240V 5500W Single Pot Mash/Boil Control, Help

[rnm410]

/edited

Mash at 120V, and for boil use 120V through the SSR with 120V constant via switch.

Thanks
R

 

[augiedoggy]

I may not be reading it right But I dont understand how you can run both hots to the single ssr in #1 and #2.. and #3 is wrong too your element has 2 inputs so its either one hot and one neutral (120v) or two hots and no neutral (240)and then you ground the element and kettle. you never combine your two hot leads..

 

[rnm410]

I may not be reading it right But I dont understand how you can run both hots to the single ssr in #1 and #2.. and #3 is wrong too your element has 2 inputs so its either one hot and one neutral (120v) or two hots and no neutral (240)and then you ground the element and kettle. you never combine your two hot leads..

Thanks, I will rework the diagram. Better to get this out of the way here,

Can a 24-380V SSR not handle 240V, or do they have to be in phase?

Will also have to read on wiring 240V elements. It is a 240V 5500W camcao.

 

[doug293cz]

None of the diagrams represent a workable system. Below is a diagram for a pretty minimal, safe design.



You can leave out the circuit breaker if the control panel is fed from a 30A circuit. The breaker was included in case the control panel was going to be fed from a 50A circuit.

Brew on

 

[ajdelange]

If you are asking what I think you are you should not be undertaking this project. The SSRs have 4 terminals: two for control and two for switching. If the #2 picture means that both hots go to one of the switching terminals on the SSR you will, as soon as the switch is thrown, short the two hots and trip the breaker. If in #3 you close the switch and trigger the SSR you will again short the two phases and the breaker will trip unless the SSR is destroyed before it has a chance to.

 

[rnm410]

Thanks for the help so far

 

[ajdelange]

Much better. Now if you want the option for half power put a diode in series with the switch and another switch across the diode. It would be a good idea to have a dual pole switch in the H lines as when that is opened the circuit is deenergized - same idea as the contactor and breaker in #4.

 

[The_Bishop]

You cannot do what you are trying to do without a different type of switch or DPDT contactor. Your original diagram is a dead short, this one will just shut down the element when the switch is off. Again, if you need to ask this you should not be undertaking this project; electricity of this magnitude is unforgiving and can kill you or set fires.

 

[rnm410]

You cannot do what you are trying to do without a different type of switch or DPDT contactor. Your original diagram is a dead short, this one will just shut down the element when the switch is off. Again, if you need to ask this you should not be undertaking this project; electricity of this magnitude is unforgiving and can kill you or set fires.

Thank you, that is why I am consulting a few sources. This is a safe learning project.

Any issues with:

 

[Bobby_M]

You'd be better off with a DPDT center off switch. That way you have a positive disconnect of the element and both lines get broken between selections. I've used the Bryant 3025BRN switch for this.

 

[rnm410]

You'd be better off with a DPDT center off switch. That way you have a positive disconnect of the element and both lines get broken between selections. I've used the Bryant 3025BRN switch for this.

Thank you, we know the PID controls to a certain temperature value. When boiling comes to play, how well does a PID control boil rate/boil vigor?

 

[Bobby_M]

If you get a PID model that has manual control as well, it does a fine job. Auber 2352 or Mypin TD4.

 

[rnm410]

If you get a PID model that has manual control as well, it does a fine job. Auber 2352 or Mypin TD4.

Any advice on:

DPDT switch vs DP Contactor Relay?

And for the Bryant 3025BRN, is this correct:

Pos A = L1 Supplied through A1
Pos B = L1 & L2 Supplied through B1 & B2
Middle = All open

 

[Bobby_M]

If you do it with contactors, you'll need two of them and a 3 position rotary switch, on off on. A single DPDT switch is cheaper and way more compact than a switch and two DP contactors. Some people get twitchy about the fact that the full load is connecting near the faceplate of the controller, but it's not like a non standard use. The switch is made for 30 amps.

 

[rnm410]

None of the diagrams represent a workable system. Below is a diagram for a pretty minimal, safe design.

You can leave out the circuit breaker if the control panel is fed from a 30A circuit. The breaker was included in case the control panel was going to be fed from a 50A circuit.

Brew on

I have a question on this diagram, which seems to be the same as most P-J single elemet diagrams, When the contactor is closed, will 120V be in constant supply to the element?

Or is L1 dependent on L2?

If so I would not be able to control my mash at 120V.

 

[rnm410]

And is:

This a workable idea?

SSR input is 3-32 VDC
PID output is 8VDC

 

[doug293cz]

And is:

This a workable idea?

SSR input is 3-32 VDC
PID output is 8VDC

This circuit will not work.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I have a question on this diagram, which seems to be the same as most P-J single elemet diagrams, When the contactor is closed, will 120V be in constant supply to the element?

Or is L1 dependent on L2?

If so I would not be able to control my mash at 120V.

I learned a lot about controller designs by studying P-J's designs. All of the ones that I have done are different in some of the details than P-J's. For, example, I do not use the current limited short to ground method for an emergency stop (many of my designs don't have an emergency stop as there are other ways that will shut the power down just as fast, that are just as accessible.) I also put the contactor in front of the SSR, whereas P-J usually has the contactor after the SSR for one of the hot lines.

This specific design is strictly 240V only. There is no 120V available to use. It was put together for another HBT member based on their specific requirements. I have a couple of designs that allow switching the element between 120V and 240V, but they have other stuff in them that you apparently aren't looking for. I'll modify one of those and post later.

Brew on

 

[rnm410]

I learned a lot about controller designs by studying P-J's designs. All of the ones that I have done are different in some of the details than P-J's. For, example, I do not use the current limited short to ground method for an emergency stop (many of my designs don't have an emergency stop as there are other ways that will shut the power down just as fast, that are just as accessible.) I also put the contactor in front of the SSR, whereas P-J usually has the contactor after the SSR for one of the hot lines.

This specific design is strictly 240V only. There is no 120V available to use. It was put together for another HBT member based on their specific requirements. I have a couple of designs that allow switching the element between 120V and 240V, but they have other stuff in them that you apparently aren't looking for. I'll modify one of those and post later.

Brew on

I could not tell you how much I would appreciate that.

If I can find the switch I may go with bobbys design.

Still have a question about your contactor method. When the contactor is closed, does that power the element, or does the SSR have to close aswell?

I see it as 120V on always, and 240V when SSR closes. Please correct me.

Best
R

 

[doug293cz]

I could not tell you how much I would appreciate that.

If I can find the switch I may go with bobbys design.

Still have a question about your contactor method. When the contactor is closed, does that power the element, or does the SSR have to close aswell?

I see it as 120V on always, and 240V when SSR closes. Please correct me.

Best
R

The contactor controls whether or not the element can be powered at all. The SSR actually controls when the element is on or off. An SSR is an electronically controlled switch. Current flows in a loop. If you interrupt the loop at any point, then no current will flow. That's what the SSR does, breaks the loop so no current can flow. No current, no power. With the contactor closed and the SSR off, there will still be voltage on the element (at least for a 240V system), but no current will flow.

Here's the diagram using contactors to control whether the element gets 120V or 240V.



I wouldn't use a control panel that didn't include lighted indicators to indicate the voltage/power status of the element output. Years ago, I designed something without power indicator lights, and I won't do it again. You have to make your own decision.

Brew on

 

[rnm410]

The contactor controls whether or not the element can be powered at all. The SSR actually controls when the element is on or off. An SSR is an electronically controlled switch. Current flows in a loop. If you interrupt the loop at any point, then no current will flow. That's what the SSR does, breaks the loop so no current can flow. No current, no power. With the contactor closed and the SSR off, there will still be voltage on the element (at least for a 240V system), but no current will flow.

Here's the diagram using contactors to control whether the element gets 120V or 240V.

View attachment 332823

I wouldn't use a control panel that didn't include lighted indicators to indicate the voltage/power status of the element output. Years ago, I designed something without power indicator lights, and I won't do it again. You have to make your own decision.

Brew on

Thank you, and of course, I was drawing simplified diagrams. I would not use a panel without lighted indicators for the switches.

My confusion comes from my understanding of only 120V and DC circuits. I guess its the phase shift/reverse polarity that drives 240V from 2x 120V legs.

I am going to do a cost comparison between the three diagrams here, after I do my final schematic I'll post her here. I'm sure they will be a copy of what exist already.

Something I learned today is my JLD612 has a manual mode. That may open 240V all for me.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[doug293cz]

Thank you, and of course, I was drawing simplified diagrams. I would not use a panel without lighted indicators for the switches.

My confusion comes from my understanding of only 120V and DC circuits. I guess its the phase shift/reverse polarity that drives 240V from 2x 120V legs.

I am going to do a cost comparison between the three diagrams here, after I do my final schematic I'll post her here. I'm sure they will be a copy of what exist already.

Something I learned today is my JLD612 has a manual mode. That may open 240V all for me.

Thanks again for your help.

The JLD612 is identical to the Auber 2362 as far as I can tell.

Brew on

 

[rnm410]

The JLD612 is identical to the Auber 2362 as far as I can tell.

Brew on

Dude this is pretty awesome, I'm sure if I understood the fundamentals of 240V better this is what I would have done. It's similar to my current 120V setup.

This weekend thread has helped me understand the 240V beast better.

Thanks to all.

Cheers!
R

 

[augiedoggy]

The JLD612 is identical to the Auber 2362 as far as I can tell.

Brew on

Correct.. as is the "XMT612"

 

[rnm410]

Modified to my standards. Thanks all!