Protein rest question

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NoNothing

NoNothing

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Ive brewed 3 AG batches so far and I have yet to use a protein rest. I was told with wheat beers a protein rest is very important. So, I have a bit of a question about them.

The recipie Im looking at (5gal Kölsch (10lb of grain)) calls for 20 min PR at 122, 30 min Sac at 153, and a Mashout at 170 for 10mins.

If I want my ratio to be 1.25, where do I measure that 1.25? the final quantity after the mashout? or right after I heat up for the Sac rest? How much water should I be putting in for the PR?
 
I take it you are not able to directly fire your mashes, then.

To do a step mash in a cooler, you will have to figure out your balance between water:grain ratio - and even though you want 1.25qts/lb, it may not happen. I would advise to dough-in thick - around 0.8qts for your initial rest.

Then, you can add boiling water to hit 153 - according to this calculator, you would add a little over 5 qts to achieve 153 - which puts you around 1.33 qts/lb grain for your sacc rest.

Then, you'll add more boiling water to achieve mash-out, making for a thin mash at the end.
 
You are right, I cant direct fire my mash.

But thank you fo the help on the PR. Ill do just that, and I dont mind my mash being that thin, 2 would be a bit rough though lol.
 
I do not have direct experience with infusion steps because I direct fire....

However, I have read some books about German brewing that mention infusion steps as a distinct advantage because the different enzymes you are targeting at the different temperatures work best at different concentrations (i.e., the lower temps should be a thicker mash). This works to your advantage. Perhaps Kaiser or some of the other German technique experts will chime in with more specifics. I seem to remember, starting the mash at a dough-in rest with ~0.8-0.9 qt/lb, but I am not sure.

Does BeerSmith do infusion calcs for you? That would be nice.
 
Boerderij Kabouter said:
Or you could do decoctions for your temp rests. Again I think the German texts suggest adding water to reach the optimum thickness.
Click to expand...

Completely forgot to mention this.

I did a decoction mash for a dubbel (PR - Sacc - MO) and that allows you to keep your water:grain ratio constant throughout the process.
 
Assuming you're using Pilsner malt as the base, what brand is it? In regards to protein rest temps, forget the recipe. Protein Rest temps are more malt specific than recipe specific. Most of the malts available to homebrewers would do better with a Protein/Saccharification Rest (low 130s) than a straight Protein Rest (then your next rest would lean on the Dextrin Rest-side like in the mid to upper 150s, depending on your expected attenuation). Protein rests in the low 120s can negatively affect head retention in most of today's well modified malts with high soluble nitrogen ratios. It's how I got from this:

Pretzel-Meal.jpg


to this:

100_0536-1.jpg
 
NoNothing said:
Im using 9 lbs. Durst Pils as the base.

Would you still advise the ~135 PR and ~155 Sac?
Click to expand...

Definitely. According to the Durst website, the Soluble Nitrogen Ration (listed as "Protein Solution Degree") ranges from 39 to 47. I would do that on anything over 36. If you did the 122dF rest, you'd likely end up with little to no head and a weak mouth-feel... and the beer might not clear as well. That second beer picture in my previous post was a single decoction starting at 134dF going to 156dF and the SNR of the malt was 41 (I have the lot-specific analysis). I've done a few other lagers like this and have been happy with the head formation/retention and clarity (and I don't use Irish moss or any other finings on lagers).
 
I have found that if I mash in around 1 qt/lb for a protein rest at 131, adding enough boiling water to bring me to 1.5 qt/lb will land me right in the zone around 153. You can then adjust from there.

I tried a 122 rest for a 50% wheat beer and it was torture. Stepping to 1.9 qt/lb I was short 7* and ended up using my heat stick for 10 minutes to heat up the mash. Not fun! A cooler absorbs a lot of heat so it takes more water than you would think to do a step infusion in one. I allow an extra 20% for decoctions or step infusions over what BeerSmith says and that usually gets me really close.

You can always cheat and scoop out the grains into your boiling pot, heat them up a few degrees over your target, move them back to the cooler, and then infuse some boiling water until you get back up to your sacc rest temp. I will do this next time I do my Wit.
 
Saccharomyces said:
I have found that if I mash in around 1 qt/lb for a protein rest at 131, adding enough boiling water to bring me to 1.5 qt/lb will land me right in the zone around 153. You can then adjust from there.

I tried a 122 rest for a 50% wheat beer and it was torture. Stepping to 1.9 qt/lb I was short 7* and ended up using my heat stick for 10 minutes to heat up the mash. Not fun! A cooler absorbs a lot of heat so it takes more water than you would think to do a step infusion in one. I allow an extra 20% for decoctions or step infusions over what BeerSmith says and that usually gets me really close.

You can always cheat and scoop out the grains into your boiling pot, heat them up a few degrees over your target, move them back to the cooler, and then infuse some boiling water until you get back up to your sacc rest temp. I will do this next time I do my Wit.
Click to expand...

I've heard others mention this technique including an award winning master level BJCP judge whom does something similar. My question is what would be wrong with simply draining out the wort into a boiler and heating the whole or at least 60-70% of the wort volume. This could be done with the lid remaining on the cooler keeping heat retention to a maximum, then the wort could be heated to approx. 160 and put back in the cooler. This just seems that it would be an "easier" way of executing this process... am I wrong?

Schlante,
Phillip
 
MVKTR2 said:
I've heard others mention this technique including an award winning master level BJCP judge whom does something similar. My question is what would be wrong with simply draining out the wort into a boiler and heating the whole or at least 60-70% of the wort volume. This could be done with the lid remaining on the cooler keeping heat retention to a maximum, then the wort could be heated to approx. 160 and put back in the cooler. This just seems that it would be an "easier" way of executing this process... am I wrong?

Schlante,
Phillip
Click to expand...

That would expose the grain bed to too much oxygen.
 
You can also consider mashing in your kettle using the "Brew In A Bag" approach.
That will let you direct fire.

On my Helles, even with direct fire, I go from about 1qt/lb to almost 2qt/lb as I go up the rest ladder. As someone else mentioned, that allows the enzymes at each stage to work in favorable conditions.

Also, keep your PR under 10 or 15 minutes.
With modern malts a long rest will break the proteins too far and affect head retention.
 

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