2nd failure batch after 12 good batches (funk/spoiled smell & twang taste) help?

[Harambe]

Has anyone else experienced this description before in a batch of cider?

Hoping someone can take a second to read this and offer some insight...

I do my batches of cider the same way every time in two 6.5 gallon carboys side by side and have had mostly good results with this simple recipe in each one...

Carboy rinsed with really hot water
5 gallons juice (not from concentrate/no additives)
5 lbs honey (mixed with 48 oz of water, boiled then cooled to warm to mix and added to carboy)
US-05 dry ale yeast (added 24 hours after juice/honey mixture has sat at room temp/66-69°)
Wrap in blanket, give it a little bit of a wiggle a couple times a week
Rack to secondary 5-gal carboy after 4 weeks

The batches acted as all others have, fermentation seemed to go well, smelled fine every time i checked them. Got to the 4 week mark and pulled them out to rack to secondary carboys... The first one was perfect, excellent apple flavor but dry, just the way I like it. Then, started to rack the second one and immediately something was off.

The color was a little darker than usual and the smell has this kind of funk going on, hard to explain. An almost "spoiled" sort of smell but not terrible... just noticeably different from previous batch i had JUST racked. Siphoned out a sample and right away the taste is just different... has an undesirable funky/tangy finish. Not in some sort of good way either. Completely different from the good batch I just racked 20 min earlier.

I'm a bit dumbfounded that 2 batches, identical to each other sitting side by side could have 2 different results. To put it in historical perspective regarding my cider, i've done this same batch 14 times now over the last year. Have had great results now except for this recent one and one other about 4 months ago. I thought the first time it happened was some sort of fluke but now that the identical symptoms just showed themselves again a 2nd time, there must be some sort of issue that is going on that I am at risk too with every batch I make???

bacteria? temperature? sat on lees too long? somehow still too much light got to it? should have racked sooner and that wouldn't have happened?

how did one batch turn out great and the one right next to it turn out funky?

how can i prevent this in the future?

has anyone else experienced this before in a batch of cider?

Thank you in advance for taking time to offer some assistance to a cider noob.

 

[johnnyseko]

Carboy rinsed with really hot water

I'm a newb too but this got me wondering,,,,,any star san?? Did you sanitize or just rinse? I'd be concerned something was growing in your carboy that you don't want.

 

[Harambe]

I'm a newb too but this got me wondering,,,,,any star san?? Did you sanitize or just rinse? I'd be concerned something was growing in your carboy that you don't want.

i have not used any star san. i have always just immediately added the next batch right after the one I just racked so the carboy never sits empty. I always just hot water all the yeast cake out of the bottom, rinse a few times till completely clear again and water has mostly stopped dripping out, and add the next 5 gallons of juice right into it. the carboy never just sits empty for any period of time.

do you think it is a bacteria issue?

 

[johnnyseko]

That would be my first guess for sure.

 

[bernardsmith]

or the yeast could be stressed because they are being asked to work with few or no nutrients. What is the SG of the "cider" and how many times have you used the same batch of yeast? Is the "funky" smell H2S (hydrogen sulfide)? - that smells like rotten eggs or sewer gas. Does it smell like burnt matches (that's mercaptans) both /either are signs of stressed yeast.

 

[Harambe]

or the yeast could be stressed because they are being asked to work with few or no nutrients. What is the SG of the "cider" and how many times have you used the same batch of yeast? Is the "funky" smell H2S (hydrogen sulfide)? - that smells like rotten eggs or sewer gas. Does it smell like burnt matches (that's mercaptans) both /either are signs of stressed yeast.

the SG of the batches with honey usually comes out between 1.060 and 1.065. i have used this yeast (US-05) for every single batch with no problems ever on brown sugar batches (about 10 5-gal batches), and now 2 failed 5-gal batches out of 14 when using honey. i mean i guess 2 batches out of 24 total having had this issue is not that bad... but it sure would be nice to figure out what it is that is happening to then have zero more failed batches.

i'm not sure if either of your descriptions are what it smells like. it's not wrotten egg or sewer like i don't think... those smells sound very noticeable. it's a little more subtle. i can't say it smells like burnt matches. it still retains a bit of its cider smell and taste, just with a slight undesirable "old" or "spoiled-ish" smell and finish that is undesirably tangy/twangy. the best i can think of to describe it is like this is what i picture cider that has sat too long would smell/taste like but its not old at all. and the batch that was identical right next to it had no such issues at all.

maybe it's too hard to explain on here what is happening and someone would just have to smell/taste it in person to pinpoint what is going on if they've experienced it in the past.

 

[Maylar]

I suspect that one of your carboys has something growing in it besides your yeast. Time for a thorough cleaning and Star San sanitizing.

 

[johnnyseko]

I had a gallon of UV pasteurized orchard cider go 'wild' on me in my fridge before I had even opened it. (I had no idea it could ferment so cold) The plastic jug was so bloated..... I poured it off into a glass carboy to let the natural yeast continue for a few weeks. The result was just like you are describing. An off-tasting, tangy, almost vinegary juice. I can't tell you what it was, but it was nasty and it ended up down the sink.

 

[bernardsmith]

But if the problem is bacterial you should be able to grow a culture of the bacteria in a petri jar and ask a chemist to identify the organism.

 

[Anyhowe]

Easy. Clean. Clean. And then sanitize with starzan. Cleaning and sanitizing are not the same. Enjoy the brewing process. Shiny is your friend. .