Finished high, what are my options

Hi folks,

I brewed a 1080 beer on the 20th, by last Thursday all sign of activity had stopped and it wasn't bubbling anymore, checked the gravity and it was at 1032. I decided to leave it at 19.5C for a few more days to see if it would finish, today it is still 1032!

I did pitch two packs of Safale S-04 so I'm not sure why it's finished so high, so what can I do to shift the required 10 or so extra points?

Thanks,
Paul

I would first try to roust the yeast up from the bottom of the fermenter.

dantodd said:

I would first try to roust the yeast up from the bottom of the fermenter.

Click to expand...

Does that involve a fairly rigorous stir?

PaulStat said:

Does that involve a fairly rigorous stir?

Click to expand...

yep......................

I wouldn't stir it- you don't want to oxidize it at all. I'd pick it up and swirl it around some at most.

As to what else to do, I guess it depends on the recipe and ingredients (some just won't ferment as well as others) and the style of beer. S04 doesn't attenuate as well as some other yeast, but I assume you picked it because you wanted some residual sweetness.

What was your mash temp?

DONT STIR

Move the carboy to a warmer place (75 wouldnt be too warm either) and rock it back and forth.
Stirring is going to oxygenate it and you'll have some yummy wet cardboard beer

Mash temp was 66C for 90 mins, had dropped to 63C by the end of the 90 mins. I seem to get some pretty conflicting views when it comes to how to rouse yeast

PaulStat said:

Mash temp was 66C for 90 mins, had dropped to 63C by the end of the 90 mins. I seem to get some pretty conflicting views when it comes to how to rouse yeast

Click to expand...

OK, need the grain bill now then. At 151 you should have had plenty of fermentables in the wort.

There is no conflicting views on rousing the yeast
DO
NO
STIR

Rock/shake carboy/bucket
DONT
STIR

Get it somewhere warm, that might get you another 10 points. S-04 , while a good yeast tends to stall out and needs to be warmed to finish up.

Here's the brew, 19 litre batch

5440.00 gm Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 83.63 %
455.00 gm Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 6.99 %
155.00 gm Chocolate Malt (940.0 EBC) Grain 2.38 %
455.00 gm Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) Sugar 6.99 %

23.00 gm Fuggles [4.00 %] (90 min) Hops 9.7 IBU
36.00 gm First Gold [6.20 %] (90 min) Hops 23.5 IBU
19.00 gm Fuggles [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.7 IBU

I doubt I'll be able to get it to 75F, 68-70 at the most.

How about a sunny window and a black trash bag?
What was your actual fermentation temperature, getting it 6-8 degrees above that may be enough to get the yeast working again.

That is a plenty fermentable wort if your mash temp was correct.

Fermentation temp was 63.5 to 64.5F for four days, I then upped the temperature to 67-68F for a further 3 days when I suspected it was slowing down/stopping

Wow- with that recipe, and that mash temp, that beer should be chugging along and finishing kind of low. I'm puzzled as to why it's stalled. I agree with trying to gently rouse the yeast, and warming it up slightly if you can. It might get going again. Check the SG in a couple of days, too, to see if it's still dropping slowly.

If you cant warm it up your best bet might be to pitch an active 2 liter starter of US-05

I've warmed up S-04's on South facing windows with black t-shirts over the fermenter.

No question that beer should finish lower than 1.032 though it could still be fermenting , airlock bubbles are not a good indicator of active fermentation.

Well I do have a theory as to why it might of stalled, I couldn't aerate it enough, usually I drop the wort from the boiler into the FV from a good height, but my hop filter clogged meaning I had to run the risk of jugging it across and sieving the hops from it. I've just ordered an aerating gizmo thing so that shouldn't happen in the future.

I should be able to get the room back up to about 70F (the wife will moan though), and I'll wrap the FV in a blanket or something to keep it warm after rousing it. I'm not sure if it's still fermenting or not tbh, like I said when I measured the gravity last thursday it was at 1032 and yesterday it was still 1032, but the beer does still have quite a few bubbles on the surface.

Do you have an electric blanket or a heating pad you could wrap on the fermenter?

Is the fermenter glass or plastic?

babalu87 said:

Do you have an electric blanket or a heating pad you could wrap on the fermenter?

Click to expand...

Nope afraid not

babalu87 said:

Is the fermenter glass or plastic?

Click to expand...

It's plastic

How about a tub of warm water?

Similar to a swamp cooler but use warm water rather than cool.

Start with 85 degree water and see where that gets you.

Ok I managed to get the room up to 72F and I covered the FV with a sleeping bag (is that what you guys call them?)

I gave it a good swirl and heard a very small gurgle in the airlock. So hopefully the yeasties are back in suspension, although the cake at the bottom seems firmly stuck

Ok I've roused it 3 times (when I came home, went to bed, got up) since yesterday, should I expect the airlock to start bubbling if it's working? Because there's nothing.

As I mentioned above the cake at the bottom seems firmly stuck, I suppose that's the problem with a plastic FV I can't really see if the yeast is being kicked up or not.

Don't expect any airlock activity, give it 4 days or a week and check gravity again.

babalu87 said:

There is no conflicting views on rousing the yeast
DO
NO
STIR

Click to expand...

What's the key difference between heavily aerating wort before fermentation begins, and aerating again (on a much smaller scale) stirring during a stuck fermentation? I've read that the yeast wont consume the oxygen, but why is that?

hopvine said:

What's the key difference between heavily aerating wort before fermentation begins, and aerating again (on a much smaller scale) stirring during a stuck fermentation? I've read that the yeast wont consume the oxygen, but why is that?

Click to expand...

Yeast use oxygen when reproducing. They metabolize sugars creating CO2 and alcohol in an environment devoid of oxygen. If beer is aerated there are already plenty of yeast to consume the remaining sugars and they will not revert to reproducing as there are no long adequate sugars to support the additional cells.

When the oxygen is not being used by the yeast it will instead interact with the finished beer and cause oxidation.

dantodd said:

Yeast use oxygen when reproducing. They metabolize sugars creating CO2 and alcohol in an environment devoid of oxygen. If beer is aerated there are already plenty of yeast to consume the remaining sugars and they will not revert to reproducing as there are no long adequate sugars to support the additional cells.

When the oxygen is not being used by the yeast it will instead interact with the finished beer and cause oxidation.

Click to expand...

This explanation almost insinuates that yeast has some sort of "hive mind", or even a single mind to decide that it's not worthwhile to reproduce.

Maybe oxygen + a certain concentration of sugars are two necessary to support the reproductive reaction. That I could buy.

hopvine said:

This explanation almost insinuates that yeast has some sort of "hive mind", or even a single mind to decide that it's not worthwhile to reproduce.

Maybe oxygen + a certain concentration of sugars are two necessary to support the reproductive reaction. That I could buy.

Click to expand...

I did not say why they do not revert back to reproduction because I do not know the mechanism that they use to determine if it is advisable to reproduce. I suppose it could be the sugar content or perhaps the presence of alcohol, or it might be a ratio of the two. It might also be that the lipids needed for reproduction have been consumed and are no longer readily available. There are a large number of potential reasons and since I wasn't sure I didn't guess.

hopvine said:

This explanation almost insinuates that yeast has some sort of "hive mind", or even a single mind to decide that it's not worthwhile to reproduce.

Maybe oxygen + a certain concentration of sugars are two necessary to support the reproductive reaction. That I could buy.

Click to expand...

This...................

So after 4 days of gently rousing the yeast (so is doesn't splash) three times a day and keeping the beer at 70F there is 0 difference, gravity is still 1032. I've even tried adding yeast vit.

So what are my options now?

(a) Accept a 6%+ beer and keg it
(b) It's been in the primary now since the 20th, shall I transfer it to secondary (I almost never do secondary) in the hope that might do something
(c) Make a new S-04 starter and add to the beer
(d) A mixture of b+c
(e) Other

Any ideas?

with previous experience with this, it will taste terrible. I have one stuck at like 1.2x and it is far from pleasant.

I had advice that stated to brew another beer and when you keg it, rack this beer on top of that yeast cake. You will want it to be a similar beer though (lighter ale, darker ale, wheat, belgian, etc.)

I know how frustrating this is... i am still pissed. Nothing worked for me

I would recommend pitching a starter of fresh yeast.

I recently had a 1.095 brew that got stuck at 1.042. Temperature was 80F. Rousing the yeast did nothing. Yeast energizer dropped it to 1.040 and it stalled again.

I made a 1L starter, pitched it in and the gravity dropped to 1.034 in two days. A week later it was at 1.026 (below my estimate of 1.027). It's still bubbling really slowly but it looks like it'll finish out just fine.

EvilGnome6 said:

I would recommend pitching a starter of fresh yeast.

I recently had a 1.095 brew that got stuck at 1.042. Temperature was 80F. Rousing the yeast did nothing. Yeast energizer dropped it to 1.040 and it stalled again.

I made a 1L starter, pitched it in and the gravity dropped to 1.034 in two days. A week later it was at 1.026 (below my estimate of 1.027). It's still bubbling really slowly but it looks like it'll finish out just fine.

Click to expand...

Would it be best if I stuck to using a S-04 starter seeing as that's what was used in the first place, also for the starter should I pour away the wort once it get's going and use the beer in the fermenter to get the yeast used to the environment?

i would pitch the entire thing. if you do that you are only pitching the lazy yeast that dropped out already. the good yeast will still be in suspension. this is exactly what caused the issues that I had to begin with. I did my first starter, did not let it go long enough through it in the fridge to try to get them to drop out decanted the wort and pitched the rest..... no go and a waste of nearly 65 bucks

PaulStat said:

Would it be best if I stuck to using a S-04 starter seeing as that's what was used in the first place, also for the starter should I pour away the wort once it get's going and use the beer in the fermenter to get the yeast used to the environment?

Click to expand...

I would try sticking with S-04. That way you're still making the beer you set out to make. Create a 1L starter like you would for a normal batch (using Dry Malt Extract) and pitch the whole thing in at high krausen if possible. If you're concerned about oxidation, you can crash cool the starter and decant. Personally, I think that would be more likely to stress out the yeast and what you're aiming for right now is to get some healthy, active yeast in there to finish the job.

EvilGnome6 said:

I would try sticking with S-04. That way you're still making the beer you set out to make. Create a 1L starter like you would for a normal batch (using Dry Malt Extract) and pitch the whole thing in at high krausen if possible. If you're concerned about oxidation, you can crash cool the starter and decant. Personally, I think that would be more likely to stress out the yeast and what you're aiming for right now is to get some healthy, active yeast in there to finish the job.

Click to expand...

Right ok, I'll give that a go then, should I move the beer to a secondary FV as well? It's been in the primary for 14 days now

PaulStat said:

Right ok, I'll give that a go then, should I move the beer to a secondary FV as well? It's been in the primary for 14 days now

Click to expand...

I don't think so. It probably wouldn't hurt, but I think it's best to leave a beer in the primary until it's completely done fermenting.

Right I tried moving to secondary and adding a 1L starter on monday, today still no difference, now I'm wondering if I've got an infection, which would be annoying as I was pretty anal about sanatising before moving to secondary. Opinions?

Is that blue on the surface there left and just under center?

You MIGHT have an infection..... and that might be a good thing.
I'd probably rack it to a secondary and let it sit a few months and see if it has soured at all.
MIGHT have a pot o gold there

babalu87 said:

Is that blue on the surface there left and just under center?

You MIGHT have an infection..... and that might be a good thing.
I'd probably rack it to a secondary and let it sit a few months and see if it has soured at all.
MIGHT have a pot o gold there

Click to expand...

It does look blue, but that's probably just some weird lense reflection or something. "might be a good thing" explain

Not all bugs are bad bugs.
IF it is an "infection" it could just be local wild yeasts.
There are Belgian brewers who would congratulate you for having a "sick" beer.

The only way to find out is to let it go.
Do you have a carboy you could tie up for up to a year?

Do you even like sour beers (Flanders Red, Oud Bruins, Lambic)

well I've put it in one of my plastic barrels and removed the air from it so it doesn't get any worse. I'll leave it there for a few months to see how it turns out, not sure if it'll be a year though

I've never tried those beers, I like Belgian beers but have tried relatively few, a number of different leffe's, kwak, duvel and maybe a couple more

Most likely your mash temp was higher than you thought. Double check your thermometer and calibrate if you can. I've never had much success with rousing the yeast. Prayer works about as well.