Help with Chill Haze Please

So I have read and read on chill haze. I would like my beers to be clear and I understand that it is aesthetics, but I still want clear beer.

Every batch of my beer has been clear until it gets cold.

I get a good rolling boil for my boils.

I use whirlfloc in the last 15 mins

I use an immersion chiller and get my wort down to 70 degrees in under 15 mins.

I drain my kettle through a paint strainer to catch most of the big trub.

Many of my beers don't even clear up after 3 weeks @ 40 degrees. It usually takes much longer.

Protein rests seem to be a not great idea because it sounds like most malts are highly modified and do not needs a protein rest.

Is waiting forever or filtering my beer the only options or can I do something with my mash?

Thanks

Gelatin helps drop proteins that cause chill haze

Your process sounds roughly the same as mine and I have crystal clear beers all the time.

So my only thought is that I use Irish moss (this should not make a difference)
How much whirlfloc?


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Any adverse effects for using gelatin?

I use clarity ferm which is an enzyme from white labs and also biofine clear. These greatly help clarify my beers. You could be getting chill haze from improperly sparging. Are you recirculating until the wort looks clear/doesn't have a lot of particles?

I have used Irish moss but not for a long time. 1 Tab of Whirlfloc for 5G

Yep i usually vorlauf about 1.5-2 gallons until pretty clear. An I just batch sparge with one step for mash and one step for sparge.

Ah ok, gelatin can strip some hop profile from the beer and it's not vegan either (if you car about that). How bad is this chill haze?

Yourrealdad said:

Any adverse effects for using gelatin?

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Some people have reported that gelatin can strip very hoppy beers of some of their bitterness or hop character.

-Rich

Do you get a really good hot break, and then a really good cold break?

After the hot break, the wort looks a lot like egg drop soup- that's how I know I got a great hot break!

Not vegan and what part of hop profile? I think I have water that accentuates hop bitterness, but I don't end up with lots of aroma most of the time (IPA's).

Hmmm, I always though the hot break was just the foaming up of the boil. That happens but I have also been using a drop or two of fermcap. I don't know if it looks like eggdrop. I did read about how you want large flakes of break vs. small ones, but like I said I always thought the end result of the hot break is foaming. My boil looks like a mocha frapicino or whatever coffee thing people at Starbucks drink.

Yourrealdad said:

Not vegan and what part of hop profile? I think I have water that accentuates hop bitterness, but I don't end up with lots of aroma most of the time (IPA's).

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I'm not a vegan, but I won't use gelatin. Many others do, so it's definitely an option if you want to try it.

Besides hot break and cold break, do you check for conversion during the mash, and what is a typical mash pH? A lower mash pH tends to favor clearer beers in my experience (within the optimum, not too low!).

I have not gotten to looking at mash ph. I plan on getting some strips and start to check that, because I am having issues with an off flavor and I think maybe it is a mashing/tannin extraction, but that is for another thread.

Don't grains usually self regulate the mash ph for the most part?

Yooper said:

Do you get a really good hot break, and then a really good cold break?



After the hot break, the wort looks a lot like egg drop soup- that's how I know I got a great hot break!

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This ^

The first time that I got egg-drop wort, I was so amazed and disgusted at the same time. Was not sure if it was normal or not.

I thought I read somewhere that the rapid cooling and cold break had more effect on the chill haze than hot break did. Or do they work in conjunction?


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brewkinger said:

This ^

The first time that I got egg-drop wort, I was so amazed and disgusted at the same time. Was not sure if it was normal or not.

I thought I read somewhere that the rapid cooling and cold break had more effect on the chill haze than hot break did. Or do they work in conjunction?


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Do I just crank up the burner if I am not getting this type of hot break? Do I stir or not stir?

Yourrealdad said:

Don't grains usually self regulate the mash ph for the most part?

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No. My bet is your mash pH is high, unless you're using RO water (and then it would only be a little high, but still high).

Yourrealdad said:

Do I just crank up the burner if I am not getting this type of hot break? Do I stir or not stir?

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You don't need to stir, but you have to watch for boilovers! It's possible to boil over a 6 gallon boil in a 15 gallon keg, when you turn your back. Um, not that I've done that more than once. Or twice.

After the hot break, you should look into the wort and it seriously will look like egg drop soup from the Chinese take out place. That's a good thing, by the way!

Yooper,
I have gotten chill haze from tap water, RO water, charcoal filtered water.

Yeah I always stir just didn't know if I was doing something to prevent a good hotbreak.

So lets say I get a good hot break and I still have chill haze, should I just go with gelatin?

Yourrealdad said:

Yooper,
I have gotten chill haze from tap water, RO water, charcoal filtered water.

Yeah I always stir just didn't know if I was doing something to prevent a good hotbreak.

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I'd recommend looking into water chemistry a bit, as a proper mash pH will often mean no chill haze or other issues.

You can stir, especially when it looks like the wort is going to bubble out of the pot- but you don't need to.

I have my water report and am just starting to get into that. Kind of lost, but have looked through Palmer's book and what my water is good for. Lots of stuff to work on. Was hoping there could just be an easy fix for the haze.

Yourrealdad said:

I have my water report and am just starting to get into that. Kind of lost, but have looked through Palmer's book and what my water is good for. Lots of stuff to work on. Was hoping there could just be an easy fix for the haze.

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It sounds like you're doing the "easy fixes", but you can try a better hot break and make sure you get a great cold break next time. That goes a long way.

+1 for Clarity Ferm. Clarity Ferm is so easy to use - just add it when you pitch your yeast. It is an enzyme, and works well for chill haze. It's reported to also greatly reduce gluten. If you're wanting to let chill haze filter out on it's own, try chilling to 32 -35F if you can.

Try switching to Irish Moss. Rehydrate it in a small amount of water during the boil and add during the last 10 minutes. You want to take advantage of the Moss's protein structure so don't over boil it.

As Yooper said, mash pH is also a factor. I use gelatin for most of my lighter colored beers and it works wonders and is fast (about 24 hrs). There are other products also such as PolyClar. The French use egg white to clarify wine but I must say, I've never tried it with beer since the powdered hoof has worked fine for me

I use gelatin and have found I agree with Scottland's assessment, yes it does strip a little bitterness, but in a good way. He also has a pretty good right up on how to fix and prevent chill haze at his blog.

Get a good hot break. I use whirlfloc in the last ten min of the boil. Sometimes 5. I experiment with the addition and take notes but it's vital to get a good hot break and cool the wort as fast as possible after flameout unless you're doing a steep addition. A fast cooling generally helps proteins drop better and if you get a decent drop there will be less to fall out of suspension in fermentation. Part of the reason I rack to secondary is to help clear the beer more after it's done cleaning up but there's plenty of debate on secondary or no secondary. I have the extra time to dedicate to making sure nothing is rushed.

opiate82 said:

I use gelatin and have found I agree with Scottland's assessment, yes it does strip a little bitterness, but in a good way. He also has a pretty good right up on how to fix and prevent chill haze at his blog.

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So it sounds like I am doing pretty much everything but cold crashing, and gelatin. Possibly not getting a good hot break.

Can whirlfloc and irish moss expire? I know I have had both of mine for about 2 years now?

Thanks

A full, round boil and good hot break, followed by rapid cooling should visibly drop all sorts of stuff out of suspension. If you feel that's already happening, it's very possible that your water is a contributing cause. Try one batch building from distilled water, and see if it behaves differently. If so, you know where to focus your efforts. If not, move on.

I seem to get a batch from time to time that takes much longer to clarify in the keg. Most recently I did a Rye IPA which is still very cloudy. I believe that is mostly from the flaked rye.

Given some patience and time (time is the factor, patience is the tool that lets you get there), everything will drop clear eventually.

bhanson said:

A full, round boil and good hot break, followed by rapid cooling should visibly drop all sorts of stuff out of suspension. If you feel that's already happening, it's very possible that your water is a contributing cause. Try one batch building from distilled water, and see if it behaves differently. If so, you know where to focus your efforts. If not, move on.
.

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This happens with tap water or distilled.

Yooper said:

I'm not a vegan, but I won't use gelatin. Many others do, so it's definitely an option if you want to try it.

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You can also use Agar if using gelatin is an issue. Works just as well.

I get chill haze too. I do it all...whirlfloc, immersion chiller, clear sparge...yadda, yadda, yadda.
Pretty sure it's the tap water. But...To hell with it! I'm not competing and you can't taste the difference anyway. Besides, I read somewhere that protein was good for you.:rockin:

If you fix your mash pH, while doing everything else right like you are, chill haze will go away.

Yoop, can you recommend a good PH tester?

This one was recommended on another thread
http://www.hach.com/pocket-pro-ph-tester/product?id=17990686202

So was this one

http://www.hach.com/pocket-pro-ph-tester-with-replaceable-sensor/product-details?id=17990686211

People seem to either love or hate this one

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009YH06Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

gwapogorilla said:

Yoop, can you recommend a good PH tester?

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I only have experience with one- the Milwaukee pH 56. I do not recommend it. When it works, it works well but I had to go through four electrodes before finding one that worked. I know others have had better results with it.

Question regarding the cold break from rapidly chilling. Do I need to whirlpool + siphon to avoid putting this into my fermenter. My boil kettle has a spigot, so i typically just run it from there into a tube that sits on top of my 400 micron filter for the bucket. Should that work to remove the break material?

MKBoitnott said:

Question regarding the cold break from rapidly chilling. Do I need to whirlpool + siphon to avoid putting this into my fermenter. My boil kettle has a spigot, so i typically just run it from there into a tube that sits on top of my 400 micron filter for the bucket. Should that work to remove the break material?

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You don't have to remove the cold break- it won't resuspend in the wort once it's out of it.

Many of us have CFC or plate chillers, and the cold break goes into the fermenter as a result.

If you want to remove it, and it doesn't go through the filter, you certainly can do that.

Awesome, thanks Yooper. I had a couple beers with a chill haze issue. I think my problem definitely could have been pH, plus low calcium (which I guess is more yeast related... but i figured that could work).

I pretty much do everything the OP does.