McGarnigle
Well-Known Member
The thumbs up doesn't really do anything. I have a ton of them, there all for humorous/snarky comments.
I gave a thumb's down to the post suggesting we use thumb's more often. It seemed like a funny thing to do.
How can we help eliminate misinformation on this site?
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I gave a thumb's down to the post suggesting we use thumb's more often. It seemed like a funny thing to do.
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If you propose to "rate out" the "mis-information" then you also condemn the potential for evolution of concepts.
broadbill
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Absolutely! Remember the hub-bub that no-chill brewing started a couple of years ago? Now, its just another way to brew. Turned out all of those "experts" didn't know what they were talking about.
I'm grateful for this forum and all the information that is floating around on here especially since I'm still very new to all of this. I have learned a lot from you guys and I check the forums daily just to keep up with whats going on. One of the most important things I learned on here is that there are many different ways of doing things. It doesn't make it wrong necessarily, just different. As one of my good Chinese friends used to say when we were growing up....."there are 50 ways you can wok a dog!"
beerloaf
beerloaf
joetothemo
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As for my .02...
No one is a noob forever. As I learn more, I feel confident in sharing info my experiences. I do my best not to parrot or echo the opinions of others unless I know them to be true through my own experiences.
Nearly everyone here is passionate about beer and passionate about brewing better beer. That should be the focus. Not some epic scoreboard of "most threads won."
The way to discourage misinformation is the current method employed... verbal beatdowns in a public forum from the mods and the Yooper/Revvy's of the world.
...Put BendBrewer, MalFet and Golddiggie in there too. I have seen those dudes save people's tails many-a-time (self included).
No one is a noob forever. As I learn more, I feel confident in sharing info my experiences. I do my best not to parrot or echo the opinions of others unless I know them to be true through my own experiences.
Nearly everyone here is passionate about beer and passionate about brewing better beer. That should be the focus. Not some epic scoreboard of "most threads won."
The way to discourage misinformation is the current method employed... verbal beatdowns in a public forum from the mods and the Yooper/Revvy's of the world.
...Put BendBrewer, MalFet and Golddiggie in there too. I have seen those dudes save people's tails many-a-time (self included).
Ok, here's the long answer for you:
It is extraordinarily easy to tell who has a clue on these boards and who doesn't. And with just an ounce of patience, you can almost always be sure that any bad ideas will be routinely squelched by any of the number of experienced brewers that frequent this forum. Anyone can log-in and comment on these boards, so it's up to you to sort the fact from fiction - you know, sort of like the rest of the known universe. To the extent that you would classify someone's opinion as "misinformation," it would serve you well to remember that brewing is only part science. As many will tell you, the yeast does almost all of the heavy lifting when it comes to making your beer. If you or someone else has cracked the code on the definitive explanation of the way yeast behaves in every conceivable circumstance, please do tell. Otherwise, we will all get on here, share our collective experiences (even if said experience is scant), ask our stupid, repetitive questions when it's already covered in a sticky or in another thread still on the first page, give out wildly varying degrees of good advice, and leave it up to the legal-drinking-age adults that are reading the posts to act on the well-intentioned but inherently and obviously unauthoritative resource that this forum is.
In other words, welcome to the internet.
+1 real wisdom here
+1 more wisdom
+1 exactly
joetothemo
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wildwest450
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I agree. Like all the useful threads on setting your co2 to 60 psi and putting them into a paint shaker for 20 minutes to carb. Those evolve nicely into the "why am I pouring all foam threads", which evolve nicely into the stock answer, you need 20 feet of line. Evolution rules.
_
GeoGirl
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As a very new brewer, I came to this forum to see what is tried and true for the experienced brewer but to also see if my experiences are similar to other n00bies. Within 3 days, I knew that Revvy and Yooper were 2 of the folks who's information I would trust (not to knock anyone else). I didn't need a five star system or a thumbs up/down, or any other rating method to figure this out. Simply reading threads and seeing how often these 2 folks are referenced (in a positive light) by others. When a forum member provides links to other posts and outside web sites to support their position/methods adds into the credibility too.
In the forums I participate in, rating systems really do not work. They may start out ok, but a month or two down the road they end up being more of a cliquish feature.
In the forums I participate in, rating systems really do not work. They may start out ok, but a month or two down the road they end up being more of a cliquish feature.
Don't see the need to give extra "Trusted" titles to users. I don't see how that differs from looking at someone's post count and saying, "Well... this person has over 10,000 posts... after all the time spent here I'm pretty sure the person must have learned a number of things."
But then on the flip side you can have a brewer with 30 years experience sign up and be a *forum* noob with only 5 posts but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. And what then if that 30 year brewing veteran corrects a bit of wrong info by a "trusted" member with 12,000 posts?
Bad idea. Forums are what they are and it's simply up to people coming across bad info to point it out. Revvy does a good job with this I've seen on a number of occasions.
Rev.
But then on the flip side you can have a brewer with 30 years experience sign up and be a *forum* noob with only 5 posts but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. And what then if that 30 year brewing veteran corrects a bit of wrong info by a "trusted" member with 12,000 posts?
Bad idea. Forums are what they are and it's simply up to people coming across bad info to point it out. Revvy does a good job with this I've seen on a number of occasions.
Rev.
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
I think a "sandbox" sub-forum for unpopular or unconventional ideas where there aren't any votes would help mitigate some of the issues inherent to the voting system.
I'm not sure if I should post my thoughts on this topic in fear of pumping out more misinformation out there.
Just kidding OP. I know what you are saying in there can be "bad" advice, "good" advice, and "best" advice. That being said brewing is a craft not a science. I dont think the thumbs up/thumbs down won't work because what some people believe isn't what other people believe and there way more than one way to make a great beer. Thumbing can also be widely abused. Take a look at yahoo articles and you will see what I mean.
Think of it like this: If you ask a panel of chefs what his favorite soups are and whats the best way to make them you won't get the same answer from any of them. Most of the stuff on here is personal opinion.
I'm really new at brewing and I read thru tons of opinions and suggestions before I choose which one to try out. I also listen to tons of podcasts, videos, books, articles, different websites, anything I can get my hands on. To me sorting thru all the ideas and opinions and coming up with my own or what works for me is what makes it fun. If you see a post that you feel is crap then say its crap and why its crap and why your way is better.
Just kidding OP. I know what you are saying in there can be "bad" advice, "good" advice, and "best" advice. That being said brewing is a craft not a science. I dont think the thumbs up/thumbs down won't work because what some people believe isn't what other people believe and there way more than one way to make a great beer. Thumbing can also be widely abused. Take a look at yahoo articles and you will see what I mean.
Think of it like this: If you ask a panel of chefs what his favorite soups are and whats the best way to make them you won't get the same answer from any of them. Most of the stuff on here is personal opinion.
I'm really new at brewing and I read thru tons of opinions and suggestions before I choose which one to try out. I also listen to tons of podcasts, videos, books, articles, different websites, anything I can get my hands on. To me sorting thru all the ideas and opinions and coming up with my own or what works for me is what makes it fun. If you see a post that you feel is crap then say its crap and why its crap and why your way is better.
IceFisherChris
Well-Known Member
Honestly I always take people's ideas with a grain of salt, especially when they say "I think" or "I heard"
Perfect example, many people will say you can't bottle beer in bottle with screw off caps. Why do they say that? Because they have heard other people say you shouldn't. I have done 2 batches in screw-offs with absolutely no problems.
My advice, rarely believe someone if they tell you something they haven't tried themselves. For some things, you just have to believe them (I would tell someone not to juggle knives, even though I have never done it. Some people say you must sanitize bottle caps, I don't do that and have no problems.
Perfect example, many people will say you can't bottle beer in bottle with screw off caps. Why do they say that? Because they have heard other people say you shouldn't. I have done 2 batches in screw-offs with absolutely no problems.
My advice, rarely believe someone if they tell you something they haven't tried themselves. For some things, you just have to believe them (I would tell someone not to juggle knives, even though I have never done it. Some people say you must sanitize bottle caps, I don't do that and have no problems.
-TH-
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with this.
Here's my one piece of advice: whenever you read a post, metally put a "My opinion is..." in front of what you read. It will help immensely.
BrookdaleBrew
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I will agree that the "trusted users" idea probably isn't the best way to handle the misinformation problem but I don't see how anyone could say a post rating system would not be beneficial to the community. Sure there is always the potential for abuse but we're all adults here and most of us seem to handle ourselves pretty well.
Again, I'm in no way saying there can't be multiple right answers to a question but I see a surprising number of posts on this site that are just plain wrong. That is the kind of stuff that needs to be weeded out.
Again, I'm in no way saying there can't be multiple right answers to a question but I see a surprising number of posts on this site that are just plain wrong. That is the kind of stuff that needs to be weeded out.
Interesting. But the real question is whether there is anyone on HBT with more than my 4,500 posts who knows less about brewing?
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
*raises hand*
See, this is exactly what's wrong with it. Multiple posters above have told you, in detail, why they think a post rating system a bad idea. You disagree, but instead of saying you disagree, make a blanket statement that discounts their opinions. As stated above, welcome to the internet.
Here's a couple more reasons it would not be beneficial to the community:
- it would elevate the opinions of those who are quick to click the thumbs up or down, but not willing to write a post to express their opinions or thoughts, thus owning or claiming their opinions
- like any anonymous rating system, it is prone to abuse by those who hold a grudge
- there is no way to tell if a thumbs up or thumbs down came from a member who knows what they are talking about
- it has the potential to drive off posters and members - if I posted something and had a bunch of people thumbs downing me, it would not be encouraging to me
We had this same argument on probetalk.com years ago,& it went the same way as this one. It's starting to sound like folks with less experience only want to weed out the geniuses to listen to. And dump the rest in some other forum away from prying eyes. If you're the "adults" you claim to be,then stop trying to create an elitist group. Because this is how it always winds up. Decide for yourself. If you don't know,& have to ask,then decide what'll work for you...
Golddiggie
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I just went over to probetalk.com but found it wasn't about probes at all . . .
BrookdaleBrew
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Who said anything about it being anonymous?
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
Meh, I'm in support of a voting system and while I still have a lot to learn, I'm pretty far from being a noob or wanting to drown out minority opinions. I just happen to spend a lot of time on a site where a voting system is in place and it works out pretty well, and I personally think it could transfer over here well. The great thing about a voting system is even if a couple people abuse it, as long as the majority of people use it properly and avoid knee-jerk ratings, it still works the way it was intended. It's not perfect, I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, it's just an idea to consider.
Because if you log on to HBT to learn that so-and-so has just voted you down, you're more likely to start voting him down, then he'll do it to you to get back at you, and that's how grudges get started. The idea is that there exists on this site a generalized body of knowledge that everyone is privy to at least a fraction of. If there's a critical mass of people on the site with enough knowledge to verify that yes, this statement is correct, and no, this statement is definitely not correct, and abstain when they don't know, then you basically have a scale on which to measure the community's confidence in somebody's answer, which more often than not will, at a minimum, serve as a helpful guide to people who aren't yet experienced enough to sort out the bad advice from the good.
Well, I'm just a medium-level brewer myself and certainly no expert. There are a TON of people with more brewing experience and knowledge. I'm just a bigger blabbermouth than they are.
One of the issues I have with the thumbs up or thumbs down is we get those everyday (mods see them) and sometimes it's just someone who doesn't agree with a statement of "S05 yeast is a good yeast!"
We have the "prost this thread" feature, which may be a better way of acknowledging good solid advice.
Not that kind of probe! lolz. But,they use the same software,& had the same argument. We're all here to learn & relate,folks. It's the same basic thing over there,so I used it as an example.
The idea of rating isn't a bad one at all but I don't think it should be applied to a person but rather a thread and/or post. I may give out 50% good advice and 50% bad advice. Does that make me a trusted poster? I wouldn't say so. However, when I post something that is good advice, and others agree, that post could be rated as "xx% agree with this post". It's a formal way of putting weight on an individual post.
Since the rating system is already tied to each post, there could easily be a up/down count on each post and you could even allow threads to be sorted by post rating.
People already try to get this effect by posting +1 and -1 replies to individual quoted posts. Why not use the tools already in place to formalize it?
Since the rating system is already tied to each post, there could easily be a up/down count on each post and you could even allow threads to be sorted by post rating.
People already try to get this effect by posting +1 and -1 replies to individual quoted posts. Why not use the tools already in place to formalize it?
Edit: Ok, reading Bobby's and Chapa's posts, I think I agree with them. Ignore the following earlier post. Although, if they had just thumbs uped or thumbs downed my post, I wouldn't have changed my mind because they wouldn't have taken the time to engage in the dialogue.
It (the thumbs up and down function) is anonymous now. If you wanted to change it, it would still not be beneficial to the community in some ways, in my opinion:
- it would discourage threads where there is give and take, leading to understanding and evolution of thinking (like Gila and WildWest said earlier), in favor of a quick 'up or down'
- the grudge or stalker problem mentioned
- because its just an up or down, with no explanation, you can't tell if its a worthwhile opinion or not
- it would discourage people from participating in the forum
joetothemo
Well-Known Member
I was just thinking how it would be nice, because there wouldn't be anymore "+1"!! Haha! It would just be a way to give a post more credibility. Surely it could go the other way around, but I think if one post has 20 thumbs up....well its probably good advice!!
BrookdaleBrew
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I seriously doubt that. If I have something else to add that hasn't already been stated, I'm going to mention it, not just "thumbs up" someone else.
How so? Why should I have to back myself up if I agree with someone 100%? Reiterating what has already been said makes no difference.
Not at all. As mentioned, if I have something else to add, I'm going to add it. If someone gets a lot of "thumbs down" then there is probably something inherently wrong with their post to begin with and they should probably take a step back and analyze what they said. If they can't handle a little criticism then they shouldn't be on an internet forum to begin with, right?
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
My hope with cases like that is for every 5 people who give thumbs down on dry yeast just because it's dry yeast, 50 more people would give it a thumbs up. Seeing a negative rating on something you agree with and seeing a positive rating on something you disagree with has a psychological effect on you and makes you want to correct the "error". In that sense a publicly visible rating system can be self-correcting.
On the site I visit with a rating system like this, the average rating even on extremely high scoring posts is usually 1/3 negative, 2/3 positive. A post doesn't need unanimity to be considered "good", just a broad consensus. Highly controversial subjects have a tendency to hover around 50% as people try to "correct" the problem both ways. I think that conveys a lot of meaning.
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There's a reason this site is called homebrewtalk and not homebrewsearch or homebrewfact.
I like the discussions. Many people learn to brew many different ways using many different techniques; yet it all strangely makes beer....
I like the discussions. Many people learn to brew many different ways using many different techniques; yet it all strangely makes beer....
The seriousness of a thread in general would likely lead to the seriousness of the rating system used in that thread.
Concerns about stalking and harassment are unfounded for the most part. If someone has that much time on their hands to create a bunch of phony accounts just to continually thumbs-down someone's post, go for it. It's only a forum. Not only that, one person holding a grudge and hitting a post with a couple negatives would be outweighed by all the legit thumbs-ups. The system works pretty well on youtube.
People won't just +1 for the most part. Sure, there are people that post +1 and that's it, but it's usually followed by an explanation of why they agree. Then again, if propping a well thought out post adds credibility and there's nothing else to say, why is that problem. It's not like the value of a forum is measured on how many individual posts a thread has. That is only evidence of post whoring culture.
Also, I wouldn't advocate any sort of censoring of unpopular posts. Just because it's deemed a less popular opinion doesn't make it less worthy of display here. In fact, we like to point and laugh as silly things people say.
If we're not interested at all in rating or overall forum opinion, you might as well remove the POST thumbs up/down, THREAD rating system and poll functionality so that everyone just discusses everything and all ideas are equal.
Concerns about stalking and harassment are unfounded for the most part. If someone has that much time on their hands to create a bunch of phony accounts just to continually thumbs-down someone's post, go for it. It's only a forum. Not only that, one person holding a grudge and hitting a post with a couple negatives would be outweighed by all the legit thumbs-ups. The system works pretty well on youtube.
People won't just +1 for the most part. Sure, there are people that post +1 and that's it, but it's usually followed by an explanation of why they agree. Then again, if propping a well thought out post adds credibility and there's nothing else to say, why is that problem. It's not like the value of a forum is measured on how many individual posts a thread has. That is only evidence of post whoring culture.
Also, I wouldn't advocate any sort of censoring of unpopular posts. Just because it's deemed a less popular opinion doesn't make it less worthy of display here. In fact, we like to point and laugh as silly things people say.
If we're not interested at all in rating or overall forum opinion, you might as well remove the POST thumbs up/down, THREAD rating system and poll functionality so that everyone just discusses everything and all ideas are equal.
Here's an interesting question...is it possible to see which post in a thread the # of thumbs up on "my profile" is keeping track of? That'd help me a lot,anyway. So many posts,so few neurons,lolz. And by the way,I'm retired with not much else to do (in the off season,anyway),so I guess that does make me a post hoe' haha.
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