Diagnosing a cidery beer

I tried a bottle of homebrew after 2 weeks in the bottle. Overall the flavor is pleasant, although there is what I perceive to be a cidery element which I'd like to diagnose. After reading a lot about cider off-flavors I've picked out some of the potential problems:

1) Use of 7% cane sugar in the grist. It seems there's disagreement on this issue, as some Belgians have up to 20% sugar. I used it to dry the beer, put it in the late boil. I've had similar amounts in other beers without the same problem.
2) Good temps through the first few days, high temps later. I had it at 65 (ambient) or so for the first few days, then let it ramp up to ambient 80. This is California Ale yeast. I thought that temperature is critical in the first few days, but less after. However, high temps are supposed to be particularly bad for wort with cane sugar.
3) High bottle-conditioning temps. Ambient temp in the house is 80. Again, I was under the impression that temperature was less important for bottle conditioning (at least with respect to off-flavors).
4) Green. The beer fermented for 3 weeks before bottling, then 2 weeks after. It is possible the beer is still "young", but I doubt it, especially since it's a 5.5% ABV beer.
5) Spoiled. I'm doubtful this is the problem.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

I would think allowing it to ramp up to 80F during the first day or so in the primary would produce a fruitiness that could be interpreted as cidery, but I have to ask, what was your hop schedule?

I've found that most "sweet" brews are mostly underhopped.

Anyone else like to contribute?

homebrewer_99 said:

I would think allowing it to ramp up to 80F during the first day or so in the primary would produce a fruitiness that could be interpreted as cidery, but I have to ask, what was your hop schedule?

I've found that most "sweet" brews are mostly underhopped.

Anyone else like to contribute?

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To clarify, it didn't leave the mid-60s until day 4 or 5. The beer was also around 60 IBUs (with sufficient late additions), so I doubt the hoppiness is the culprit.

Without tasting it I can only suspect fermentation temp. That sounds like it is out of range for that yeast; though you're right that only the first few days are crucial and carbonation temp won't affect this.. I really think the whole 'sugar makes things cidery' thing is blown out of whack, a real misguided fear.

Let it sit for a few more days, and share it with some other brewers if you can, they help to confirm the off flavours.

gyllstromk said:

To clarify, it didn't leave the mid-60s until day 4 or 5. The beer was also around 60 IBUs (with sufficient late additions), so I doubt the hoppiness is the culprit.

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OK, I can see that the temp wasn't the culprit and you mention late additions of hops, but nothing about the bittering hop schedule.

Maybe I'm just oversimplifying it and it is cidery.

"Green apple" flavor sometimes is perceived as cidery. If it's that kind of cidery, that's simply young beer and it will get better.

I want to mention though that mid-60s for room temperature might be too high. What I mean is this- fermentation is exothermic, giving off heat. It's not uncommon that the temperature inside the fermenter is 10 degrees warmer. So, if your room temperature was 67 degrees, it could have easily been 77 in the fermenter. The room temperature is not what we talk about when we talk about "ferment at 68 degrees". We're talking about the actual temperature of the beer. If you have a stick on thermometer (like an aquarium thermometer), those are pretty accurate. If your room temperature went from mid 60s to 80, then your beer temperature could have been much higher than you planned.

As a result of high fermentation temperatures, you could get a cidery taste, or a very fruity taste along with some "hot" alcohols.

2 weeks in the bottle? Could just still be green beer.

Did you add any cider to it?
































JK

Infection. It won't go away. Your searches will tell you differently, i.e., too much simple sugars, but you had a slip in sanitation and it is biting you.

I have two like this (IRA and a barleywine) that I am aging, but I don't think the nasty cider will go away. And, once it gets in your nose, you are disgusted. Sorry for the bad news. I am normally a RDWHAHB guy, but this is my reality, and likely yours.

BTW, if you get an urge to slice up a dirty beet (yep) and throw it into your cooling beer, think twice.

Revvy would tell you not to diagnose an off flavor until at least 6 weeks in the bottle. I tend to agree.

passedpawn said:

Infection. It won't go away. Your searches will tell you differently, i.e., too much simple sugars, but you had a slip in sanitation and it is biting you.

I have two like this (IRA and a barleywine) that I am aging, but I don't think the nasty cider will go away. And, once it gets in your nose, you are disgusted. Sorry for the bad news. I am normally a RDWHAHB guy, but this is my reality, and likely yours.

BTW, if you get an urge to slice up a dirty beet (yep) and throw it into your cooling beer, think twice.

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I'm thinking you might be right. I tasted the beer before bottling and it was actually better than after 3 weeks in the bottle.

But, your conviction is surprising! I suppose cidery-to-the-point-of-complaint is an indicator that it's pretty severe, and therefore due to infection?

Wait another 3 weeks.

From fermentarium:

My beer tastes like green apples (acetaldehyde)

Green apples are great, but pretty crappy in beers. If your beer has the flavor or aroma of green apples, this flavor is usually caused by acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde, sometimes called ethanal, is formed by the yeast before the Glucose is converted to alcohol.

Glucose -> pyruvic acid -> acetaldehyde -> ethanol

Since acetaldehyde is an intermediate step, usually “green” beers have this off-flavor.

The green apple flavor means the fermentation process halted before completion. This could be caused by pitching into wort with too little oxygen, not pitching the correct amount of yeast, or just racking your beer too early. If you haven’t already racked and kegged/bottled the beer, the solution is to warm up the fermenter a bit so the yeast can “finish the job”.

Apples are great, but green apples are sour and suck in beer.

Some literature and several books state adding too much cane or corn sugar will give beers a cidery flavor. It’s more likely the wort was nitrogen-deficient, oxygen deficient, or missing something else the yeast needed to complete the fermentaion. Many Belgian beers use sugar to lighten the body of the beer. I haven’t come across too many unintentionally cidery Belgian beers.

The reason many cite sugar as the culprit is table sugar is sucrose, a sugar which yeast cannot easily ferment. Sucrose (table sugar) however breaks into fructose and glucose, both easily fermented by yeast. Heat and acid (your wort) will easily break the bond of this disaccharide.

Green apple beers are usually “green beers”
Acetaldehyde is the compound usually associated with hangovers
Sugar isn’t usually the cause of cidery beer
Pitch proper amounts of yeast at a cooler fermentation temperature to avoid “green apples”

Time can fix this problem

-TH- said:

Wait another 3 weeks.
Time can fix this problem[/I]

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I do hope you're right. However, I am really in doubt on this one. I will give my cidersmeller till the end of the year. If it still exists, I will truly have conviction on this one!

FYI, 5 weeks in the fermenter, 3 weeks in the bottle, when I last tasted it. I am 99% sure that this is an infection caused by a unsanitized beet (that is a different story). In the Barleywine, if the cider subsides some, the big taste of the beer and high ABV might mask it. The IRA seems hopeless.

Anyhoo, I know I will be accused of early diagnosis of these problems. Hope I am wrong. I will wait; my pipeline is full.

It's definitely acetyldehyde. My first couple of beers had this flavor. But I was taught in the school of "once the airlock stops moving, it's time to bottle philosophy" so I used to rack the beer off the yeast cake much too soon. Aging will definitely help as the yeast left in your beer will continue to process this nasty chemical, but my first beer never completely got over the flavor even after 2 months. It all depends on how cidery it really is.

Green apples are great, but pretty crappy in beers. If your beer has the flavor or aroma of green apples, this flavor is usually caused by acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde, sometimes called ethanal, is formed by the yeast before the Glucose is converted to alcohol.

Glucose -> pyruvic acid -> acetaldehyde -> ethanol

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That's extremely interesting. I always thought acetyldehyde was just a byproduct of yeast activity. I had no idea it was actually part of the glucose to ethanol conversion. Good stuff.

passedpawn said:

I do hope you're right. However, I am really in doubt on this one. I will give my cidersmeller till the end of the year. If it still exists, I will truly have conviction on this one!

FYI, 5 weeks in the fermenter, 3 weeks in the bottle, when I last tasted it. I am 99% sure that this is an infection caused by a unsanitized beet (that is a different story). In the Barleywine, if the cider subsides some, the big taste of the beer and high ABV might mask it. The IRA seems hopeless.

Anyhoo, I know I will be accused of early diagnosis of these problems. Hope I am wrong. I will wait; my pipeline is full.

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To your point, I do have one counterargument: my beer is cidery but not in any harsh way. You mentioned a gagging reaction to the beer. It is certainly not as extreme here. Just smells a bit appley and tastes a bit thin.

gyllstromk said:

To your point, I do have one counterargument: my beer is cidery but not in any harsh way. You mentioned a gagging reaction to the beer. It is certainly not as extreme here. Just smells a bit appley and tastes a bit thin.

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Well then, I wish us both luck. I am not a noob, but I still have a lot to learn and experience, and I might be all wrong. I did come on too strong with my prognostications for your beer. Sorry about that.

UPDATE: To recap, an IRA I made was quite cidery at bottling time, which was AUG 22. This was after a 6-week primary fermentation.

I tasted one today and the cidery taste is almost completely gone. Very faint perhaps, but I am really looking for it. However, the beer is very thin and not too tasty. This last criticism it likely a recipe problem, though.

Moral of the story: I was wrong with my posts above. But someone around here has to keep proving Revvy right, and I accept that duty with aplomb. Oh, and this means great things for my barleywine with the same problem... it's bottled and boxed in a closet for Christmas.

[EDIT] Explanation of thin taste: I just checked my notes from that brewday. When sparging, I accidentally lost about a gallon of the first runnings. Since this was designed as 1.050 beer, I ended up at only 1.040. Ended up under 4%.

Well, I'm glad you identified the problem on the lighter beer, and the bigger one is coming out well.
Maybe what you where tasting is what most people who make mead, or strong ciders refer to as a "hot" taste.
To me it taste like slightly diluted kerosene (don't ask how I know). Time will get rid of it and you will have some great beer.

Another update. I tasted my barleywine, which was revolting with cider taste, and the cider taste is completely gone. Weird.

Lesson learned.

Just found this thread. This is very reassuring. I have a barleywine in an oak barrel that smells like cider.

I had a brown ale that had this and it never went away ended up dumping it after 3 months in the keg. Never got better. No infection present that I could see either. Very disappointing.

So I brewed a wheat beer that had a winey/ cidery taste. It's currently week 2 in primary. The taste is actually not totally unpleasant. Im debating about throwing it into a secondary with some fruit and calling it a lambic.

What do you guys think? Should I just let it sit or do the fruit thing?

drkaeppel said:

So I brewed a wheat beer that had a winey/ cidery taste. It's currently week 2 in primary. The taste is actually not totally unpleasant. Im debating about throwing it into a secondary with some fruit and calling it a lambic.

What do you guys think? Should I just let it sit or do the fruit thing?

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I think you should give another week or two. I'm not gonna say it will get better, but I'd sure as heck not throw in the towel that early.