Zinc deficiency in RO or distilled water mashed beer leads to harshness?

[Silver_Is_Money]

I recently came across a document which indicated that a small amount of zinc instills a certain smoothness to beer. There is no zinc present within good quality RO or distilled water, and the typical minerals we add do not include zinc. Comments are welcome.

 

[mabrungard]

There is truth in the fact that brewers do need to include a zinc supplement when brewing with high percentage of RO or distilled water. There just isn't enough zinc in the water to promote good yeast metabolism. I believe most reputable yeast nutrient mixtures include zinc, but can't confirm that universally. An important reality is that the dose of zinc sulfate is incredibly small. On the order of 1 gram of zinc sulfate heptahydrate in 10 to 20 BARRELS of beer. That's virtually unmeasurable for a dose in the typical homebrew batch. That's why using a reputable yeast nutrient is most feasible.

As to: Smoothness? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if good yeast metabolism helps with smoothness.

 

[Yooper]

This reminded me of something I read years ago, from @Braukaiser (Kai Troester).
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/

I wonder how to get zinc in the wort without using some of the nutrients out there. One guy had done everything he could to make the best beer possible, including fixing his water with RO and getting a perfect mash ph and modest additions of salts. But he had this noticeable but slight off flavor. After going over and over (and over) his process, he said, "and then I add the yeast nutrient, and then I..." I said, "Well next time, take it out!" and boom! problem solved. So what is the correct yeast nutrient for a medium OG beer I wonder? And how do we get the amount we want in our wort?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Great link Yooper!

I'm considering buying one of these. I figure 3 or 4 drops per every 5 gallons of mash water should do it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HX3Q9VQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D0VI0A8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[IslandLizard]

Great link Yooper!

I'm considering buying one of these. I figure 3 or 4 drops per every 5 gallons of mash water should do it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HX3Q9VQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D0VI0A8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

How about making your own Zinc tincture from some Zinc Sulfate?

After I ran out of a small supply of Zinc Chloride, I powdered a few 50mg Zinc Gluconate caplets and have been adding a pinch (~1/16 tsp) to 3.2 liter starter wort and a dash (1/8 tsp) at the end of the boil of 5.5 gallon batches. I'm sure I'm adding more Zinc than "prescribed," but haven't seen any negative effects. Fermentations have always been good and strong.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How about making your own Zinc tincture from some Zinc Sulfate?

At only $3.50 per pound, the price is certainly right. The MSDS says "feed grade", which is different from food grade, but in small quantities it may not make that much difference. Though being as pedantic over accidentally poisoning myself or someone else as I am, it would be nice to know what the difference between feed and food grade really is.

 

[Dory Rules]

I work in the feed industry, and have been in the food industry as well. As far as the ingredients go, there is no difference in food va feed grade. Regulations the companies follow are the real difference, and certification costs. I would have no qualms equating feed grade with food grade for most ingredients.

 

[IslandLizard]

but in small quantities it may not make that much difference

Exactly!
At the quantities we use them at, it means nothing. Anyone aware of the amounts of arsenic in grain?

 

[IslandLizard]

I work in the feed industry, and have been in the food industry as well. As far as the ingredients go, there is no difference in food va feed grade. Regulations the companies follow are the real difference, and certification costs. I would have no qualms equating feed grade with food grade for most ingredients.

That surely is helpful information!

 

[IslandLizard]

At only $3.50 per pound, the price is certainly right.

Sadly, a Aside from KCl I can't find anything else at that company that's there are a few other products useful for us to make the (reasonable) shipping charge even more compelling:

• Calcium Chloride - or use Quick Joe?
• Calcium Sulfate - unless you buy big bags at HD / Lowe's
• Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt) - that's really cheap at the drugstore
• Citric acid (acid additions, (re)passivating stainless steel)
• Urea (yeast nutrient)

When you want to reduce your Calcium levels or they're maxing out, I guess you could use Ammonium salts instead, such as:

• Ammonium Chloride
• Ammonium Sulfate

Not sure about using these last 2 in beer wort.

Disclaimer
I have no connection to this company, I stumbled upon them when looking for brewing related chemical resources.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Exactly!
At the quantities we use them at, it means nothing. Anyone aware of the amounts of arsenic in grain?

It's also in various seaweeds, and people eat those for their iodine benefit.

 

[ajdelange]

When you want to reduce your Calcium levels or they're maxing out, I guess you could use Ammonium salts instead, such as:

• Ammonium Chloride
• Ammonium Sulfate

Not sure about using these last 2 in beer wort.

Interesting thought! They are used in foods as yeast nutrients and acidifiers so not only might they improve fermentation but also have potential use in setting mash pH. But I've never heard of anyone using them in beer. Perhaps too much NH4+ is too much of a good thing. The usual dose of DAP as a yeast nutrient is pretty small.

 

[z-bob]

Okay, time for a stupid question. Why not just put a galvanized (hot dipped) washer or two in your yeast starter?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This reminded me of something I read years ago, from @Braukaiser (Kai Troester).
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/

I wonder how to get zinc in the wort without using some of the nutrients out there. One guy had done everything he could to make the best beer possible, including fixing his water with RO and getting a perfect mash ph and modest additions of salts. But he had this noticeable but slight off flavor. After going over and over (and over) his process, he said, "and then I add the yeast nutrient, and then I..." I said, "Well next time, take it out!" and boom! problem solved. So what is the correct yeast nutrient for a medium OG beer I wonder? And how do we get the amount we want in our wort?

Does Lallemand's Fermaid K yeast nutrient contain zinc? Does 1 gram per gallon of Wort in the fermenter sound about right as to the addition quantity?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

OK, I found a yeast nutrient that has zinc: White Labs Servomyces

Servomyces D50 is a naturally zinc enriched single-strain brewing yeast (from the prestigious Hefebank Weihenstephan) that is used as a biological yeast nutrient. The propagation and drying process of Servomyces D50 has been specifically designed to accumulate a high concentration of zinc that is essential for healthy alcoholic fermentation.

The downside is the price. About $15 for enough to treat only 30 gallons of Wort.

Its cheaper to use Fermaid K and then add 3-4 drops of the zinc sulfate solutions available on amazon.com. A full pound of Fermaid K costs only about $15.

 

[ajdelange]

Okay, time for a stupid question. Why not just put a galvanized (hot dipped) washer or two in your yeast starter?

Why not? Brewers used to throw a couple of pennies into their kettles at one time. Just be sure you don't use cadmium plated ones by mistake.

 

[cloudybrewer]

From wyeast labs site talking about their nutrient:

CONTAINS
Proprietary blend of vitamins, minerals, inorganic nitrogen, organic nitrogen, zinc, phosphates and other trace elements.

I've started using this for my hefes, but the jury is still out.

 

[z-bob]

Why not? Brewers used to throw a couple of pennies into their kettles at one time. Just be sure you don't use cadmium plated ones by mistake.

Excellent point. Thanks. I said "hot dipped"; those are rather distinctive, and the rough surface has more area, but I forgot some of the bright plated fasteners are cadmium-plated.

 

[IslandLizard]

Excellent point. Thanks. I said "hot dipped"; those are rather distinctive, and the rough surface has more area, but I forgot some of the bright plated fasteners are cadmium-plated.

Aren't modern pennies zinc based now, so you could get your zinc from them too? Not sure what else is in them, though.

 

[SanPancho]

Too much zinc actually lowered yeast cell counts as i recall. I think that kais data showed that, or maybe a white labs paper. One of those two.

So just winging it and dumping a bunch might not be a good idea.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Aren't modern pennies zinc based now, so you could get your zinc from them too? Not sure what else is in them, though.

They are copper clad zinc to my knowledge.

 

[z-bob]

Aren't modern pennies zinc based now, so you could get your zinc from them too? Not sure what else is in them, though.

Yes. I have a penny that I found that has been run-over enough times to wear all the copper off. If I was to actually try this, that's what I would use instead of a hot-dipped washer or roofing nail.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Yes. I have a penny that I found that has been run-over enough times to wear all the copper off. If I was to actually try this, that's what I would use instead of a hot-dipped washer or roofing nail.

How about one of those zinc-based otc cold remedies? FDA approved, known ingredients, easy to measure the dose. I'm a machinist, so I'm asking, not recommending here.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just ordered this zinc, along with some Fermaid K.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HX3Q9VQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

At 4 drops per batch, it should be good for about 125 x 5.6 gallon batches, if one assumes 10 drops equal one mL.

If I'm looking at this correctly, 4 drops = 6 mg. of zinc

Does anyone know if 6 mg. of zinc in 5.6 gallons is enough?

 

[mabrungard]

Does anyone know if 6 mg. of zinc in 5.6 gallons is enough?

Wait! We're only looking to bring the zinc content up to the 0.1 to 0.2 ppm range in the brewing liquor. You might be pushing the Zn up a bit higher than desirable. Remember that the taste threshold for Zn in water is around 0.5 ppm. It seems like 4 mg might be more appropriate.

Is that solution reported to be delivering in terms of zinc or zinc sulfate?

 

[brewbama]

I use a 1/2 tsp of yeast nutrient at 10 min remaining in the boil for a 5.5 gal batch (distilled water). It has zinc in it (among other ingredients). https://wyeastlab.com/wyeast-nutrient-blend-he

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Wait! We're only looking to bring the zinc content up to the 0.1 to 0.2 ppm range in the brewing liquor. You might be pushing the Zn up a bit higher than desirable. Remember that the taste threshold for Zn in water is around 0.5 ppm. It seems like 4 mg might be more appropriate.

Is that solution reported to be delivering in terms of zinc or zinc sulfate?

It sounds like 2 to 3 drops then. The label says 10 drops provide 15 mg of zinc (delivered from zinc sulfate). 2 drops would be 3 mg. 3 drops would be 4.5 mg.

I think I'll use 2 drops, as in 21 Liters (5.5 gallons) that would be 0.143 ppm.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I use a 1/2 tsp of yeast nutrient at 10 min remaining in the boil for a 5.5 gal batch (distilled water). It has zinc in it (among other ingredients). https://wyeastlab.com/wyeast-nutrient-blend-he

That would have worked for sure, but I've already purchased the Fermaid K and zinc sulfate solution.

1 TSP of Fermaid K should work for 5.5-6 gallons. That plus 2 drops of the zinc solution. The zinc sulfate bottle comes with an eyedropper for dispensing by drops.

 

[bierhaus15]

A certain large brewery did a zinc optimization study and found 0.150-0.175 ppm of zinc sulfate heptahydrate is about ideal for most all malt brews. Over that and you'll start to negatively affect fermentation time, ester formation, and flocculation.

For 5 gallons, that works out to 0.0125g zinc sulfate added to wort.

Also, most commercially available yeast nutrients provide too much zinc and contain other things like corn starch and stabilizing agents that make up most of the weight of the product. You can get much of the same effect (sans zinc) by adding a few grams of dried yeast to the boil.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I looked up zinc mineral supplements and found this https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/zinc-50-mg-100-capsules/vs-1450. Seems like it should work and last quite a long time to.https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/zinc-50-mg-100-capsules/vs-1450

 

[SanPancho]

Over that and you'll start to negatively affect fermentation time, ester formation, and flocculation.

Wasn’t there also something about decreased reproduction rates? Or maybe those were different reports/studies.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I looked up zinc mineral supplements and found this https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/zinc-50-mg-100-capsules/vs-1450. Seems like it should work and last quite a long time to.

Zinc Gluconate was found by Kai Troester to not be particularly effective. Your link points to be what appears to be essentially identical to what he used in his tests.

One of his commenters (within comments seen beneath his article) indicates that in his research the breweries use zinc sulfate. No idea if this is valid advice or not, just tossing it out.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Zinc Gluconate was found by Kai Troester to not be particularly effective. Your link points to be what appears to be essentially identical to what he used in his tests.

One of his commenters (within comments seen beneath his article) indicates that in his research the breweries use zinc sulfate. No idea if this is valid advice or not, just tossing it out.

Yes, you're correct. On closer inspection, this one also contains unknown percentages of zinc oxide and zinc aspartate. As well as rice flour, gelatin, and magnesium stearate. None of which I'd care to purposely add to my beer.

 

[Miraculix]

As we are talking about really small amounts here, I wonder if the grain bill already brings in enough zinc for the yeasties.

 

[mabrungard]

As we are talking about really small amounts here, I wonder if the grain bill already brings in enough zinc for the yeasties.

Apparently not. The work by Anheuser Busch that was mentioned above, did assess trials where the water-borne zinc was varied and they recommended the levels I quote above.

 

[Miraculix]

Apparently not. The work by Anheuser Busch that was mentioned above, did assess trials where the water-borne zinc was varied and they recommended the levels I quote above.

Thanks.

I think it would be good to develop a standardized solution for this subject, to be able to add it easily with the right amount.

Is there a zinc sulfate option on your Brun water spreadsheet?

 

[Beer666]

I use a 1/2 tsp of yeast nutrient at 10 min remaining in the boil for a 5.5 gal batch (distilled water). It has zinc in it (among other ingredients). https://wyeastlab.com/wyeast-nutrient-blend-he

I have used the same for the last 50 or so brews. I have never dissolved in water first though.

 

[mabrungard]

Is there a zinc sulfate option on your Brun water spreadsheet?

It's teeny, both the addition and the effect on concentrations. Its not worth worrying about. I use the Wyeast nutrient, but the drops that were mentioned above are a decent alternative.

 

[bierhaus15]

It is worth noting that subsequent studies have shown that zinc added to the boil does not make it through to the fermenter, with the majority ending up in the kettle trub. Therefore, zinc should really be added to the wort after chilling, via liquid. Also, zinc has a cumulative effect on yeast, so much of the benefits are not seen for the first or second generation, its impact is really seen after 3-4 generations, especially with better fermentation times, higher RDF%, and flocculation. For those who have access, the MBAA has a lot of updated info on zinc trials.

 

[BeerMakesPeopleHappy]

I bought these at my local health food store:

https://www.megafood.com/vitamins-supplements/mineral-supplements/zinc-W1068.html

The zinc is derived from S. Cerevisiae. I use half a tablet per 10 gallon batch (.3 mg/l), so enough for 120 brews! They are bound together by a blend of spinach and broccoli which I let people know is my secret ingredient to good beer - although I doubt it affects the flavour very much