How the mash affects fermentation?

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BansheeRider

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My first AG brew was 5 points above expected OG and it fermented past the expected FG by 2 points. What does that say about my mash? Did too much ferment able sugars get released?
 
what was your mash temp? I am guessing that your mash temp was probably lower than what you were trying to hit. the lower your mash temp the more fermentable sugars you get.
 
what was your mash temp? I am guessing that your mash temp was probably lower than what you were trying to hit. the lower your mash temp the more fermentable sugars you get.

Temp started at 153 and dropped to 151 in an hour.
 
2 degrees shouldn't make a difference over 1 hour, what was your efficiency? If your efficiency was higher than what the recipe called for then your OG should be higher, did you use the same yeast as the recipe? What was your temp during fermentation? All of these things are a factor in your gravity readings. I just brewed on friday and ended up 5 points higher in OG and my efficiency was 84% I dont know what the original poster had but I'll see how I like it when it's ready. I personally would not be concerned about a few points one way or the other but that is just me.
 
2 degrees shouldn't make a difference over 1 hour, what was your efficiency? If your efficiency was higher than what the recipe called for then your OG should be higher, did you use the same yeast as the recipe? What was your temp during fermentation? All of these things are a factor in your gravity readings. I just brewed on friday and ended up 5 points higher in OG and my efficiency was 84% I dont know what the original poster had but I'll see how I like it when it's ready. I personally would not be concerned about a few points one way or the other but that is just me.

My efficiency was around 76%. My fermentation temps maintained between 63-66 degrees for 5 days then I raised the temp to 68-70. It's been in primary for a little over 3 weeks now. The recipe is dead ringer ipa from northern brewer.
 
Mmmmm. That was my first every batch but I had the extract version. I've since gone to all grain and would like to try that again. Do you mind posting the AG recipe?

I think once you get your process down(which I have not) you'll be able to tell what small variations can do and how it affects the outcome.
 
BansheeRider said:
My efficiency was around 76%. My fermentation temps maintained between 63-66 degrees for 5 days then I raised the temp to 68-70. It's been in primary for a little over 3 weeks now. The recipe is dead ringer ipa from northern brewer.

I looked up the recipe and the efficiency was not given and neither was a FG, not sure what test you used but for me 1056 almost always ends up at 1.010. Oh and did they crush your grain or them? That may contribute to your higher OG.

Just to be clear, are you concerned about your gravity readings or just looking for some feedback on what you have? I have made a few of the same recipes and have had some OG's higher by a few points and could not tell the difference, now fermentation temps, if they get to high I can usually tell the difference there which is why I'm working on a ferm chamber.
 
I looked up the recipe and the efficiency was not given and neither was a FG, not sure what test you used but for me 1056 almost always ends up at 1.010. Oh and did they crush your grain or them? That may contribute to your higher OG.

Just to be clear, are you concerned about your gravity readings or just looking for some feedback on what you have? I have made a few of the same recipes and have had some OG's higher by a few points and could not tell the difference, now fermentation temps, if they get to high I can usually tell the difference there which is why I'm working on a ferm chamber.

I actually took the recipe and pieced it together at my LHBS. I used their grain mill which provides a decent crush.

I was just wondering what makes the yeast ferment past the expected FG. Beersmith has a FG of 1013. I know it's not a big difference but because this was my first AG batch I'm wondering if the mash has anything to do with yeast attenuation.
 
I would not worry about missing FG by a point or two. Yeast is a living thing. White Labs and Wyeast post their expected attenuation for yeast as a range. I have done BYOs clone of that beer. Wish I had some now.
 
I would not worry about missing FG by a point or two. Yeast is a living thing. White Labs and Wyeast post their expected attenuation for yeast as a range. I have done BYOs clone of that beer. Wish I had some now.

I'm not worried about it and I'm certainly not opposed to having a higher ABV beer. I was just wondering how the mash can affect attenuation. It was mentioned in this thread that lower mash temps result in more fermentable sugars. So would it be safe to say that you will have higher attenuation if mashed at lower temps? What does higher mash temps do to a beer? Maybe I should've been more specific in my OP.
 
I'm not worried about it and I'm certainly not opposed to having a higher ABV beer. I was just wondering how the mash can affect attenuation. It was mentioned in this thread that lower mash temps result in more fermentable sugars. So would it be safe to say that you will have higher attenuation if mashed at lower temps? What does higher mash temps do to a beer? Maybe I should've been more specific in my OP.

There are two enzymes that work on the starches of your grain, beta amylase makes short chain sugars that are quite fermentable and alpha amylase that makes longer chain sugars that are more dextrinous and don't ferment as well but add to the body of the beer. These two enzymes work at different temperature ranges but those ranges overlap so you choose a temperature where they are active in the proportion that you like for your beer, lower temps to get a crisp beer, higher temps for more body. If you mash at 148, your yeast will love the short chain sugars and ferment out more than if you mashed at 156.

The other factor that hasn't been mentioned is how you treat your yeast. I've been mashing at 152 to 156 to get a balance between the sugars and expect my beer to be fully fermented at about 1.014-1.018 but sometimes my yeast get a little more happy with the temperature I ferment at and attenuate much more than that. I'll start the ferment at 60 to 62 (for US-05 for example) and after 5 to 7 days let it warm to 72-74 and my beers nearly always attenuate more than predicted.
 
There are two enzymes that work on the starches of your grain, beta amylase makes short chain sugars that are quite fermentable and alpha amylase that makes longer chain sugars that are more dextrinous and don't ferment as well but add to the body of the beer. These two enzymes work at different temperature ranges but those ranges overlap so you choose a temperature where they are active in the proportion that you like for your beer, lower temps to get a crisp beer, higher temps for more body. If you mash at 148, your yeast will love the short chain sugars and ferment out more than if you mashed at 156.

The other factor that hasn't been mentioned is how you treat your yeast. I've been mashing at 152 to 156 to get a balance between the sugars and expect my beer to be fully fermented at about 1.014-1.018 but sometimes my yeast get a little more happy with the temperature I ferment at and attenuate much more than that. I'll start the ferment at 60 to 62 (for US-05 for example) and after 5 to 7 days let it warm to 72-74 and my beers nearly always attenuate more than predicted.

Thank you great info. I guess that's what people mean when they say that you have more control over the beer when doing AG batches vs extract. I didn't realize slight variations in mash temps could affect the beer drastically.
 
Also, I'm guessing Beersmith calculates the expected attenuation based on the published stats for the yeast. The yeast companies are in the position of estimating what the attenuation will be for a wide range of possible mash temps and ingredients. If you are within 1 or 2 points of the expected range, you are probably right on what the yeast supplier would expect.
 
Four things contribute to conversion and fermentability. Mash thickness, pH, time and temperature. You can throw crush in there, too. A thinner mash converts quicker than a thick mash. But a thick mash preserves enzymes for a longer period of time. Most home brewers use 1-1.5 qts/lb. That is the way the English do it. Germans use 1-3 qts/lb., they have their reasons. A thinner mash increases maltose and wort attenuation. The pH is important. If the pH is out of the optimum pH band of a & b enzyme, they become sluggish. Temperature solubolize and gelatinize starch. There are four enzymes that work on starch conversion. The a & b amylase, maltase and dextrinase. The enzymes don't necessarily make long or short chain sugar. What alpha enzyme does is liquify the starch into carbohydrates and amylose by taking the long chain starch and breaking it apart. The long chain has a reducing end and a non reducing end. Beta amalase can only break down the non reducing ends of the chain. Beta is responsible for forming fermentable maltose. What causes the non fermentability of wort is limit dextrins. The limit dextrins are at the branch "Y" after the amylose is broken down to amylopectin. They are a-limit dextrines. There are b-limit dextrins, too. Alpha enzyme produces maltriose. It is needed in lagers to allow for a long cold aging process. It also, produces some glucose which ferments and the a-limit dextrins that are non fermentatable....You may have had the right mash thickness, pH, temperature and a good crush that allowed a lot of starch to solubolize and gelatinize. Giving the enzymes a lot to work with, creating a higher OG and a lower FG from a lot of maltose and glucose. I don't know if you use iodine to check for conversion. If you do, next time pull out some mash and squeeze out a teaspoon full or more of liquid onto the plate, put a drop of iodine on the liquid. If it turns black, a lot of starch was stuck in the husk, not being converted. Make sure there are no husks in the sample. Husk will turn black regardless. The Germans decoction mash. The method produces higher gravity, more yield and a lower FG. I was a bagger until about 1985 when the company making decent bags went out of business. The method was becoming boring, anyway. By 1987 I burned out as an infuser. Since then, I tri-decoction lager and pils and once in awhile a German ale. Decoction method gives a brewer more control over the final product.
 
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