First timer with questions re: still cider

swedgin said:

How would you bulk age? Leave it in secondary fermentation? Is head space an issue when bulk aging?

Thank you for your time.

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Yes, headspace is an issue so it needs to be topped up or moved to a smaller vessel if there is a lot of headspace.

But otherwise you can just bulk age cider for months in a carboy after sorbating and racking?

swedgin said:

But otherwise you can just bulk age cider for months in a carboy after sorbating and racking?

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Yes. Or before sorbating as well. I use campden (sulfites) at every other racking as an antioxidant/preservative, but many others don't. As long as it out of the light and in a reasonable temperature, it can be aged.

Sometimes it will cloud up again on you when you sweeten it, so it can be aged a bit after sweetening as well to ensure it stays clear but that can be as short as three to five days, if it remains clear.

Thank you SO much for taking the time to answer my questions. It's very helpful.

Yooper would you mind posting a recipe you like for cider?

I can get natural juice, sugars, and I have temp control. I'd like to see what you're experiencing. Thx 🍺

richlong8020 said:

Yooper would you mind posting a recipe you like for cider?

I can get natural juice, sugars, and I have temp control. I'd like to see what you're experiencing. Thx 🍺

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I'm not the expert Yooper is but it took four years to learn this is my fav. recipe:

5 gal. fresh cider from the farm
NO added sugar
5 camden tabs
5 tsp. yeast nutrient
2-1/2 tsp. acid blend
2-1/2 tsp. pectin enzyme
1 tsp. grape tannin

English Ale yeast like Safale S-04 or Nottingham. I prefer starting in 1/4-1/2 gal. just juice 24-36 hours before adding. Ferment 60-68 Deg.

Here's mine for a 2.5 gallon finished batch. You need 3 gallons total, two for the ferment and one to backsweeten. This is for sweet sparkling cider, and requires a keg.

Ferment:
2 gallons cider
Campden
Pectic enzyme
Yeast nutrient
White sugar to bring it above 1.050

WLP 775 (cider)

Ferment at 70 degrees for 4-6 weeks

Add pectic enzyme to 1 gallon fresh cider and let it sit out overnight then refrigerate. (Add campden if it's not pasteurized or you fear wild yeast.)

Add fresh cider to keg, then rack fermented cider on top. Last batch used 3/8 tsp tannin at this point, but it's added to taste.

Refrigerate and carb to 2.5 ish volumes (10-12 psi). Carb and condition 3-4 weeks.

WLP dropped super clear and kept the apple flavor. It finished below 1.000.

Hey thx. I will write it down. What about ferm times and temps. Steps when to add the "additives"... And, really? No sugar? Interesting.

Racked to secondary. Too much headspace or am I ok?

swedgin said:

Racked to secondary. Too much headspace or am I ok?

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Too much.

It looks like you still have some fermentation, by the air bubbles around the top of the cider, but it's way too much for secondary as fermentation slows and stops. It need to be up to the narrow area of the carboy, just below the bung.

I just did a ton of racking today, and this is chokecherry wine (not cider), but the headspace should be the same:

richlong8020 said:

Hey thx. I will write it down. What about ferm times and temps. Steps when to add the "additives"... And, really? No sugar? Interesting.

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I used to add sugar then started backing off. Finally realized my source cider has a S.G. over 1.050 every year so that's good enough for me.

I add everything at the same time except the yeast which I toss in 24-36 hrs. later. I suppose adding the pectin enzyme 12 hrs after the camden might be better but I have zero complaints about clearing. Primary fermentation down to 1.000-1.005 takes 5 days - 2 weeks. I leave it in the secondary for 6-8 months but it's clear after one.

Like an inch below the bung?

EDIT : Great thanks!

Definitely still have some fermentation. Topping up with the same apple juice I started with.

MarkKF said:

I used to add sugar then started backing off. Finally realized my source cider has a S.G. over 1.050 every year so that's good enough for me.



I add everything at the same time except the yeast which I toss in 24-36 hrs. later. I suppose adding the pectin enzyme 12 hrs after the camden might be better but I have zero complaints about clearing. Primary fermentation down to 1.000-1.005 takes 5 days - 2 weeks. I leave it in the secondary for 6-8 months but it's clear after one.

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Wow 6-8 months. That's long. Well it's worth it in the long run. While in secondary do I need to worry about temp control or is that just with primary ferm?

I just keep it under 70 deg. all the time

If it gets really cold, 30's or 40's during secondary that's O. K.

It's time to start a batch for next fall. Yes, 6-8 months!

EDIT: Looks like it's begun fermenting again, albeit slowly. I'll just let it sit and try to relax lol




Original Post:

Ok, so I started getting concerned that my cider had been sitting on a massive cake of lees for too long (was also building up on the sides of the carboy) and didn't want off flavors, so I racked it.

Now I'm concerned that it wasn't done fermenting and I racked too soon (if that's a thing). I just assumed it would continue fermenting at it's usual pace but there is no movement in the airlock anymore. If it matters, the gravity reading was 1.010 when I racked.

After racking, I added more of the original apple juice to top up the carboy and minimize headspace.

What, if anything, should I do now? Am I ok to just go ahead and pasteurize and bottle this? Do I need to campden/sorbate it before I do? If I pasteurize it now will it be still or carbonated? It tasted great for what it's worth.

I guess I'm just worried that I deviated from the norm and now I don't know what to do because I don't fully understand the process yet.

Thank you guys.


PS: I promise I'm not stupid. I just have MAJOR clinical memory issues and it's hard for me to retain much of what I have read/experienced. I feel like I've already forgotten everything I've learned. Sorry.

Racking off the lees at 1.010 was OK but adding more fresh juice bumped that up and fermentation has started again. The way to eliminate headspace is to either rack to a smaller container or top off with fully fermented cider from a previous batch (some day I'll save some for that purpose lol).

At this point I'd just let it ferment until it's done and clear, then decide how you want to bottle and/or sweeten it.

Maylar said:

Racking off the lees at 1.010 was OK but adding more fresh juice bumped that up and fermentation has started again. The way to eliminate headspace is to either rack to a smaller container or top off with fully fermented cider from a previous batch (some day I'll save some for that purpose lol).

At this point I'd just let it ferment until it's done and clear, then decide how you want to bottle and/or sweeten it.

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Yeah, this is my first batch ever, so no cider from a previous batch and I only have two 5 gallon carboys at the moment.

I'm sure it will be fine.

If this is a still cider, can you just ferment, sweeten with frozen apple juice concentrate and pasteurize, then bottle and store?
I ask since I like still cider.

Damol said:

If this is a still cider, can you just ferment, sweeten with frozen apple juice concentrate and pasteurize, then bottle and store?

I ask since I like still cider.

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Yes.

Yooper said:

Wait for fermentation to end, rack to a new vessel and ensure no new lees fall (sediment). If there is ANY sediment after 60 days, rack again.
No need to degas- it will happen naturally
Sorbate/campden- wait three days
Sweeten to taste
Bottle in whatever you'd like- wine bottles, beer bottles, soda bottles, it doesn't matter
And yes, store in a dark place.

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So the cider can hang out on the lees ok for 60ish days without imparting significant negative flavours?

Another question :

When I rack onto the Campden and Sorbate and wait the three days, is it ok to leave a lot of head space if I'm going to be sweetening and bottling as soon as that three days is up?

3 days won't hurt right? I figure the Sorbate and Campden will be releasing gases that blanket the brew, yeah?

Aren't the lees meant to break down over time starting off the malolactic fermentation in spring? I wouldn't rack it.

http://www.cider.org.uk/part3.htm

I don't know how to make a still, sweet cider without racking and sorbating it.

Alright, well I'll just do what I think will work and hope for the best.

swedgin said:

I don't know how to make a still, sweet cider without racking and sorbating it.

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Me either!

You can introduce MLF if you want (I almost never do in my ciders) but that doesn't have anything to do with lees. You definitely WANT the cider off of the lees. MLF isn't introduced via the lees, so don't worry about that. If you are going to do MLF, don't sorbate or campden yet. But if you're not doing MLF (which should be done right after primary ends), then go ahead and sorbate and campden once it's clear and not dropping any more lees after at least 60 days.