Zeus's rebirth. Non typical, all steam brew stand.

[brewman !]

I'm working on this again, on and off.

I still haven't found a good motorized ball valve that is rated for steam. Its easy to buy a steam rated valve at HD for less than $15. So I bought one of these motorized ball valves with the hope of being able to remove the motor and use it with a steam rated valve.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271229940396

Watts has a steam rated motorized ball valve (0431101). Its over $600.

KLD has a picture of one, but no information. Note the long stand off between the valve and the motor.
http://www.electric-valve.com/ngw.html#

The generic non steam ball valves have EDPM seals, which are only rated for 230F, max.

 

[brewman !]

I've been doing some work on the electrical feed to the boiler.

The boiler has 2 6KW elements. Each element will pull 25A. (6,000 watts/240V = 25A)

25A x 2 = 50A total.

Local electrical code says that electric water heaters are heater devices and heater devices need breakers that are at least 25% larger than the load current so that they don't pop the breaker under normal operation. 50A x 125% = 62.5A.

I will NOT be installing a GFCI. As long as my boiler is hard wired there is no need for one. Furthermore, there will be no manual controls on my "control box".

The boiler is supplied by 240VAC alone. Thus one can use 2 conductor wire (red, black + bonding wire, no neutral).

NMD90 in 8/2 (and 8/3) is only rated for 45A. I'll need to use 6/2 or 6/3. Its rated for 65A. I need about 50 feet of it.
https://www.ecswire.com/products/specs/nmd90

Local building code also states that one needs to use armored cable (BX) for the section between the boiler and the wall. Not sure where I am going to find 6/2 BX ! Hopefully I can find empty cable armor and insert my 6/2 wires into it.

I have an open electrical permit on my house. Not sure how I am going to explain all this to the electrical inspector... LOL.

FYI, I looked at several eBrewery projects prior to designing mine. Most use 10/3 wire on a 30A fuse. Those systems can run 1 element (usually 5500 watts) at a time.

5500 watts x 3412 btu/KwHr = 18,766 BTU/hr. 15 gallons = 125 lbs of water. 18,766 / 125 = 150F per hour. It would take an hour to heat 15 gallons of 60F tap water to the point of boiling.

 

[brewman !]

I'll run the boiler with a PID for testing. Eventually it and the steam valves will be controlled by a Raspberry Pi.

Nothing against the eBrewery design and PIDs, but I want to be able to monitor my system from another room via a browser.

Furthermore, a steam system is going to need an adaptive control algorithm for the steam valves. The amount of energy a steam line delivers will depend on the temperature of the boiler, which will probably not be constant during a brew session.

 

[hiflying31]

this is some real great info gives some new light to my "shed" project of a one barrle size system My main dely was the fact of needing two heater element to power the boil kettel great work so far looking fwd to updates

 

[brewman !]

I have a decision to make, should I pull 6/2 or 6/3 to the brew kettle ?

6/3 is necessary to run a stove or dryer. It has a conductor to run the neutral feed, allowing the device to use 120V as well as 240VAC. 6/2 has no neutral, thus it can only supply 240VAC.

The 6/2 wire will cost about $150. The 6/3 will cost about $195. I need 72 feet, mostly because of the long, indirect path it needs to take to get to the boiler. I could go shorter, but I would have to pull down the drywalled ceiling in the basement to route it.

Keep in mind that this is all temporary.

 

[brewman !]

this is some real great info gives some new light to my "shed" project of a one barrle size system My main dely was the fact of needing two heater element to power the boil kettel great work so far looking fwd to updates

Thanks ! Happy to hear that someone finds my rambling dribble worthwhile ! LOL.

 

[12pmmike]

Would be cool to use one of these little packages. I have not tried to find the cost, I'm sure it's high.. would be awsome though... looking forward to see your project running.
http://www.chromalox.com/resource-center/design-guide-pages/dg-steamboilers.aspx

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[brewman !]

Would be cool to use one of these little packages. I have not tried to find the cost, I'm sure it's high.. would be awsome though... looking forward to see your project running.
http://www.chromalox.com/resource-center/design-guide-pages/dg-steamboilers.aspx

Lots of 4 to 10 Kw boilers on eBay for less than $2000.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steam-Gener...902?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a33604e1e

Most of them are a lot higher pressure, like 100 PSI. Anything industrial is apt to be 3 phase. Nothing that a rewire couldn't probably fix.

 

[hiflying31]

my first idea was to use a instant hot adj for steam with direct injection but did not want to keep adding water to my kettle or mash tun I was afraid of the close loop systems due to the explosive potential what is your view on using a boiler that has been set up for steam heat for a house add a zone off the existing system just an idea not sure how well it will recover and keep the steam up might help me with my build and keep it in the house and led to less impact from the wife

 

[Carlscan26]

If there's even a possibility of putting an appliance there or reusing the cable in a later project that would need it then I would spend the extra $45 ... Given everything you have into this what's $45 more? I mean it's not my money I'm talking about but for that little a difference I'd rather have it than wish I did later.


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[brewman !]

my first idea was to use a instant hot adj for steam with direct injection but did not want to keep adding water to my kettle or mash tun I was afraid of the close loop systems due to the explosive potential what is your view on using a boiler that has been set up for steam heat for a house add a zone off the existing system just an idea not sure how well it will recover and keep the steam up might help me with my build and keep it in the house and led to less impact from the wife

I deliberately stayed away from anything with a heat exchanger and a flame.

I did this because the heat exchangers in most on demand and regular hot water heaters are small and efficient with thin walls and I couldn't predict what would happen to the temperatures in the heat exchanger component when the water went from 140F in a normal hot water heater to 270F in a boiler application. All it takes is one hot spot and you've got a failure on your hands.

In an electric hot water heater, if the element burns out from being too hot due to the hotter water its no big deal. It stops working and that is about the end of it. In a gas fired device if the heat exchanger gets too hot it can weaken or burn through and then fail structurally, releasing steam into the room. I would not take a gamble on that.

My house has hydronic heat and has a NTN Trinity compact natural gas boiler. The maximum temperature setpoint is 190F. Most hydronic "boilers" are set up like this these days. They no longer generate steam, but rather hot water. The ones that do generate steam are pretty expensive.

I did give some thought to running an on demand or regular hot water heater as a water heater with a 270F set point and using a pump to circulate hot water (270F) through the heating coils. I abandoned that effort when I realized that the heat transfer from steam/ copper/water is 3x+ what it is for water/copper/water. Instead of needing 30 feet of copper tubing in a vessel, I'd need 90 feet.

The other issue is finding an inexpensive pump that will handle 270F water. Most hydronic pumps are rated for 15PSI and 230F, which means you need even larger heat coils.

 

[brewman !]

If there's even a possibility of putting an appliance there or reusing the cable in a later project that would need it then I would spend the extra $45 ... Given everything you have into this what's $45 more? I mean it's not my money I'm talking about but for that little a difference I'd rather have it than wish I did later.

I begrudgingly agree. I'm cheap, so the thought of saving $45 is appealing.

BTW, I'm not into this set up for a whole lot.

Thus far
- hot water heater $300.
- boiler wire $150 or $200, depending
- 65A breaker $45
- 2x 6,000 watt elements, $18 each
- element socket, $14
- copper coil, $30
- SS table $145
- SS sink $135
- faucet $120
- Bayou Classic pots, $75 each

Obviously, I need a few more things to get going, but the total bill is going to be a lot less than the $6-8K that the eBrewery people are spending.

It seems a bit silly to spend $300 on a water heater and another $200 to wire it in. But it was the only way I could brew inside with electricity and have a fast heating system. I'd rather spend an extra $500 on a steam system that works than drop $400 plus for Blichman pots.

I was all set to build the brewstand outlined in the Zeus I thread, until I realized how much I didn't want to brew in my cold garage, which doesn't have running water right now. Traditionally I do 80% of my brewing in winter.

One benefit I haven't mentioned is that I hope to use steam from the boiler to sanitize my fermentation vessels and racking equipment.

 

[Renoun]

I have a decision to make, should I pull 6/2 or 6/3 to the brew kettle ?

It's pretty easy to imagine a boiler unit with 120V controls. I'd pull the 6/3, it is more versatile and also gives you the option of feeding a sub-panel which might make wiring future improvements in that part of your basement simpler.

 

[Carlscan26]

Yeah - it's easy for me to spend your money

How much do you estimate the controller will cost you to build?


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[brewman !]

Yeah - it's easy for me to spend your money

How much do you estimate the controller will cost you to build?

Controller parts list

1 12VDC power supply
1 RPi board
1 USB Wifi adapter
1 8 channel relay board
1 100A SSR
4 or 5 DS18BS20 temperature probes
1 enclosure box
4 or 5 indicator lights
1 key switch

The big cost on the control system is the steam valves, which is why I keep talking about them. I hope they are about $50 each and I will want 3 or 4 of them. 4 would allow me to have 1 HLT, 1 mash tun and 2 boil kettles. I want 2 boil kettles for doing split batches or doing 2 brews in 1 session.

The 12VDC power supply will provide power for the 100A SSR that turns the boiler elements on and off as well as the steam valves.

If I want to get fancy, I'll add a touchscreen LCD and keyboard at the brewing station. If not, I'll run the RPi from my laptop.

 

[Carlscan26]

Oh that's right, I forgot you had mentioned the RPi before.


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[brewman !]

FYI, the testing of the boiler and heating coil is held up by the lack of a 100A SSR. Its on its way via a slow boat from China. Literally ! I ordered it a while back. It should be here soon.

I'm reluctant to go gung ho on building everything else until I am sure that the steam heating system works. I plan to jimmy rig a heating coil in a vessel and then fire up the boiler and and double check that it heats as well as I think it will.

 

[Carlscan26]

Why not run two 50A SSRs - one for each element?


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[brewman !]

Why not run two 50A SSRs - one for each element?

What would it gain ?

Cons:
- have to mount 2 SSRs in the control box
- 2 50A SSRs are more expensive than 1 100A SSR
- have to run 2 armored cables between the control box and the boiler
- PID/ controller only has 1 output anyway. The only way to make "use" of a 2nd SSR is to run 2 temperature set points with 2 control PIDs/ loops. Not sure what that gains.

 

[stlbeer]

Most PID's can control 5+ SSR's simultaneously. Well, at least the Auber PIDs can.

Did you order an extra 100A SSR?

 

[brewman !]

Most PID's can control 5+ SSR's simultaneously. Well, at least the Auber PIDs can.

5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Did you order an extra 100A SSR?

Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.

 

[iijakii]

5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.

Just jumpering the signal wire across multiple PIDs to operate the same. Might have made your wiring easier to do it that way versus one 100a

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Learn me here, Please....

"SSR" somethin', somethin', relay?

"PID's" ???

 

[brewman !]

Learn me here, Please....

"SSR" somethin', somethin', relay?

"PID's" ???

SSR = Solid State Relay. Its a relay without contacts that allows a small voltage/power signal to control a big voltage/power signal. In this case, a few ma @ 12VDC will control 240VAC at 50A. Search eBay for examples. By "control" I mean turn on and off, but there are VSSRs which act like dimmer switches, sort of.

Here is one. There are many.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State...403?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b983f7a3

PID = Proportional, Integral and Derivative control. Its a controller that compares where the controlled point is, where it will be and how fast its moving compared to the set point when it outputs the control signal.

The output (water temperature) in our system moves so slow that all we really need is is on/off control, but nobody builds a nice controller of that type, so "everyone" uses PID controllers instead.

 

[stlbeer]

5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.

Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time. You stated "The only way to make "use" of a 2nd SSR is to run 2 temperature set points with 2 control PIDs/ loops". That is not the case.

I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.

 

[brewman !]

Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time. You stated "The only way to make "use" of a 2nd SSR is to run 2 temperature set points with 2 control PIDs/ loops". That is not the case.

I agree that the PID controller will operate multiple SSRs that way.

I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.

Thanks !

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Thanks for the explanations, much appreciated!


I still like somethin', somethin' relay better though.......... : )

 

[RadicalEd]

I'd go for the 6/3, and install a dryer/range plug and/or some 120V receptacles on your wall. You can never have too many receptacles! And then use a dryer/range cord to hook up the panel. I wouldn't hardwire the panel straight to the system; like you alluded to, explaining that to the inspector is a hard one!

As a side note, #6 conductor cable is somewhat marginal for the intended load. It'll work so long as it has space to 'breathe'....and by that I really mean vent heat. Up in the rafters of the ceiling is fine. But if you install it in conduit you'll be exceeding the NEC ampacity limit. But you're fine on voltage drop; no worries there!

Looks like things are coming together

 

[centex99]

If you haven't bought the wire yet, I'd buy a long enough piece of 6/3 that you can then reuse and run to the new location... if you have to buy one 10' longer now and have a bit of slack in your run, at least then its not wasted and requiring another cable purchase in xx months from now when you have so many more expenses....

And in regards to servos... you really need to figure out a way to mount one to the cheap valves... and figure out what kind of torque is required to turn the valve and in turn size the servo... Most R/C hobby type stores sell a variety of servos...

Very interesting build, and I love your well thought out and detailed posts... hopefully when it starts to get more "interesting" you include tons of pictures as well...

 

[Carlscan26]

Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time.



I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.

Thanks stlbeer - this was why I asked about the 50A SSRs. I second your second comment too.


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