An idea for a keg

I admited in another post that I was a tight wad pensioner. Now the Engineer in me has come up wiyth this idea.

I have a 5 litre rather solid plasic water container that I believe will withstand priming presure. Anyway I am about to fill it from my secondary after I add priming sugar. I know it will be ok to start but as beer is eventually dispensed the pressure will drop.

This is where the brain wave comes in. I can fit a bladder with a valve in the cap fitted with an ordinary bike tyre valve. I can pump the bladder with air to pressurise the brew as I wish. The bladder I am thinking of is one from a wine cask.

The beer I believe should maintain its carbonation as the pressure should remain high.

I have these ideas like the tube I fitted through our wood fire to warm air flowing through the tube heated by the embers. It worked for a while till the embers cooled and the fire would go out. Still it was a great project even though the better half was not impressed.

EDIT: I misunderstood your post it should work I'd think

The beer will not last in a very good condition if it spends more than a couple of days under air.

These are designed to ferment and save in and are wide spread in the UK bust they are designed to use CO2.

Orfy, he's talking about making his own homemade party pig. Those have a bladder in them that have compressed air cartridges to fill the bladder that then drives the beer out.

It would work, but finding a bladder that won't give an off-flavor to the beer would be a challenge. 'specially, a free one.

Seems like he has this worked out since it is a bladder from a wine cask. The nice thing about it is it is reusable as opposed to the party pig. The bad thing about this design is finding out how to keep a steady 12ish PSI in that bladder as you dispense beer.

He's an engineer with too much time on his hands. He could figure out the correct ratio and volumes of vinegar and baking soda so the pressure didn't get two great and use it instead of air in the bladder. Basically just a giant party pig. I'm no chemist or engineer but it seems like there should be a balance between those two substances equated with volume and pressure that the bladder would produce. Go for it Terry.
As for your heatilator have you tried to reduce the flow of air? It would keep the air inside hotter and lessen the chance of your embers dieing.

Ha as I said I am a cheap wad pensioner and it was rightly picked "Too much time on my hands" The wood fire is now a thing of the past Polution reduction. Austrlia is planning to lead the world in the enviromental race. Its silly because if we had zero emmisions it would not change global warming one iota. Its the competitive spirit Sydney even trys to beat the world at fireworks, One of these years they will actually melt the Harbour Bridge and take the Opera house with it.

Getting back on track. It may be a silly idea but I will try fasioning a sanitised wine cask bladder with said valve in the cap. I will prime the beer well and let it carbonise. The bladder is just to take up the space which I intend to fill with a bike pump. I believe as long as I keep a positive pressure there should not be any suck back of air. Plus as the beer is extracted a certain amount of Co2 will come out of solution.

One point I went to a factory Christmas do many years ago and they had a keg no Co2 bottle but the keg was connected to the pressurised air supply. I guess that the beer did not last long enough to become oxidised.

Another thought Co2 is heavier than air wouldent it always present a blanket over the beer. As that is so consider this

As beer is extracted the pressure drops and co2 is released from solution if air is actually slowly pumped in to raise the pressure to help extract the beer would it not be protected by the blanket of Co2. It would only have to be a thin layer.

Plus how long would 5 litres of beer really last certainly long enough to satisfy guests at a party. Prior to that it would be stored sanitised ok for several months.

I have convinced myself. I will epoxy a valve in the cap and go for it. I will try without the bladder first. If it is successful I will report back, if not I will slink away and hope you all forget about it.

By the way I cannot get a "Party Pig" here shame to say maybe there is an Aussie who has an address
Also something to consider


[ame="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/405643/kids_science_experiment_to_show_that_co2_is_heavier_than_air/"]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/405643/kids_science_experiment_to_show_that_co2_is_heavier_than_air/[/ame]

hi Terry08
I like the DIY concept.
I was looking into it myself when i ran across this helpulf link;
3 Liter Pop Bottle Mini-Kegs
I purchase a reasonably priced a 2.5 gallon cornellius keg which compliments the standard 5 gallon cornellius that I use. If anything it is a good investment because they can only go up in price.

Orfy that is one neat looking fermenter the spigot seems kind of high on it though...got any details?

Cheers
BeerCanuck

The fittings would be great but I would need some manufacturing facilities. I rather like the idea of Bicarb and (Vinegar) what about Abscorbic acid.

I have been pondering on a few practical ways to try it. I was going to start with a Draught that just came out of the Secondary but the taste was so great I did not want to waste a drop. So I have now a Dark Ale in the Secondary which gives me a couple of weeks to fashion the bladder setup.

Couple of thoughts:

A basket ball bladder with the nipple through a grommet in the lid. I would use a needle inflator
Maybe the best Idea
Wine Bladder this may take a bit of modifying. This made me think. A wine (Plastic not the pig stomach type) bladder was actually designed in Oz The the idea being that as the wine is extracted the bladder collapses keeping a positive pressure on the liquid.

So I am toying with just sanitising and priming a wine cask bladder and see whether the valve and bag can survive the presure build up. If it does it will make a perfect keg. There are even insulated containers available to keep them cool. they would be ideal to purge what little air that may be present when they are filled. Consider the plasic valve has to stand the full cask in transport being roughly handled and it takes reasonable force to release the valve to pour the wine. The valve can be prised off and reapplied. actually they would make good water containers. The actual bladder is very tough and hard to tear and it is food grade.

Cask Beer Ahhh! just imagine

You heard it here first folks the idea is now my interlectual property and may be copied for personal use only, not sold or commercialised. I am willing to totally give up the rights to this idea in exchange for a full kegging and micro brew setup.

I said I was a tight wad pensioner so bite me.

The idea is interesting but using air to pressurize it will not work. The beer doesn't see the air as one pressure it sees the pressure of each gas that makes it up. What this means is that beer has little oxygen in it and when you pressurize the container with air, its going to have a great deal more oxygen. The oxygen from the air will rapidly enter the beer to equalize the pressure of oxygen in the beer to the pressure of oxygen in the air. The more you pressurize with air, the faster you stale your beer.

the air will be in a bladder not touching the beer as he has stated

I really like this idea! A sanitized mylar wine bladder shouldn't impart any off flavors, and as long as you carb your beer correctly and use the right amount of headspace, it shouldn't oxidize as long as the system is sealed. I would make sure to use a bladder that is larger in volume than the cask itself so you can make sure you get every last drop out without exploding the thing.

I would not try pressurizing any keg system with air alone, since the oxygen will readily go into solution and spoil the beer quickly. The bladder however is a great idea. It's going to be a pain in the ass making sure it can seal correctly under pressure though

As luck would have it I happened to have a cask of Reisling just about empty I empted the cask (Very Nice) and when I inspect the bladder the valve is firmly on the solid exit of the bladder.

Now what I intend is:- Remove valve and sanitise the bladder. I will fill the 4 litre bladder in this case with 3 1/2 litres of cleared beer afer priming with the correct amount of sugar.I will replace the valve and apply a cable tie tight around the seal point. I will then open the valve and expel air/Co2 utill beer starts to expel. I will then place the bladder in a bucket just in case.

I will wait 3 weeks and then place it in a fridge. By then provided it has gone the distance I will sample the result.

If the bladder holds up it means that many of these bladders can be stored and it will be possible to have a few different types (On Tap).

I know there are a few Caveats. But the worst in descending order is:

1. Valve or bladder compromised.
(I think I will sterilise a clean bucket and place cling wrap over it. Why waste a drop T.W.P again)
2. Carbonisation of beer drops too fast after a litre or two drawn off.
3. The idea works and I drink myself to death.

I have already contacted a number of Wine makers and asked for some spare bladders. They will probably not respond or tell me to sling my hook.

Downside to that is I will have to go through several casks to get stock. Ahhh! its a hard life.

Modenacart

I do not know if air and Co2 actually combine and do not think so. If this is the case and the beer has a layer of Co2 over it now If air is forced onto the Co2 blanket the Co2 will be raised to the pressur of the introduced air. Now as Co2 is always heavier this should also apply at this pressure as I see it and the air pressure would always press down on to this safety blanket.

Actually that video actually explains why open fermentation works and there is no contamination. Now if you slosh the container about the air may come into contact but a lot would have to make contact to achieve oxidation.

I agree what I am saying may be a heap of crap but untill I get an experts comment I will believe my position. Being the stubbon bugger I am.

Modenacart By the way I am not saying you are wrong, I may have got the bull by the horns. I am not always right I have been known not to be infallible. I gave up being perfect a long time ago although I used to be Slim Trim and Terrific. I am afraid I am only terrific now. Still one out of three ain't that bad .

I used to talk too much now I type too much.
Cheers for now

If there is a difference in pressure between the oxygen in the beer and the oxygen in the air around it, it will absorb or emit oxygen. It doesn't have a choice, thats simple thermodynamics for partial pressures. We studied a whole chapter on it in thermo II. Pressure for each gas wants to be in equilibrum.

When you are doing open fermentation the beer is emitting C02 because there is a higher pressure of C02 and its generating it, thats not the case when you force pressurize the container beer is already in. That genration of CO2 is where the blanket is coming from.

*clicks subscribe and hopes tightwad pensioner at least has a digital camera and will take pictures of his cockamamie, yet really cool scheme!!!*

Retired engineers with too much time on their hands rule!!!



This is the kind of stuff that will help us survive the coming zombiepocalypse...This and learning to brew with only grocery store ingredients.

It's strange how things just comes together. I just passed a Garage Sale and they had a wine bladder Esky, suitable for a 5 litre bladder. The bladder fits inside with the valve protruding. The lid has rudimentary clamps. Now there is no reason why I cannot sit a Football bladder inside on top of the wine bladder and pump air in that.

It all comes down now to the bladder and valve withstanding the pressure.
I will make photos' available if it works and a humble apology if it does not.
I will save the 5 Litre water container for the next trial if this fails.

Did you hear, water on Mars, there will be some happy brewers there eventually. Gee I am impressed by your guy's at Nasa bet there are even a sprinkling of true blues there as well.

Hopefully they have water low in bicarbonates with a nice amount of calcuim

Well this is the situation I have sanitised a 4 litre wine bladder and added the piming sugar and filled it with 4 litres of ale from the secondary. I fitted the bladder into a wine bladder esky I mentioned. I then re fitted the plastic valve. The whole sherbang I placed in a continer just in case and have it where it is reasonably warm in the day to Carbonise up.

Now comes the wait to see if the bladded holds up. If it comes close I will enquire if reinforced versions could be made with actually two compartments one for the beer and the second for introducing the air to maintain preasure.

So this so far is a 4 litre keg complete with Esky/Cooler using throwaway bladder. It is an interesting experiment. I will report back the results with pics.

For the purists, let it be known that no beer molocules were harmed by air in this experiment.

OK, well past my limited DYI abilities, but GO Terry08.
If it starts going bad due to o2, I'm sure you can find some friends to kill it fast. (Just waiting for the zommification of this thread)
If it works out well, please provide pictures. Co2 is really a pain to get for me.

I haved placed the bladder in the Esky outside, The temperature is below 20deg c so the carbonisation is a bit slow. It is outside for obvious reasons. I have the top off the Esky to let it warm up. I do not think a Kookaburra or Cockatoo will attack it. We have a possum that sniffs around occationally but I do not think the shiny silver will attract it.

Using a secondary is certainly the go, the Dark Ale I will still have in it for another week is turning out terrific. I will have to beat my mates off with a stick if they ever get to try it.

Back later, its like watching grass grow.

Pressure building, fingers crossed, Hate the suspence

Well to put this idea to rest. The Wine bladder held the pressure ok and the beer conditioned well. Full carbonation was prevented due to the elasticity of the bladder. The beer ws a dark ale mid way between a Draught and a Stout. Final results:

Whole Wine esky with bladder placed in fridge and beer cooled. The beer was of excellent quality and quite drinkable but low on Co2. I will stick to bottles.

I will consume it gradually, to good to waste even mix it with a more robust beer.

Conclusion: Would work for a party when the whole lot would be consumed in a few hours. I will not do it again but I did sample some of the beer at various stages so that would have reduced the Co2 somewhat.

Finally it is better for me to store beer in bottles