Question Regarding Hefeweizen I brewed today

[Daddyboul]

Hey all, I am new to the fourm and experienced a few things that I haven't experienced yet while brewing a hefeweizen today. The first thing I experienced was really low efficiency (~50%); which from what I have read may have to do with the mill job, but I work at my local LHBS so I was the dude that milled it. But anyway I'm going off-topic; this was also the first brew I did with a step mash. I had a ferulic acid rest(113) for 15, and a protein rest(133) for 30, and while the protein rest was going on I did a decoction with about 33% of my grain and water. I finished with a 45-minute mash(150) followed by a dunk sparge into 170-degree water.

The first question was that my cooled wort had massive amounts of proteins floating around as if I accidentally threw 5 whirlfloc tablets into it, but I didn't use any whirlfloc, so I was wondering if the protein rest is responsible for this whirlfloc like affect? My second question is could any of these steps have affected my efficiency at all? Because admittingly the wheat still looked pretty crushed to me after the fact so I find it hard to believe that could be the cause of the low OG issue. I've also brewed on this same setup at least 20 times and have had great results, the only difference this time was the high wheat bill and the fact that I didn't do a single infusion the way I normally do, so I feel the need to ask if any of those steps could mess up starch extraction.

It was BIAB and the grain bill was:
6# pale wheat
2# barke munich
2# pils
All weyermann

 

[day_trippr]

Was this your first brew of any kind with a high percentage of wheat? I think the "ropiness" is kinda built in with high wheat beers.

Anyway, if you didn't change the mill gap between the barley and the wheat, that's an efficiency hit right there.
I run a .032" gap for barley, but a .020" gap for wheat (and malted oats and even rye)...

Cheers!

ps: Welcome to the Home Brew Talk forums!

 

[Bassman2003]

Tough to say what the problem was. I can only give you suggestions for the next wheat beer - skip the protein rest and skip the decoction. Get the beer brewed with what you normally do then move on to the mash techniques. Wheat beers can be tricky on different systems. I prefer the high percentage of wheat malt as well. I do the acid rest and jump to the beta range with one large infusion. I also run just the wheat through my mill twice. So I mill all of the wheat, swap buckets, pour the rest of the grain in the hopper and add the milled wheat in for a 2nd run through.

Decoction seems like a skill and system dependent. Cool if you want to do it but it appears to me that it would have a few failures built in before it was running smoothly.

 

[Daddyboul]

Was this your first brew of any kind with a high percentage of wheat? I think the "ropiness" is kinda built in with high wheat beers.

Anyway, if you didn't change the mill gap between the barley and the wheat, that's an efficiency hit right there.
I run a .032" gap for barley, but a .020" gap for wheat (and malted oats and even rye)...

Cheers!

ps: Welcome to the Home Brew Talk forums!

Appreciate the warm welcome.

It was my first brew with this much wheat. I've done a few hefeweizen's years ago but they were all extract so they went pretty standard. I, unfortunately, didn't change the mill gap, and I'm also not 100% sure what my boss has it set to(ill have to ask), I imagine he has it set somewhere in the middle but am not sure. In the future do you think double milling the wheat could help? I've had customers ask me to double-mill their grains before, it just didn't cross my mind when I milled mine to do the same.

 

[Daddyboul]

Tough to say what the problem was. I can only give you suggestions for the next wheat beer - skip the protein rest and skip the decoction. Get the beer brewed with what you normally do then move on to the mash techniques. Wheat beers can be tricky on different systems. I prefer the high percentage of wheat malt as well. I do the acid rest and jump to the beta range with one large infusion. I also run just the wheat through my mill twice. So I mill all of the wheat, swap buckets, pour the rest of the grain in the hopper and add the milled wheat in for a 2nd run through.

Decoction seems like a skill and system dependent. Cool if you want to do it but it appears to me that it would have a few failures built in before it was running smoothly.

Good to know, I'll definitely double-mill my wheat in the future(also I posted the above response before seeing this message so didn't mean to ask if I should double-mill after you already mentioned double milling). And I think you are 100% correct about skipping the protein rest and decoction, I assumed that because my other beer styles were figured out that I could jump right to a hefe with a multi-step mash and decoction. Will continue with the hefes and try to get the system dialed in.

 

[Bassman2003]

Sounds like a plan. I like playing the long game with homebrewing. Do a little, learn a little. There is always another batch around the corner. Hefe is one of my favorite styles. Keep the pH up the 5.6 - 5.8 range until 15 left in the boil, then drop it down to 5.1 and spend a little more time in beta, alpha and mashout than you usually do. Longer rest times help make the beer more fermentable as you do not want too thick of a beer.

I do :
20 min 111F
20 min in low beta 144F
30 min in high beta 148/149F
35-40 in Alpha 161
20 min in Mashout (Glycoprotein rest) 170

It is a longer mash but worth it imho. I also brew low oxygen which really brings this beer style to life with awesome aroma and bright flavors. Then there is sauergut which adds to the flavor complexity. So much to this style!

 

[pvtpublic]

Don't forget rice hulls!

 

[DilsmackDude]

Daddyboul I'm still interested in hearing if you fixed your problem. I have tried a couple batches using Skagit Valley Soft White Wheat, and have had very low OG, also around 50%. Both recipes were 60% wheat.
so I ran a couple experiments. I had always used PPG as a guage, so if White wheat is rated at 40 PPG then I should be able to mash two pounds of grain in two gallons of water at 122ºf for 15 minutes then 152ºf for 40 minutes and get somewhere around 30 points for 75% efficiency right? Well I tried it that way, and got 20 gravity points.... then realized it's probably not the right way to go about it with that high of a water to grist ratio.
At this point I had heard about lowering the grain mill gap, so I tried another experiment with 2 quarts per pound, 5 lbs of the wheat and went straight to 152ºf for 60 minutes. This time I set the grain mill to .032", which previous to reading this post I heard was the minimum, and ran it twice. After mashing I dilluted to 5 gallons for a 1:1 lbs per gallon PPG check, it was the same at 20 gravity points.
What do you guys think? flawed experiments, too many variables, just need to lower the mill to .020"?

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, aside from the mostly wheat beers I brew I regularly add a couple of pounds of white wheat malt to my new england ipas and even west coast ipas for head formation and retention and the difference in kernel size is quite significant, enough to require the much tighter mill gap to maximize extract. I learned that on my very first wheat beer brew when I milled wheat and barley together with the gap set for barley - and missed the OG by an imperial crapton

Cheers!

 

[beersk]

Appreciate the warm welcome.

It was my first brew with this much wheat. I've done a few hefeweizen's years ago but they were all extract so they went pretty standard. I, unfortunately, didn't change the mill gap, and I'm also not 100% sure what my boss has it set to(ill have to ask), I imagine he has it set somewhere in the middle but am not sure. In the future do you think double milling the wheat could help? I've had customers ask me to double-mill their grains before, it just didn't cross my mind when I milled mine to do the same.

Anymore, I brew my hefeweizens with DME as I don't get the flavor I want from all grain. I don't have the ability to do a ferulic acid rest and that DOES give the flavor I'm after; that wonderful clove. That comes from yeast too, but the ferulic acid rest is how it actually becomes prominent. Normally I just get like a phenolic flavor with bubblegum and apple esters with a little banana. And yes, I've brewed with almost all of the hefe yeasts at all the temperatures and pitch rates. It's not that. Ferulic acid rest is the key. And I'm quite sure they do one when they produce the wheat DME because whenever I brew with DME, I get ALL of those flavors that I want.

 

[Daddyboul]

Daddyboul I'm still interested in hearing if you fixed your problem. I have tried a couple batches using Skagit Valley Soft White Wheat, and have had very low OG, also around 50%. Both recipes were 60% wheat.
so I ran a couple experiments. I had always used PPG as a guage, so if White wheat is rated at 40 PPG then I should be able to mash two pounds of grain in two gallons of water at 122ºf for 15 minutes then 152ºf for 40 minutes and get somewhere around 30 points for 75% efficiency right? Well I tried it that way, and got 20 gravity points.... then realized it's probably not the right way to go about it with that high of a water to grist ratio.
At this point I had heard about lowering the grain mill gap, so I tried another experiment with 2 quarts per pound, 5 lbs of the wheat and went straight to 152ºf for 60 minutes. This time I set the grain mill to .032", which previous to reading this post I heard was the minimum, and ran it twice. After mashing I dilluted to 5 gallons for a 1:1 lbs per gallon PPG check, it was the same at 20 gravity points.
What do you guys think? flawed experiments, too many variables, just need to lower the mill to .020"?

I haven't brewed a wheat-heavy beer since. I think the gap had something to do with it, but it seems to be caused by multiple factors. Especially because when I ran wheat through the mill last time I did a visual inspection, and they were def cracked. I think I took a big hit from not draining the bag enough too(I do BIAB), but wheat sucks up a lot more water than barley and I think I left too much of the sweet water in the bag which took a hit out of my OG. I've also started doing a dunk sparge after my mash, I just heat up 2 gallons of water to 173 ish and then dunk the bag into the hotter water for about 10 minutes. I've gotten on average 8% more efficiency from my brews, and you can visually see the sugar leaving the bag when it hits the hotter water, which also makes the bag drain a lot quicker. Next time I brew a wheat I'll report back here and let you know if that fixes my OG issues with wheat, ill have a feeling it might.

 

[doug293cz]

so I ran a couple experiments. I had always used PPG as a guage, so if White wheat is rated at 40 PPG then I should be able to mash two pounds of grain in two gallons of water at 122ºf for 15 minutes then 152ºf for 40 minutes and get somewhere around 30 points for 75% efficiency right? Well I tried it that way, and got 20 gravity points.... then realized it's probably not the right way to go about it with that high of a water to grist ratio.

Couple of flaws with this experiment. First, the PPG potential is usually given on a dry basis for grains, but the grains typically contain about 4% moisture. Thus the "as-is" potential is only about 96% of the stated potential. In this case that would be: 40 * 0.96 = 38.4 PPG.

The second mistake is using water volume rather than wort volume. The definition of PPG is how many max gravity points 1 pound of grain can create in 1 gallon of wort. This is not the same as mashing in 1 gal of water, since the wort volume is made up of the water volume plus the extract volume. (Wort volume is greater than strike water volume.)

In this case if you mash 2 lb of 40 PPG (dry basis), with a 4% moisture content, in 2 gal of water, and get 100% conversion, the wort volume will be 2.12 gal, and the wort SG will be 1.0362, rather than 1.0384. To get 2 gal of wort with the same grain, you need to mash with 1.875 gal of water, and at 100% conversion the SG comes out to be the expected 1.0384.

At this point I had heard about lowering the grain mill gap, so I tried another experiment with 2 quarts per pound, 5 lbs of the wheat and went straight to 152ºf for 60 minutes. This time I set the grain mill to .032", which previous to reading this post I heard was the minimum, and ran it twice. After mashing I dilluted to 5 gallons for a 1:1 lbs per gallon PPG check, it was the same at 20 gravity points.
What do you guys think? flawed experiments, too many variables, just need to lower the mill to .020"?

This experiment also has two flaws. The first is the same as the first in the first experiment: failure to account for the moisture content of the grain.

The second is different than in the first experiment. You attempted to work with wort volumes, as you should, but you didn't compensate for the wort volume retained by the spent grain, so you lost some of the extract to grain absorption and your final diluted wort SG came out lower than it would have if there were no grain absorption.

Despite the flaws in the experiments, the SG of the wort is much less than it would have been at 100% conversion. This is most likely due to the crush of the wheat malt being too coarse, and not getting 100% conversion during the mash. A finer crush is the easiest way to get better conversion percentage, but longer mashes can also increase conversion percentage (at least until all of the enzymes are denatured.)

Brew on