doublehaul
Well-Known Member
Do you think Fermentis Saflager 34/70 would be a good choice for a Maibock?
34/70 for Maibock
- Thread starter doublehaul
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Sure, that'll work. It's the classic German Lager strain from Weihenstephan. I'd pitch two rehydrated packs per carboy, too.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
It'll be good...although, I'd recommend S-23 and mash low, 148-150. I like the effect of a moderate attenuating yeast on a highly fermentable wort.
34/70 can be sulfury too.
34/70 can be sulfury too.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Man Ive read some bad things about S23 being fruity, and the only 3470 iI can find locally is $8 a pack... and Im being cheap. I was just trying to get a batch together for the weekend and dont have time to build a starter for liquid yeast. So maybe ill scrap it until next weekend or throw an ale together.
I do not like S-23 either because of it's ester profile. To be fair, I used in German style lagers, and fruity esters do not belong in the styles I was using it with. $8/pack for 34/70 is pretty high. Is that your LBHS?
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
Either S23 or 34/70 are good choices. I have used S23, both at home an commercially, since it was introduced in the late 90s. I've brewed tons of different lagers with it; Bo Pils, Marzen, Doppelbock/Doppelmaibock, Schwarzbier, and so on... have fermented it very cold (into the upper 30s) and never once had anything but a clean, malty beer... never any of the fruity esters people sometimes report. I honestly don't know what causes some people to have that problem. Weird. 34/70 does tend to throw sulfur, but it will fade over time. I am using 34/70 for a doppelmaibock at the brewery tomorrow, in fact. I chose it over the S23 in this case because I wanted the slightly higher attenuation for this beer.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
Wailing -I used 3470 in a bopils and really liked it. Wow upper 30s I've never fermented that low.
Tiber -yep a local store. I guess if u include what you'd pay shipping its not that bad but $16 in dry yeast?!
Tiber -yep a local store. I guess if u include what you'd pay shipping its not that bad but $16 in dry yeast?!
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
wailing - did you mean lager in the upper 30s? your primary fermentation must have been higher, no? thanks
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
No, active ferment. I would start at 50-55 and slowly ramp down over several days.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Starting lagers warm then lowering the temp to traditional lager temps is ill advised. This is old convention, like using secondaries, and is counter productive. Lowering the temp only encourages the yeast to shut down and flocculate out and even result in esters related to yeast stress as they hastily adjust to temp swings. The idea that starting warm helps the yeast get started is moot. If you pitch appropriate quantity of yeast starter or rehydrated dry yeast, they will start fine and you'll get a cleaner beer if you patiently wait for your wort to reach the desired ferm temp before pitching.
Tons of people do it and will say "my beers turn out fine," but that doesn't change the fact that its a bad habit that we shouldn't be telling new brewers.
Tons of people do it and will say "my beers turn out fine," but that doesn't change the fact that its a bad habit that we shouldn't be telling new brewers.
For a Maibock, I like Wyeast 2206 or WLP833. That said, 34/70 will make a perfectly good beer.
If you go with liquid yeasts, make a big starter. If you use 34/70, pitch two packs into 5 gal.
Regardless of which yeast you use, oxygenate like it's going out of style and control the fermentation temp. I like to pitch at 45, ferment at 50 for a week, then raise to the mid 60's for a week before crashing down to lagering temps. I've also had great results with Wyeast 2124 by pitching at 45 F and fermenting at 50 F for 3 weeks before crashing down to 38. I haven't tried 34/70 like that, though.
Also be aware that 34/70 is less flocculant than 2206 or 833. When using the 34/70 strain, I typically add some gelatin to my keg before racking the beer into it.
If you go with liquid yeasts, make a big starter. If you use 34/70, pitch two packs into 5 gal.
Regardless of which yeast you use, oxygenate like it's going out of style and control the fermentation temp. I like to pitch at 45, ferment at 50 for a week, then raise to the mid 60's for a week before crashing down to lagering temps. I've also had great results with Wyeast 2124 by pitching at 45 F and fermenting at 50 F for 3 weeks before crashing down to 38. I haven't tried 34/70 like that, though.
Also be aware that 34/70 is less flocculant than 2206 or 833. When using the 34/70 strain, I typically add some gelatin to my keg before racking the beer into it.
Fact ^^
Using modern lager fermentation and conditioning practices, S-23 produces more fruity esters than any other lager yeast I've used. I must have tried 8-10 lager yeasts for my Pils recipe, and one of the worst was S-23.
That's pretty different from fermenting in the high 30s...after "several days" the beer is prolly done and you are effectively just lagering at that point.
FWIW I've always enjoyed the beers I've made with S-23 - usually Boh pils though.
What have you observed with S-23 as far as residual diacetyl?
Weezy
Well-Known Member
I don't get diacetyl, but I always finish lagers at ale temps
.
Maibocks are traditionally malty, rich beers. This isn't a dry lager.
.
Maibocks are traditionally malty, rich beers. This isn't a dry lager.
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
No, we are talking actual fermentation according to daily gravity readings. I haven't got the notes from that brew handy, but by 'several' we are talking like 4 or 5 days in with a steady temp drop and terminal gravity not reached until about a week after final temp drop. Total ferment time about 14 to 16 days before terminal gravity was reached. I would then drop a few more degrees to 35 to lager for 2 weeks then down to 33 to pull yeast and filter. Never a need for a warm temp diacetyl rest. For that matter, no lager I have ever done, regardless of strain has actually needed warm temp rest.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
Well I scored 2 packs of 34/70. dfhar's schedule is about what I had planned, except I was only planning on the diacetyl rest for 2 or 3 days, and I was going to lager at 38F. Sound like a good plan?
I find that a maturation rest of a week at 65-70 degrees instead of a 2 day d-rest does help the beer clean up a bit faster and reduces the amount of lagering time necessary before the beer is drinkable. You want to raise the beer to this temperature while the yeast is still active, but not before it's at least 75% attenuated. I think Kai Troester does his lagers the same way.
34/70 gives a virtually identical end result to 2124, a yeast which I do really like. I recently made a marzen with it that turned out fantastic. However, 34/70 can throw a bit more sulphur during fermentation, so be aware of that. It will completely disappear with the maturation rest and some lagering time.
34/70 gives a virtually identical end result to 2124, a yeast which I do really like. I recently made a marzen with it that turned out fantastic. However, 34/70 can throw a bit more sulphur during fermentation, so be aware of that. It will completely disappear with the maturation rest and some lagering time.
I asked because you said you like it in Boh Pils. Thought maybe you got more diacetyl from this strain.
That's pretty close to what I recommend in my Ger Pils recipe in the database. I extend that warm rest to 2 weeks and use that time to carbonate the kegs as well. When it comes time to lager the beer, it's already so clean that all I'm looking for is precipitation.
I, too, get some sulfur from 34/70, but that cleans up early second stage and completely by the end of the diacetyl rest. If you're like me and you want a little bit of sulfur in your crisper lagers, try the Bock Lager yeast from White Labs.
the last 2 packs of 34/70 they charged me $8/pack. I love the yeast but that is too much for dry yeast. I would rather buy 2 packs of fresh wy2124 for only a couple dollars more (starters don't work with my lifestyle as my brewing plans frequently get interrupted).
s23 can make a great beer but when things go less than perfect, they go so wrong. 34/70 is a lot more forgiving and its main "off-flavour" is sulphur that will lager out. The s23 fruitiness isn't going anywhere once its created.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
I didn't say the boh pils. I wouldn't use s23 for that type of lager. Its not attenuative enough.
Sorry, I got mixed up there. You answered a question that I directed at osagedr, so I mistook you as the one who used S-23 for Boh Pils.
