Small Amounts of Wine Yeast = Moderate Amounts of Ale Yeast?

Well, let me start off by saying that I was originally planning to make some Apfelwein, Ed Wort style, but I have realized that some plain, sweet, hard cider works better for me. Now, I have everything in order, except the yeast. The only yeast I have is Montrachet yeast, the kind recommended for apfelwein. My recipe calls for rather impotent and slow-working yeast (the original uses yeast collected from apple skins). Some are finding ale yeast to ferment too quickly in relation to the desired final product: A low ABV cider that takes 1-2 weeks to ferment and bottle condition. This leads to a cider that tastes like it needs to be aged, and ends up being closer to an apple wine.

So, my question is: Can I substitute a quite small amount of my Montrachet yeast (Red Star), and achieve the same final product that a slow-fermenting yeast would have? In other words, can I just scale down the amount of yeast to compensate for it's over-effectiveness?

Thanks!

No. The yeast will just multiply until they can eat all the sugar. If you want more residual sugar, it'd be best to use a different strain.

Ah, I forgot to talk about that. I am going to cold crash and gelatin the mix a week or two into it, and then add a bit more yeast when I am ready to bottle. Do you think the yeast will multiply quick enough to catch up before I crash it? If so, do you think that baker's yeast might have a similar effect to natural apple-skin yeast? I would think that cold crashing and adding gelatin would drop out enough of the yeast that the taste wouldn't be intrusive, but maybe so.

my un-scientific opinion is "no". if you pitch insufficient yeast then the sugars won't be completely consumed. that's not the same as a slow ferment that produces certain flavors. either that or the wine yeast will need to multiply a lot to get to the desired population and that will produce a bunch of flavors that again aren't the same as those produced by the original slow-acting yeast.

if ale yeast ferments too quickly, then wine yeast will ferment even faster.

in the end you're trying to get a similar effect with different ingredients. it's like saying a recipe calls for wine, but instead you're adding grape juice and a little grain alcohol. you shouldn't expect similar results. if you want your cider to turn out like the recipe says, you need to follow the recipe... including the yeast.

Alright guys, I think I will play it safe and grab some bakers yeast. Hopefully the gelatin and cold crashing will clear most of the taste out. I will save my montrachet yeast for apfelwein, if I happen to make it here soon.

Thanks for your help!

PickleShaman said:

Alright guys, I think I will play it safe and grab some bakers yeast. Hopefully the gelatin and cold crashing will clear most of the taste out. I will save my montrachet yeast for apfelwein, if I happen to make it here soon.

Thanks for your help!

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Wouldn't go that route either. Baker's yeast is not selected to produce desirable flavors. I would use a low-attenuating ale yeast. There's actually a guy on here who did a TON of yeast experiments with cider. I would read that thread.

i might be wrong, but i was under the impression that the original recipe called for bakers yeast, AKA "slow and impotent". the OP was hoping to speed thigns up by using a different yeast, i.e. something that will work faster and attenuate lower.

Well, the original actually uses the wild yeast on the skin of the apple, but says that bakers yeast is a good alternative. I'm not trying to speed the process, I am actually trying to slow it (while not having to go buy new yeast) so that the point where I decide to cold crash it is less of a pinhead target. Kind of a lazy prospect, I know, but I figured if I could save the trouble of finding new yeast, then why not.

But, CraigTube's recipe is a lot like this one. Notably, the same time frame of 1 week fermentation. The only thing I don't get about his, is how he maintained the sweetness in a 10-12% cider with bakers yeast. I can only presume that it is because of all the sugar he added, and the bakers yeast couldn't handle all of it within a single week. If I can do the same thing, but cold crash before fermentation ends, then I think I may be able to retain the sweetness like he did.

Anyways, I think it is worth a shot, even if it turns out to be a learning experience in the negative sense (just a 1 gallon brew). I think I will know if it isn't sweet enough before I bottle, and even then I could let it sit and see if the sweetness comes with age, as people are saying in other threads. Not to mention, I just checked and bakers yeast is only sold in HUGE bulk where I live :cross: .

If something goes right, I will hopefully to remember to post my results here. Thanks again.

It's been done and in the bottles for quite a while now, and believe it or not, I am actually pretty impressed with it considering how much I augmented the recipe.