, space, extra tanks, filters, and manpower? With all that water in pipes and tanks, just the cost to cut the floor and install drains everywhere is going to cost you (sounds extreme, but if you've been to a brewery/brew pub you know what I am talking about) Insurance also!

Plus with putting a brewery into an existing restaurant he's looking at a whole different dynamic of business.

OP, get a read on this site. Specifically #7. These guys know what they are talking about. Head to their home page and read about brewery projects.

http://www.soundbrew.com/small.html

 

[itsme6582]

Are we done with the all grain debate yet?

That's awesome you were able to get kegs so cheaply. I was starting to wonder whether a bright tank would be cost competetive with 6 kegs at $200. Well, it definitely isn't when the $200 kegs are only $20.

I wouldn't filter. There's only one time that I've seen a glass of yeast poured down the street. They run 2 casks. Just make sure the bartender knows not to serve a beer if it obviously doesn't look right.

 

[pokerfreak2]

Your definition of brew pub is a lot different then mine. I don't know what they do in Texas, put here on the East Coast, the brew pubs I've been to don't serve anything but their own, they certainly wouldn't serve BMC. Sounds like a gimmick, maybe that's just a regional thing.

I have been asking myself why does he want to offer home made beer and go to all the trouble of licencing making space to brew and ferment and store etc. when he is already selling alot of beer anyway with much less trouble ? And the answer is it is a GIMMICK ! I see this whole place a big gimmick ! I guess that that is why the tourists flock to it.
That being said if the owner thinks that this will add to the "experience" of this tourist trap and wants me to set up an extract brewery on the cheap, I can't resist getting involved in brewing for a well established business. I have shown him copper clad systems that would really go with the whole western motif, but he wants to go with the plastic conicals and build a barnwood barrel facad around them and make the whole thing look like a big still to save alot of $. It should look cool.
He is willing to add an addition to the building just for brewing and go with a 7-10 bbl system if this gimmick is selling.

 

[lamarguy]

I was in the Port Aransas Brewing Company on Friday, and [extract brewed beer] didn't even occur to me.

Glad to hear you survived the tasting.

I've heard from numerous folks that 90% of their extract beers are infected 100% of the time.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I have shown him copper clad systems that would really go with the whole western motif, but he wants to go with the plastic conicals and build a barnwood barrel facad around them and make the whole thing look like a big still to save alot of $. It should look cool.

I think he's focused on the appeal of a brewery without looking at the overall impact and implication. Spending all that money to make it look "cool" could have been spent on efficiency, quality, and production of quality craft beer.

He is willing to add an addition to the building just for brewing and go with a 7-10 bbl system if this gimmick is selling.

Read the link I posted above. It never works out like that. Cry once, buy right from the start, and don't have that bigger expense later down the road. You can get a used 7-10 bbl system for the price of a new 3bbl system. Sorry to say, but your friend needs a serious reality check.

 

[broadbill]

I'm just going to leave this here:

Yesterday I read that Lagunitas Brewery is a 500 barrel brewery.

This guy wants to go 425 bbl and also run a restaurant.

 

[pokerfreak2]

Broadbill, You must be drunk ! We want to make 425 bbls per year not per minute. I went to Lagunitas Brewery website those guys are and huge brewery not a brew pub.

We are doin it so I'll post every now and then to keep you up on where we are at in this project.

 

[McMalty]

i don't see a way for him to brew this much beer to supply his operation unless he already has a well established brewing operation. brewing a lot of beer is a lot of work. sounds like he's making a lot of money, why not just stick to the commercial kegs and keep his brewing to a manageable level. sounds like he's gonna have a headache otherwise....

 

[broadbill]

yup, my mistake...I mis-read. Its 550,000 not 550bbl/year:

 

[Special Hops]

Big tourist trap of a major interstate with 100s of billboards.

South of the Border?

 

[pokerfreak2]

Big tourist trap of a major interstate with 100s of billboards.

South of the Border?

No, can't say right now...
We ended up purchasing a 100 gal steam kettle and flatplate chiller and 10-110 gal conicals , while jumping through the hoops of a BP licence. I have also been building our recipes in beer-smith.

 

[McMalty]

No, can't say right now...
We ended up purchasing a 100 gal steam kettle and flatplate chiller and 10-110 gal conicals , while jumping through the hoops of a BP licence. I have also been building our recipes in beer-smith.

no....."South of the Border" is a tourist attraction on I-95 on the border of NC and SC. They sell A TON of fireworks and bad food. Since ur in tx, ur prob thought he was saying in Mexico, right? He was joking.....if u drive down I-95, you'll see about 400 billboards for this place....you almost feel obligated to stop b/c you've become so pissed off at having seen all the billboards

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

I would think the 72oz steak comment would have given the location away, but maybe growing up in the same city just makes it obvious to me. As much as your place is a tourist attraction and I went maybe 4 times the whole 18 years I lived in the city I will stop by and have some homebrew (or brewpub brew in this case) when I come home to visit the folks. Best of luck and I hope it takes of well.

Oh and for everyone bashing his "craft" brews on tap, for that area those are actually pretty good selections. Brewing his own beer would be a huge addition to the beer scene in his city. Like I said best o luck and keep us updated. Next time I'm in town I'll stop by to say hey and see how it's going.

 

[hillhousesawdustco]

sounds like a pretty interesting idea to me, keep us posted!

 

[Csuho]

I am glad your not gonna use the 130k burner to boil 70 gallons. I just don't see that happening.

Ya earlybirdbrew I kinda know what place he is talkin about too with that steak comment way back early in the post.

 

[pokerfreak2]

I am glad to see some positive feedback. I am very excited to be involved in it. I would love to get good ideas from this forum instead of the YOU CAN"T DO IT BS.
We have also decided to brew an IPA called Rattlesnake IPA (this ones got a real bite) (`~`)

 

[pokerfreak2]

I would think the 72oz steak comment would have given the location away, but maybe growing up in the same city just makes it obvious to me. As much as your place is a tourist attraction and I went maybe 4 times the whole 18 years I lived in the city I will stop by and have some homebrew (or brewpub brew in this case) when I come home to visit the folks. Best of luck and I hope it takes of well.

Oh and for everyone bashing his "craft" brews on tap, for that area those are actually pretty good selections. Brewing his own beer would be a huge addition to the beer scene in his city. Like I said best o luck and keep us updated. Next time I'm in town I'll stop by to say hey and see how it's going.

Great ! I look forward to seeing you there ! We are shooting for June 1, but we"ll be hard pressed to get it ready by then.

 

[kaiser423]

Get the extra fermenters.

Brew beer that you're comfortable with. In fact, start brewing them like crazy now. Know them inside and out.

Don't go off the deep end with crazy beers - keep them within reach.

Extract is fine, plastic covered with wood slats sounds like a great idea for what I'm envisioning as the location. I think the brewery will take off in what I envision as the location. Don't forget about storage of all the materials you'll need. Draw up and floor plan and stick with it. You'll probalby need some serious shelving, etc.

Best of luck.

Oh, and don't forget about fermentation temp control. It might turn into a bear in the big tanks.

As for everyone bahsing him, I can't think of a single place that's a restaurant + brewery that doesn't at least have some form of BMC on tap or in bottles. Period. They're a money maker, and in demand.

You'll probably be brewing yourself crazy in no time flat. Be warned

 

[Weizenwerks]

There's a point where it's illegal to brew on premises that are in the process to be licensed.

 

[Weizenwerks]

As for everyone bahsing him, I can't think of a single place that's a restaurant + brewery that doesn't at least have some form of BMC on tap or in bottles. Period. They're a money maker, and in demand.

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

 

[WTF_Brewing]

I'm pretty sure I know what tourist trap he's talking about. I've driven by several times on my way through, but have never had time to stop. Trying to eat the 72 ouncer is one of the things on my bucket list. Now that the place is also going to be a brew pub, come Hell or high water, I WILL stop next time I am in the area

 

[ongreystreet]

Oh, and don't forget about fermentation temp control. It might turn into a bear in the big tanks.

For real, what sort of refrigeration are you getting for your fermenters? If you assume you only cool the space your in to around 74, and want to ferment at say around 64, you'll need to cool your beer down at least 10 degrees + heat of fermentation(have no idea how much heat 80 gallons of brew creates)

Also are you brewing indoors? A 130 MBH propane burner in a commercial brewing setting will probably require a hood and a dry fire protection system. Or at least some sort of ventilation. It can also affect the existing egress. Maybe someone with some experience in this area will know.

 

[kaiser423]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

My chevy dealer has a ton of fords in the used, beater lot. Actually, makes for a pretty apt analogy if you ask me

Look, some people ONLY drink Bud Light. I know, I work with ~6 of 'em. Good guys, like good beers actually, but at the end of the day they want a Bud Light, as cold as you can get it.

This guy is also running a restaurant. It makes absolutely no sense to alienate your *primary* customers, yes the restaurant is the primary business here, in order to try and push better beer on them. A certain percentage of pretty much any customer base likes BMC. It would be ridiculous to have the small on the side brewery push out incredibly popular beers just, well, to be beer snobs.


On the flip side, I agree with you about having light beers on tap as a transition. Heck, push 'em even, that's great. But you still need some BMC for those whom do not budge. The guy that won Sam Adam's longshot has his own pub where I live where they serve his beers. They tried to get away from some BMC, but had to put it back on tap quite simply because not having it on tap drastically hurt their sales. And this is a pretty upscale brewery/restaurant that highly advertises it's kick-ass beers. As a side note, that dude likes his maltiness way too much for my taste, and I'm not even a hop head. I have to have either his pale or an IPA because anything else is just too damned sweet! Makes sense, people in this area love slightly sweet beers. I abhor them. If they're short on the not-sweet beers, I go with a BMC just because I don't want a sweet beer, lol.

Bottom line is take care of your customers first, and evangalize second. You don't know your customers better than themselves, so actually listen to them some. If they want BMC, serve up some token BMC. I guarantee you that a place that serves a 72oz. steak has some people whom are diehard BMC drinkers.

 

[robtotten]

Eating a 72 ounce steak is one thing, but all the sides would probably get me.

 

[bja]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

Are you serious?

Half of all beer drinkers drink nothing but BMC. That's the way it is. So you're suggesting that they just throw away 50% of their beer sales?

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

I'm not a basher, but that's like a Chevrolet dealer selling Ford. Every brewery is your competition and your goal is to eliminate them. This is why you have what's called a "transition beer". This gets the BMC drinkers sold on craft brew. A nice easy drinking, light flavor beer. Enough hops to get them to notice them a bit more than that rainwater known as BMC. I care about my customers enough to not serve them BMC. No one can properly rationalize the desire to drink BMC type beers. American light lager is a step above urine.

Along with the other comments that about 50% or more of people being BMC drinkers I have to say that although breweries are your competition they can also be very helpful and supportive of new startups. Look at the multitudes of beers done through partnerships and collaborations. Heck, look at the brewpubs here in Austin and although they brew their own beer they still have 5-10 taps just for other local breweries. They help to promote each other and there are certain pubs that I go to because not only are the house beers good but they also have amazing selections of the "competitions" beer. It is a pretty tight knit industry and it never hurts to stay close to your competition.

 

[pokerfreak2]

For real, what sort of refrigeration are you getting for your fermenters? If you assume you only cool the space your in to around 74, and want to ferment at say around 64, you'll need to cool your beer down at least 10 degrees + heat of fermentation(have no idea how much heat 80 gallons of brew creates)

Also are you brewing indoors? A 130 MBH propane burner in a commercial brewing setting will probably require a hood and a dry fire protection system. Or at least some sort of ventilation. It can also affect the existing egress. Maybe someone with some experience in this area will know.

We have decide to put the fermentors into a refrigerated trailer that is already set up, so we can keep temps under control with no trouble. Also I mentioned that instead of direct fire burner we bought a 100 gal steam kettle and 10- 110 gal fermentors, so we are hoping to be fermenting 100 gal in each. Which will up the monthly total to appox 3000 gal.

As for the BMC debate, we will be serving 2 BL and CL. As much as I would like to eliminate them, that is not an option at this point, it may be in the years to follow....

 

[itsme6582]

Any chance you would post some of the recipes? 3000 gallons a month, that is a big number. What are the dimensions on a 100 gallon steam kettle and a 110 gallon fermentor?

 

[ongreystreet]

A steam kettle would be much better then a burner, for obvious reasons. Typical NG/LP kettles, such as a Blodgett, will still require a hood or ventilation.

 

[sweet_corn]

Just remember a refrigerated semi trailer is made to maintain temperature, not necessarily cool things. I think as long as you start with a proper fermentation temperature, you should be ok.

THanks!

 

[ongreystreet]

Just remember a refrigerated semi trailer is made to maintain temperature, not necessarily cool things. I think as long as you start with a proper fermentation temperature, you should be ok.

THanks!

Yea, ten 100 gallon batches is a lot to keep cool with a trailer, it will help keep it cooler assuming the evaporator can run at a small margin below fermentation temperature, but it's far far from any sort of temperature control. This means fermenting all beer at the same temperature regardless of style, yeast, or schedule. Not to mention using coil jackets(usually glycol) saves a lot of energy and gives a lot more control. I've never been to a brewery or brewpub using open air refrigeration for fermentation, although I have heard of it being used successfully.

Canyon, Texas has an average low of under 34 degrees for 5 months a year, what about heat control? I am sure the trailer would be insulated and sealed, but so are most modern buildings and they still require additional heat at night to maintain temperatures.

 

[weirdboy]

I would never try to run a commercial brewery operation that didn't have jacketed fermenters.

 

[pokerfreak2]

We just got back from a road trip to try 2 brewpubs out and to check out thier set-ups. One was doing partial mash/ extract brewing and the other all grain with 4 - 15 bbl serving tanks. After trying all the beers, we were very disappointed in both places, all beers had poor to no head retention, most were way over hopped and just plain FLAT, it was like they were out of Co2, but the better beers overall were made at the extract brewery. Ya go ahead and scream at me now. I was going to buy a growler to go of my favorite. I didn't by a growler to go of any of it.

About the fermenting trailer, It can maintain a temp of 40 deg. I really don't see a problem.

I just opened a chocolate bock that has only been bottled 2 weeks and it has way better head retention and WOW what flavor than anything we tried today.

 

[Weizenwerks]

My chevy dealer has a ton of fords in the used, beater lot. Actually, makes for a pretty apt analogy if you ask me

I'm talking new vehicles, not used.

This guy is also running a restaurant. It makes absolutely no sense to alienate your *primary* customers, yes the restaurant is the primary business here, in order to try and push better beer on them. A certain percentage of pretty much any customer base likes BMC. It would be ridiculous to have the small on the side brewery push out incredibly popular beers just, well, to be beer snobs.

What's the point in becoming a brewery if you are going to sell other beers? Breweries make beer and sell it for profit. BMC has no place in an establishment that brews their own beer and neither does any other beer.

On the flip side, I agree with you about having light beers on tap as a transition. Heck, push 'em even, that's great. But you still need some BMC for those whom do not budge. The guy that won Sam Adam's longshot has his own pub where I live where they serve his beers. They tried to get away from some BMC, but had to put it back on tap quite simply because not having it on tap drastically hurt their sales. And this is a pretty upscale brewery/restaurant that highly advertises it's kick-ass beers. As a side note, that dude likes his maltiness way too much for my taste, and I'm not even a hop head. I have to have either his pale or an IPA because anything else is just too damned sweet! Makes sense, people in this area love slightly sweet beers. I abhor them. If they're short on the not-sweet beers, I go with a BMC just because I don't want a sweet beer, lol.

Bottom line is take care of your customers first, and evangalize second. You don't know your customers better than themselves, so actually listen to them some. If they want BMC, serve up some token BMC. I guarantee you that a place that serves a 72oz. steak has some people whom are diehard BMC drinkers.

Sorry, competitor beers are not allowed in my establishment.

Are you serious?

Half of all beer drinkers drink nothing but BMC. That's the way it is. So you're suggesting that they just throw away 50% of their beer sales?

I don't care what other people think. You come to my brewery to drink my beer, not someone else's. People don't understand the concept of craft beer.

Along with the other comments that about 50% or more of people being BMC drinkers I have to say that although breweries are your competition they can also be very helpful and supportive of new startups. Look at the multitudes of beers done through partnerships and collaborations. Heck, look at the brewpubs here in Austin and although they brew their own beer they still have 5-10 taps just for other local breweries. They help to promote each other and there are certain pubs that I go to because not only are the house beers good but they also have amazing selections of the "competitions" beer. It is a pretty tight knit industry and it never hurts to stay close to your competition.

I don't help competition, I beat it. If competitors help each other, then it isn't competition. This is a business, not a group hug.

What the OP wants to do is fine with the OP. If it works, great.