100% 2row Berliner?

[jivex5k]

Hey guys,
I've made a couple Berliners that turned out awesome using 50/50 pilsen/wheat....now my homebrew store is out of both of those.
I really want to brew a new batch up, my last Berliner is all gone now.

How would using 100% 2 row make a Berliner? I'm not familiar with how grains really change beer yet, just started brewing AG, but doing some research it seems like it will just be a more bland flavor.

Well, if I sour it up and rack it onto 6lbs of raspberries I'm thinking it will work. What do you guys think?

Or should I just brew up a pale ale with citra?

 

[jeffjm]

If you use 2-row, you'll have something less bready-tasting and "authentic". It could still turn out an enjoyable beer, however.

I once had the same idea of racking a Berliner onto raspberries. My mistake was not allowing enough headspace for a renewed fermentation. Cleaning raspberries off the ceiling is no fun. The beer turned a pretty pink color, but didn't have much raspberry flavor. If I were to try again, I'd maybe use extract in combination with real fruit.

 

[jivex5k]

If you use 2-row, you'll have something less bready-tasting and "authentic". It could still turn out an enjoyable beer, however.

I once had the same idea of racking a Berliner onto raspberries. My mistake was not allowing enough headspace for a renewed fermentation. Cleaning raspberries off the ceiling is no fun. The beer turned a pretty pink color, but didn't have much raspberry flavor. If I were to try again, I'd maybe use extract in combination with real fruit.

Yeah It's better than not having a beer fermenting, and at only 6lbs of grain it's not going to break the bank if it doesn't turn out great.
Who knows, I could end up preferring it.

I racked onto 3lbs of raspberries last batch and it was awesome. Didn't have an explosive fermentation though, just a slight one.

 

[Arrheinous]

Your store ran out of pilsner malt and wheat?!

The 50% wheat is supposed to help the beer keep its balance and body at low ABV. Could try 2-row and something like Maris Otter or Vienna maybe. Or for a different grain substitute the wheat for flaked oat/rye/etc?

How long do you age for? Might be worth it to hold out for a restock or buy from a supplier online.

 

[jivex5k]

Your store ran out of pilsner malt and wheat?!

The 50% wheat is supposed to help the beer keep its balance and body at low ABV. Could try 2-row and something like Maris Otter or Vienna maybe.

How long do you age for? Might be worth it to hold out for a restock or buy from a supplier online.

Not long, drinking these within a month.
5 days sour mash
5-7 in primary
5-7 in secondary (if I fruit it)
carbonate for a week

Did this twice, definitely could use an extra week after carbing but I'm impatient. But they taste a bit better after 2 weeks in the bottle.

Once I have a pipeline going then I'll be able to abstain lol.

Going to look into MO and Vienna profiles now, thanks!

And yeah, I was like WTF when they told me they were out of those base malts. I mean sure I can understand no wheat but no pilsen???

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Your store ran out of pilsner malt and wheat?!

The 50% wheat is supposed to help the beer keep its balance and body at low ABV. Could try 2-row and something like Maris Otter or Vienna maybe. Or for a different grain substitute the wheat for flaked oat/rye/etc?

How long do you age for? Might be worth it to hold out for a restock or buy from a supplier online.

+1 for subbing flaked oats or flaked barley

 

[jivex5k]

+1 for subbing flaked oats or flaked barley

So 50% flaked oats won't screw up the batch? I'm doing BIAB so a stuck sparge isn't a concern.

What about fermentability?
Here's the original recipe:

4 gallon batch
3# white wheat
3# pilsen
mash @ 145F for 45 min
.5 tett @ 15
20 min boil

sour mash for 5 days under heat lamp at 120F, cools to 80F by the end. squeeze bag and "sparge" ie ladel hot water over bag to bring up volume.
Bring wort to boil, cool, US-05 @ ~64F.

3.15 lbs of raspberries in secondary for a week.

Comes to 1.042 give or take. Finishes around 1.010, higher than I'd like but I'm still trying to get my mashing process down. I always mash too high and should calibrate my thermometer.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

You might want to back off the oats a tad. Perhaps 15-18% of the bill. It won't emulate wheat exactly, but will give you light color, smooth mouthfeel, and unique character. In lieu of getting wheat, that's an enticing option.

 

[jivex5k]

You might want to back off the oats a tad. Perhaps 15-20%.

Ok so 85% 2 row, 15% flaked oats if they even have them lol.
On another forum there was a mention of lacto enjoying some of the stuff that comes from the wheat malt, and that without it the beer may be less sour. The long sour mash is what I enjoy most about this beer, it has a serious sour kick.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

If all your conditions are within range, you will get plenty of lacto activity without wheat.

 

[Arrheinous]

How are you mashing prior to the sour mash itself? A high sacch rest (158F) is supposed to leave a lot of stuff for things like Brett to break down, could work for lacto too.

 

[jivex5k]

I just mash at 145F for 45 minutes. Then I cool the pot to 120F with an ice bath, throw in 2 handfuls of unmilled grain, cover the mash with saran wrap, put on the pot cover, and put foil over that. Then I stick it under the heat lamp for 5 days, I don't want to melt the plastic wrap with the heat lamp so that's why I put foil on it.

 

[BGBC]

Ok so 85% 2 row, 15% flaked oats if they even have them lol.
On another forum there was a mention of lacto enjoying some of the stuff that comes from the wheat malt, and that without it the beer may be less sour. The long sour mash is what I enjoy most about this beer, it has a serious sour kick.

You don't need to get flaked oats from the LHBS. Quaker makes some good ones.

 

[jivex5k]

You don't need to get flaked oats from the LHBS. Quaker makes some good ones.

Damn had no idea that was the same ****.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

You don't need to get flaked oats from the LHBS. Quaker makes some good ones.

Exactly. I just use the off brand quick oats.

 

[jivex5k]

Well thanks guys! I'm going to go with 85% 2 row and 15% flaked oats.
Who knows, may end up even better than the original.

 

[BGBC]

Interested to hear how it turns out. Hope you report back on it. Good luck!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I make an oatmeal blonde ale periodically (82% r-row, 16% flaked quick oats, 2% acid malt) that is a great summer beer (in fact it's carbonating right now). Very light, smooth, and tastes great. I think you'll be fine using oats for your Berliner. Maybe not authentic, but I'll bet it turns out very well.

 

[hotspurdotus]

If you have a Co-Op or natural foods store around, you can probably find flaked wheat or rye there.

Good luck, but I have doubts that 85 Pils/15 Oats will make a very good Berliner.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Good luck, but I have doubts that 85 Pils/15 Oats will make a very good Berliner.

Good? I'll bet so. Authentic? Not in the least.

 

[dcp27]

How are you mashing prior to the sour mash itself? A high sacch rest (158F) is supposed to leave a lot of stuff for things like Brett to break down, could work for lacto too.

lacto likes simple sugars

I just mash at 145F for 45 minutes. Then I cool the pot to 120F with an ice bath, throw in 2 handfuls of unmilled grain, cover the mash with saran wrap, put on the pot cover, and put foil over that. Then I stick it under the heat lamp for 5 days, I don't want to melt the plastic wrap with the heat lamp so that's why I put foil on it.

you don't purge with CO2?

I'd bet this pils/oats 'berliner' turns out just fine as well

 

[jivex5k]

lacto likes simple sugars



you don't purge with CO2?

I'd bet this pils/oats 'berliner' turns out just fine as well

Nope, don't have CO2. In fact I don't have much at all, just a 5 gallon SS pot, paint strainer bags, a couple of carboys, an auto-siphon, wort chiller, and bottle capper. And one cooler for a carboy, use frozen water bottles to keep cool.

I've made two Berliners with saran wrap and a 5 day sour mash, no vomit smell whatsoever. Hell, I even opened the first one twice to taste the sourness level, and didn't even have saran wrap that time, I just used foil.

In fact I'd say they came out freaking awesome. Best beers I've ever made in my entire homebrewing history, but also the first sours and first all grain batches.

 

[Arrheinous]

So the issue here is acetobacteria?

The plastic wrap should work - if you think about it, it's like some kind of synthetic pellicle - but I've done a few sour mashes in a half-full 3G SS pot with just the lid on.

 

[jivex5k]

So the issue here is acetobacteria?

The plastic wrap should work - if you think about it, it's like some kind of synthetic pellicle - but I've done a few sour mashes in a half-full 3G SS pot with just the lid on.

Is that what causes a vinegar like quality? Didn't get any of that, just pure lacto tartness.

You know what did stink though? When a batch I was souring spilled all over the floor and soaked in my rug for 8 hours...That was a week ago, and even with the rug gone I'm still detecting some vomit aroma. It's about gone though, should I worry doing a sour mash in the same area?