Sour Scourge!

Hi All,

I joined this forum to get some feedback about my home brewing. I've been brewing extract beers for almost 3 years with great success, that is, until the recent round of sours.

Sour #1 - Porter
Cracked into the first bottle and it was sour, kind of the vinegar variety but not terribly bad. The color is totally off, very light brown even though it should be nice and black. The carbonation never took, even after months in the bottles. I pour them into the glass and they are dead flat.

Actions taken: I blamed the bottling equipment and replaced it all.

Sour #2 - Brown Ale
Same symptoms of the Porter, but this time I noticed it in the secondary carboy, before bottling. So much for the bottling equipment hypothesis. The problem is in the glass carboys themselves! (or something that touches the beer before they go into those carboys).

Actions taken: all plastic stuff tossed and replaced, glass carboys soaked in bleach and rinsed many rounds with boiled/sanitized water.

Sour #3 - Bourbon Stout

This time I'm using BRAND NEW glass carboys and brand new everything else. Still sour. The old carboys that were rinsed with bleach were employed for a beer at a brew club far away from my infected home. The beer made at the club turned out just fine.

What can I conclude now? I'm running out of suspects for these infections, but here they are:

-Wort immersion chiller, I drop it in the boil 15 minutes before flame out and I dip it in starsan before that.
-Tap water. My detachable faucet head has a plastic piece on it and I pour tap water directly into the carboy before I dump in the 3+ gallons of wort. This faucet could be causing my problems, or maybe the water itself?
-Closet. My closet is full of clothes and extra blankets, not too far from where my beer sits to ferment. Is this closet a breeding ground for wild sour yeast?

Thanks for reading!

I found a pic online that looks very similar to my faucet. I'm thinking I'll be picking up some bottled water for my next brew for sure.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/projects/faucet/faucet.htm

Did you see any kind of pellicle on these beers? Any idea what your fermentation temp is? I'm wondering if you're not just tasting a too warm ferment? I'd also think about trying to eliminate tap water (or boiling a batch the previous day) as a potential vector.

How are you preparing your yeast? Could you be making infected starters?

my first suggestion would be to sanitize the tap water (by boiling) prior to adding it to the carboy. second would be to replace whatever hose/funnel you use to transfer the wort into the carboy (unless that's what you meant by all plastic stuff replaced). would have to know more detail about your process to suggest much else.

IMHO, most of the time it's your bottling equipment. Are you using a bottling bucket with a spigot? If so, do you take it apart every time you use it? Also, look at your autosphion and tubing.

It sounds like you've already done that, so I'd say you need to boil your tap water before adding it to the carboy.

I always think that if you are topping off, using bottled water is safest. You can use distilled water or RO. Are you on well water or city water?

My yeast is prepped with meticulous santitization, are rehydrated as Mr. Palmer describes, I use S-05.

My temps are always carefully controlled, I dump the beer around 70 degrees (through a brand new funnel) and ferment around 65 degrees.

To repeat from my original post - for the last beer I made, absolutely everything that touched the beer was brand new, disassembled, and soaked in star san. Well, the exception being the brew pot and the wort chiller.

It looks like the only thing I can do is quit using water straight from the tap, but what about the closet? I'm still feeling like I might have a magic sour closet given the ridiculous extent that I've tried to control everything else, but for sure I'll keep the water in check for the next brew.

As far as the pellicle, it doesn't look too crazy to me. The bubbles can get big and they seem a little sticky. This is from the last sour beer I made, in the primary.

I'm using city tap water. I'll will definitely not put tap water directly into the beer from now on. All of the other suggestions are not a concern - my last beer was brewed with entirely new equipment, disassembled, soaked in start san, and my yeast rehydration (s-05) and my temperature control is very meticulous.

We are looking at bad water or bad "magic sour closet" I guess?

Oh, that krausen that you see in the pics hangs around for nearly 3 and a half weeks. Not a very quick fermentation at all. I should probably get it up to 68, my cooler can get pretty low, as low as 60 when I'm chilling it with the frozen water bottles.

Do you have a brew kettle with a ball valve? The ball valves need to be disassembled and cleaned periodically. I'm just throwing that suggestion to the wind.

If you are adding tap water to your wort, you have to be really sure that the water is clean. others are right, you need to boil the water before you use it just to be safe.

im not sure where you are from, but the water chemistry of your tap water (especially without a boil) can be way off for the sours you are trying to make. The Chlorine/chloramine level could be way too high for whatever yeast you are using. is you are using bacteria especially, you can get some very off flavors if your water is right.

What yeast are you using? what temperature are you fermenting at? how are you controlling that temperature?

most importantly, are you getting a complete fermentation? what is your OG and FG? What did you predict them to be?

anticrapple said:

If you are adding tap water to your wort, you have to be really sure that the water is clean. others are right, you need to boil the water before you use it just to be safe.

im not sure where you are from, but the water chemistry of your tap water (especially without a boil) can be way off for the sours you are trying to make. The Chlorine/chloramine level could be way too high for whatever yeast you are using. is you are using bacteria especially, you can get some very off flavors if your water is right.

What yeast are you using? what temperature are you fermenting at? how are you controlling that temperature?

most importantly, are you getting a complete fermentation? what is your OG and FG? What did you predict them to be?

Click to expand...

Just as clarification, the OP is not trying to brew sours, the beers are souring on him and he's trying to find out why.

franknbrews said:

Hi All,

I joined this forum to get some feedback about my home brewing. I've been brewing extract beers for almost 3 years with great success, that is, until the recent round of sours.

Sour #1 - Porter
Cracked into the first bottle and it was sour, kind of the vinegar variety but not terribly bad. The color is totally off, very light brown even though it should be nice and black. The carbonation never took, even after months in the bottles. I pour them into the glass and they are dead flat.

Actions taken: I blamed the bottling equipment and replaced it all.

Sour #2 - Brown Ale
Same symptoms of the Porter, but this time I noticed it in the secondary carboy, before bottling. So much for the bottling equipment hypothesis. The problem is in the glass carboys themselves! (or something that touches the beer before they go into those carboys).

Actions taken: all plastic stuff tossed and replaced, glass carboys soaked in bleach and rinsed many rounds with boiled/sanitized water.

Sour #3 - Bourbon Stout

This time I'm using BRAND NEW glass carboys and brand new everything else. Still sour. The old carboys that were rinsed with bleach were employed for a beer at a brew club far away from my infected home. The beer made at the club turned out just fine.

What can I conclude now? I'm running out of suspects for these infections, but here they are:

-Wort immersion chiller, I drop it in the boil 15 minutes before flame out and I dip it in starsan before that.
-Tap water. My detachable faucet head has a plastic piece on it and I pour tap water directly into the carboy before I dump in the 3+ gallons of wort. This faucet could be causing my problems, or maybe the water itself?
-Closet. My closet is full of clothes and extra blankets, not too far from where my beer sits to ferment. Is this closet a breeding ground for wild sour yeast?

Thanks for reading!

Click to expand...

The highlighted text indicates the problem. Sours come from bacterial infections and the bacteria that can survive in the beer require oxygen. If your secondary isn't filled all the way to the neck you have too much surface exposed and too little CO2 dissolved in the beer to fill that space. The fast soulution is to quit using secondaries. Very few beers need secondary and the ones you listed definitely do not. Leave your beer in primary until it is completely fermented out and the yeast have dropped, then bottle or keg.

Psylocide said:

Just as clarification, the OP is not trying to brew sours, the beers are souring on him and he's trying to find out why.

Click to expand...

Oh my fault! I didnt even gather that. Im slow this morning. Thanks for catching me Psylocide.

My other dilmena. The bourbon stout is ready to bottle. It is pretty tasty for an accidental sour. So I have to choose between sacrificing all of that new bottling equipment to bottle this beer, or dump the beer. The plastic stuff is close to $60 in value I believe. What would you do - bottle the beer or dump it?

The older sours in my closet have not really improved and they are dead flat. But they are technically beer and they do have alcohol in them and that's not worth nothing. They can sit for years and possibly reveal some surprise improvements along the way?

RM-MN said:

The highlighted text indicates the problem. Sours come from bacterial infections and the bacteria that can survive in the beer require oxygen. If your secondary isn't filled all the way to the neck you have too much surface exposed and too little CO2 dissolved in the beer to fill that space. The fast soulution is to quit using secondaries. Very few beers need secondary and the ones you listed definitely do not. Leave your beer in primary until it is completely fermented out and the yeast have dropped, then bottle or keg.

Click to expand...

My secondary beers always turn out fine, regardless of headspace, but the kicker is that the very first sour beer (the Porter) didn't even use a secondary. Still, I'll skip the secondary for the next beer because why take another risk. The actual source of the problem is not the secondary, though.

Conman13 said:

Do you have a brew kettle with a ball valve? The ball valves need to be disassembled and cleaned periodically. I'm just throwing that suggestion to the wind.

Click to expand...

This is what I was going to ask you and you didn't answer. If you have a valve and you have never cleaned it then that might potentially be a problem.

I would agree with the tap water issues as well. You would want to boil the water you are using to top off (is this a municipal source or from a well?). IMHO, you shouldn't use bottled water for topping off as that industry isn't very well regulated and municipal water has much more stringent standards.

If you actually replaced all of your plastic and there wasn't any cross contamination the that is a bit of a head scratcher.

If your beer is flat, are you re-pitching yeast before bottling?

If the club brew was totally fine then what is different about their processes and cleaning methods versus yours? Might help to have someone experienced come over and take a look at what you are doing

No ball valve. Just a big pot.

I boil up corn sugar for priming, it usually works great for the beers that don't accidentally turn sour. I don't know why this infection turns black beers brown and also is impossible to carbonate, but that's how it works.

I couldn't begin to recount the differences between the club and home, but I'm going to be renewing my club membership, that is for sure. At home, no messing around with unsanitized tap water and I'll see what happens with the next batch.

franknbrews said:

I boil up corn sugar for priming, it usually works great for the beers that don't accidentally turn sour. I don't know why this infection turns black beers brown and also is impossible to carbonate, but that's how it works.

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An infection should not cause your beers to not carbonate in bottles. If anything, infections would more often lead to overcarbonating or even bottle bombs.

Have you seen any visual signs of infections (pellicle in the fermenter or in the bottle)? Can you describe the flavor any more than 'sour'?

The color change is another things that you haven't really talked about previously, but it isn't typically a sign of infection.

BGBC said:

An infection should not cause your beers to not carbonate in bottles. If anything, infections would more often lead to overcarbonating or even bottle bombs.

Have you seen any visual signs of infections (pellicle in the fermenter or in the bottle)? Can you describe the flavor any more than 'sour'?

The color change is another things that you haven't really talked about previously, but it isn't typically a sign of infection.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is what's driving me crazy. No carbonation, no real pellicle to speak of (have a look at the pics on page one), and inappropriate color. Maybe the Extract itself is to blame? I used the same briess DME for all three beers.

The flavor is like the beer should taste (hops and nuttiness coming through) and it smells and tastes a bit like vinegar, but not super overwhelming.

franknbrews said:

Yes, this is what's driving me crazy. No carbonation, no real pellicle to speak of (have a look at the pics on page one), and inappropriate color. Maybe the Extract itself is to blame? I used the same briess DME for all three beers.

The flavor is like the beer should taste (hops and nuttiness coming through) and it smells and tastes a bit like vinegar, but not super overwhelming.

Click to expand...

Ah, a different clue. If you had an infection of acetobacter, the beer would soon become more and more vinegary until it became malt vinegar. Yours doesn't sound like it gets worse. Is that true?

What you might be noticing is acetaldehyde, an intermediate product of fermentation. Most people would call it green apple but some people perceive it as vinegar like. Longer fermentations and/or finishing up the fermentation warmer may solve this. It's also possible to reverse ethanol to acetaldehyde by oxygenating the beer. Here's a short article that tells more about acetaldehyde, how and when it is formed. http://www.winning-homebrew.com/acetaldehyde.html

RM-MN said:

Ah, a different clue. If you had an infection of acetobacter, the beer would soon become more and more vinegary until it became malt vinegar. Yours doesn't sound like it gets worse. Is that true?

What you might be noticing is acetaldehyde, an intermediate product of fermentation. Most people would call it green apple but some people perceive it as vinegar like. Longer fermentations and/or finishing up the fermentation warmer may solve this. It's also possible to reverse ethanol to acetaldehyde by oxygenating the beer. Here's a short article that tells more about acetaldehyde, how and when it is formed. http://www.winning-homebrew.com/acetaldehyde.html

Click to expand...

So far, the beers aren't getting worse, nor better, but thanks for the info! I don't think oxidation is an issue and I usually keep my beers in the primary for 3-4 weeks, 4 weeks always for higher gravity beers. What kills me is that my process has worked for years, this sour issue is brand new, which is why I was thinking infection.

Ugh, now I'm going to go ahead and ruin yet another perfectly good bottling bucket with my bourbon stout tonight. I can't bring myself to dump it. I'm hoping for a beer miracle. I tasted the porter and the brown ale today and at the very least, they aren't getting worse.

At what temperature are you fermenting and are you pitching enough yeast or providing the conditions for them to multiply enough?

RM-MN said:

At what temperature are you fermenting and are you pitching enough yeast or providing the conditions for them to multiply enough?

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These beers ranged from 1.060 to 1.092, in all cases I rehydrated s-05 (two packets) and fermented in the 65 degree range, plus or minus. I never let me ferms get over 70 or below 60, but other than that it's not an exact science in my closet.

RM-MN said:

At what temperature are you fermenting and are you pitching enough yeast or providing the conditions for them to multiply enough?

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Now that I think about it, I am so adamant about chilling that I get the beer down to 70 and then the cold top off water I use (this winter) is pretty damn cold. I pitch the yeast right away and maybe I'm pitching it too cold? The temps obviously stabilize after a day in the 60-70 range, if not sooner, but the yeast could very well have been pitched in a 50-60 degree batch of wort.

Pitching cold wouldn't cause you to have excess acetaldehyde but a colder winter might leave your fermenting area colder than you think and a cold end to the ferment can leave acetaldehyde. Instead of bottling tonight, move your fermenter somewhere warm for another 3 days to a week or more and maybe the yeast will clean it up.

That could also be why your beers aren't carbonating, your storage area may be colder than what you had for previous batches and the yeast just went dormant. You might move those bottles to a warmer area of put some kind of heater where they are for a couple weeks and see if you can wake the yeast up.

That's a good call on the temps.

Also, a 4 week primary is pretty quick for a 1.092 beer. Are you checking your OG to make sure they're all stable before bottling? And even if stable, a high gravity beer would likely benefit from some add'l bulk aging prior to bottling anyway.

How long have the other beers been bottled (the ones that are flat)?

BGBC said:

That's a good call on the temps.

Also, a 4 week primary is pretty quick for a 1.092 beer. Are you checking your OG to make sure they're all stable before bottling? And even if stable, a high gravity beer would likely benefit from some add'l bulk aging prior to bottling anyway.

How long have the other beers been bottled (the ones that are flat)?

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Flat ones were 1.080 and 1.060 respectively and both stabilized nicely in the 1.01x range, both were in primary for around a month and the 1.080 in the secondary for two-three weeks in addition. They've both been in the bottles for two months or longer.

RM-MN said:

Pitching cold wouldn't cause you to have excess acetaldehyde but a colder winter might leave your fermenting area colder than you think and a cold end to the ferment can leave acetaldehyde. Instead of bottling tonight, move your fermenter somewhere warm for another 3 days to a week or more and maybe the yeast will clean it up.

That could also be why your beers aren't carbonating, your storage area may be colder than what you had for previous batches and the yeast just went dormant. You might move those bottles to a warmer area of put some kind of heater where they are for a couple weeks and see if you can wake the yeast up.

Click to expand...

My closet is the fermenter area and the storage area, it is pretty much always 70 degrees even on the coldest days. Good call about holding off on the bottling, the secondary is full to the neck, but there is plenty of bubble action still going so I might as well let that play out for a while.

I cracked another sour porter today and I'm not impressed. I think they are getting worse, more vinegary. I've officially decided that I'd rather spare my bottling equipment than this beer. My plan is to siphon (with my already contaminated siphon) some of the bourbon beer into a handful of 22oz bottles (with corn sugar in them) just for the hell of it and dump the rest. I'd rather move on to a new brew that waste any more bottling equipment and bottles and time bottling a beer that has the same symptoms as the other ill-fated beers in my closet.