Hopbursting, Hop stand, and bitterness

I just got a chance to finally taste my carbed-up coffee IPA. I was trying to get close to Dayman so I targeted around 43 IBU with a huge Cascade/Citra hop burst and a big hop stand of the same at flameout.

The flameout hops were set to "Aroma Steep" so Beersmith didn't calculate any bitterness from them. But man, there is way more than 43 IBU in there. I'm convinced that the flameout hops contributed a fair amount of bitterness during the hop stand. Also I'm convinced that since I didn't do any additions before 20 minutes, the hops that were already in there from the 20 minute addition continued to contribute bitterness during the hop stand even though the heat was off.

Is there any rule for calculating bitterness from flameout hops and continued bittering from late additions during a hop stand? Or any better way to get them in Beersmith in order to get a more accurate calculation? Or maybe I am doing the hop stand wrong?

There is always trial and error, I guess...

Hops isomerize at temps below boiling. I forgot what temps but I think they go as low as 140 (I could be wrong on the exact number but you can research it on the web). Isomerization is what adds bitterness so if you are letting the hops steep at near boiling then you are getting bitterness. Keep in mind that the rest of your hop additions are still isomerizing during this time as well so that's probably why it came out extra bitter.

What temp are you steeping at? If you are hopbursting just skip the steep since hopbursting provides a great deal of aroma and flavor as it is. IMO you should chill as fast as possible after flame out to prevent isomerization so that you can "lock in" the flavor and aroma. It you don't chill fast that flavor and aroma will be lost and replaced by bitterness.

It could be polyphenols from the hops that can contribute to the "perceived" bitterness. They don't add actual IBU's, but it tastes like they did. You can get this during dry hoping as well. The polyphenol levels vary from hop to hop, and unfortunately there is no convenient source for that data that I have seen.

Hops isomerize at temps above 170, but this is very tricky to calculate. I think Mitch Steele's IPA book has some info on it, but you can definitely get significant bittering from hop stands/hop backs if your whirlpool is held above 170 for a long period. A lot of brewers, however, prefer this, and only do small bittering additions early in the boil and then large additions late to achieve their total IBU count.

Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!

bmick said:

Hops isomerize at temps above 170, but this is very tricky to calculate. I think Mitch Steele's IPA book has some info on it, but you can definitely get significant bittering from hop stands/hop backs if your whirlpool is held above 170 for a long period. A lot of brewers, however, prefer this, and only do small bittering additions early in the boil and then large additions late to achieve their total IBU count.

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This is what I do with my APA recipe. I only need 0.6oz of bittering hops for an 11 gallon batch and then the 3oz at 15min and 4oz whirlpool definitely shoot the bitterness up to the targeted 35.

chocotaco said:

Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!

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LOL I logged on a few minutes ago just to say the same thing

They use a 194 deg F as the steep/whirlpool temp from what I can tell. I liked where it put my numbers for my HT clone

the past 8 beers i brewed got not hop additions at all during the 60 minute boil. the first addition is at flame out and they go from there out to 25-30 minutes. 4 of the kegs are gone and were, to me, indistinguishable from any other beer i've brewed in bitterness. the aroma and flavor of the hops, i claim, are more intense. i put a lid on the keggle after each addition. since the hops are never boiled i wonder if the aroma/flavor compounds stay in the beer better? i'm no scientist so i have no idea but it is more intense to my senses.

IBU calculations are truly semi flawed models. You really need to trust your taste and work from there. When brewsmith calculates 90 Tinseth IBUs and 57 Rager IBUs... You can't go with either! Brew enough and the bitterness you perceive will be a guide. IMHO.

chocotaco said:

Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!

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When someone actually figures out what the IBU addition is, then I guess they will add it. I don't know that anyone really knows the effect. I would even guess (I don't know) that the BeerSmith numbers are only an estimate, and not based on empirical data.

stevedasleeve said:

IBU calculations are truly semi flawed models. You really need to trust your taste and work from there. When brewsmith calculates 90 Tinseth IBUs and 57 Rager IBUs... You can't go with either! Brew enough and the bitterness you perceive will be a guide. IMHO.

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The Rager, Tinseth, and Garetz models are the only ones that are currently available, and are the best that we have. They are all based on data, but I guess the amount of data is limited. I generally switch between Rager and Tinseth, depending on whether I am bittering early or hop bursting; I find Tinseth greatly over-estimates the IBUs from late hops.

You need to find what seems to work for you and use that.

IL1kebeer said:

IMO you should chill as fast as possible after flame out to prevent isomerization so that you can "lock in" the flavor and aroma. It you don't chill fast that flavor and aroma will be lost and replaced by bitterness.

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I'm not sure that I agree with this from my experience. I brewed an IPA that was heavily hopped after flame out in two separate additions and it has off the charts hop aroma and flavor. I think i let them stand for about an hour as well. Bitterness is not overpowering either.

IL1kebeer said:

IMO you should chill as fast as possible after flame out to prevent isomerization so that you can "lock in" the flavor and aroma. It you don't chill fast that flavor and aroma will be lost and replaced by bitterness.

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brewmeister13 said:

I'm not sure that I agree with this from my experience. I brewed an IPA that was heavily hopped after flame out in two separate additions and it has off the charts hop aroma and flavor. I think i let them stand for about an hour as well. Bitterness is not overpowering either.

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I think it depends on what you like, and how fast you will drink it up. Hopbursting adds a lot of aroma and flavor to a beer, but the downside to this method that that those glorious aromas and flavors tend to fade quickly - so drink fast!

Now if your IPA is going to be around for a while, then adding hops while still boiling and then quick chilling might be for you. It is a bit harder to really get tons of aroma and flavor, BUT, it seems as though the extra high heat somehow stabilizes the aroma and flavor so it does not fade as quickly

pjj2ba said:

I think it depends on what you like, and how fast you will drink it up. Hopbursting adds a lot of aroma and flavor to a beer, but the downside to this method that that those glorious aromas and flavors tend to fade quickly - so drink fast!

Now if your IPA is going to be around for a while, then adding hops while still boiling and then quick chilling might be for you. It is a bit harder to really get tons of aroma and flavor, BUT, it seems as though the extra high heat somehow stabilizes the aroma and flavor so it does not fade as quickly

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my experience has been the opposite, much longer lasting flavor and aroma from hops that are not boiled at all. of course this is only one sample so i hope many others try this out and note their experiences here to see if there is a pattern in either direction.

#1 thing you can do to help your IPA retain that "fresh" flavor is proper refrigeration in my opinion. The afore mentioned batch of mine was great right after it was carbed, but after about a month of sitting at around 70F and aging it had lost that special quality that made it so good. I ended up finding one that had been placed in the fridge after carbonating and never removed. After 2 months it tasted nearly identically to the fresh batch and not so much like the others in a side by side comparison.

Long story short, if you can refrigerate your beer to help preserve the flavors.

brewmeister13 said:

#1 thing you can do to help your IPA retain that "fresh" flavor is proper refrigeration in my opinion. The afore mentioned batch of mine was great right after it was carbed, but after about a month of sitting at around 70F and aging it had lost that special quality that made it so good. I ended up finding one that had been placed in the fridge after carbonating and never removed. After 2 months it tasted nearly identically to the fresh batch and not so much like the others in a side by side comparison.

Long story short, if you can refrigerate your beer to help preserve the flavors.

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that's one of the reasons russian river beer is not available everywhere, they want to make sure the beer is keep cold from the brewery to the consumer's glass. their famously hoppy beer would be a different beer if it was kept in some warm warehouse. i think they even have some kind of contract enforcing this keep cold rule.