Zeus's rebirth. Non typical, all steam brew stand.

[Chaosbourne]

As long as the water has a pressure relief or room to expand, one could run the boiler itself completely full of water. Steam would then be created wherever the pressure is lessened in the line. However, that is not the traditional way to do it.

Traditionally the boiler would be run less than totally full with a significant steam volume in the boiler itself.

As long as the water level is lower than the top of the boiler then only steam will escape from it and the water will stay put.

It could be placed on its side, as long as the elements remain submersed. If it was laid such that the elements are horizontal, the water level would have to be just above half full.

I was researching boilers and I think that I might use a different hot water heater than the one I previously indicated.

I just read through my last post, and it was less than clear what I was asking. I kant rite real good.

What I meant was, with the water hammer problem, wouldn't bringing the steam from the top of the unit and then down to whatever height of the brew stand create the hammer problem in any lower elbow joint as well?

I'm not totally familiar with the hammer thing, but the concept makes sense. I would worry about water pooling in those lower elbows.

This is just a thought. You guys obviously have done a lot more research into this than I. (I'm working on a concept for a steam system, and your threads are showing me I have a lot more to think about than I originally thought).

 

[hedbutter]

Pipe dream or practical ? Who brews an 8 or 16 gallon batch in their kitchen ? As far as I know everyone wants to get away from brewing in the kitchen.

A fraternity brother of mine does all grain on his kitchens gas stove (commercial stove, awesome apartment). He does 5 gallons now, but wouldn't have an issue with 8th.

Honestly, pulling everything out and putting it away is going to take a max of 1-2 hours AT most. I'd take that and being close to everyone during a 6 hour brew day then out in the garage alone.

 

[brewman !]

I was thinking something more along the line of a brewstand on wheels that rolled into the kitchen. Thinking about it more, however, the isles between the counter are only 42 and 48" wide, so there isn't really room between the counter and the island to park a 20-24" brewstand in there.

However, our island is big, 5 feet x 10 feet. I could put steam or elecctric kettles up on it. The thing that bugs me though are the pump and chiller. I don't want to be running wort and water lines all over the kitchen. One always gets leaks and dribbling somewhere and the floor in our kitchen isn't really meant to withstand a bunch of liquid, especially hot liquid.

 

[brewman !]

I did a bunch of measuring and planning this weekend.

I am not going to brew in the kitchen. Its too messy, the chance of wrecking the floors is too high, the smell will be an issue and its not safe with the kids around.

I am not going to brew in the garage. I want my brewery set up and ready to use at all times. I cannot dedicate space in the garage for that. There are other issues with garage brewing as well.

I will thus be brewing in the basement. I have a couple ideas for building a dedicated brewing space, but that will require moving walls, etc. so I am not going to start that project right now.

Ultimately I think the brewery is going to sit in a windowed room behind a bar that faces our games and media room, something like this:

In the mean time, I want to get brewing ! So I'll start building and using the equipment for this setup immediately.

 

[brewman !]

There are a couple people that want to brew with me. I foresee us doing all kinds of beers in a variety of batch setups. Single 1/2 barrel batches, 5 gallon batches, double batches, split boil batches, double batch days, etc.

In order to accomodate all this variety, I am going to set each vessel up on its own stand like this.

I presently have 3 11 gallon vessels and 2 20.5 gallon vessels.

I'm doing this so that the vessels can be strategically arranged during a brew session and so that they can be compactly stored.

By strategically arranged, I mean that we could mash in one of the 20.5 gallon vessels and then boil in 2 11 gallon vessels. Or would could run 2 mashes at a time, side by side while running 2 boils. Or we could mash a big beer in a 20.5 gallon mash tun and boil it in an 11 gallon kettle.

I'm thinking that I'll have one 11 gallon mash tun and one 20.5 gallon mash tun, both on tippies.

That will leave 1 20.5 gallon boil kettle and 2 11 gallon boil kettles. If the need arises, I'll set up a second 11 gallon mash tun so that we could do 2 simultaneous small batches. Right now that seems like overkill.

Everything will be steam fired, of course.

I'm still working out the details of everything.

 

[brewman !]

Some FYIs about steam.

ASME has a special designation for "heating boilers" (Section IV). Such boilers operate at pressures less than 15PSI and at temperatures of less than 250F. Boilers above these pressures/temperatures are designated "power boilers" and are subject to more stringent standards.

The copper tubing handbook states that soldered copper tubing is rated for saturated steam at pressures up to 15PSI. At greater pressures, copper tubing needs to be brazed, which is then good for 120 PSI. See table 4 here: http://www.columbiapipe.com/documents/product_info/copper_tube_handbook1.aspx

It appears that compression fittings are not suitable for use on copper in steam service. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

Here is some further discussion.
http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/cu_tube_steam_systems.html

I don't want to use steel pipe for steam distribution because of the potential to rust. I may be injecting steam condensate directly into the mash tun and it would be nice if it wasn't rusty.

 

[brewman !]

Some potential low pressure steam hoses.

10 feet, 7 Kg/cm^2 (96 PSI), 150C,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-3M-10-F...744?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46074f4ae0

Similar hose

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160496046681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Looks pretty flexible. I bought the second hose.

There are lots of steam hoses made by Goodyear, etc, but they are >1000 PSI and very stiff. About $5 per foot. Usually 3/8 or 1/2". I like these smaller hoses.

 

[RadicalEd]

Definitely go for the brazing! Much, much stronger bond, all around.

 

[ryan_george]

Very interesting write-up so far. I appreciate all of the research you're doing and sharing with us!
I'm interested in the steam route, but more from a jacketed approach rather than injection.

I'll be watching this thread closely

 

[brewman !]

Thanks for the encouragement.

Please enlighten me. I don't understand the desire to use a steam kettle. They are expensive, rarely the right size, the pot itself is usually stainless, which has a much lower conductivity than copper and they are generally full jacket instead of 1/3 or half jacket that the beer steam kettles are.

In the back of my mind I'm wondering if a commercial steam kettle will operate properly with low pressure (15 or 30 PSI) steam. I've looked at a couple and they are generally rated for 50 PSI. The heat transfer is proportional to the temp difference, ie Tsteam - Twort. For a boil kettle, Twort is 212F. 15PSI steam is 250F, only 38 degrees above boiling. That might work with copper, but I'm wondering if it would work with stainless.

And I don't understand how you would modify one to add an output valve, etc, unless it already came with one.

So what is the desire to have one ?

I've known about steam kettles all along, but it wasn't until I realized that I could put a copper coil into a conventional kettle that I got really interested in doing this project.

The next part in my hunt is the solenoid valve, so that we can automate the temperature control. The issue is a) finding one that operates at more than 15PSI that doesn't cost a fortune. The 15PSI models are less expensive because there are lots of home heat boilers that run at 15PSI. They are called steam zone valves.

The other option is to put a servo on a regular steam ball valve. Then it could be proportional. Where does one find a big rotary servo ?

 

[brewman !]

I keep forgetting that my steam powered vessels aren't going to need a burner. Its a real mind shift for me to not have to worry about the burner.

Thus the vessels can sit on any flat surface, if I don't put a bottom drain in them, like I was thinking of doing with the mash tun. If I don't do that, a simple stainless steel table will work fine for the brewstand. I just happen to have one.

The vessels will all be light enough that I could easily set them up however I want prior to brewing.

The other thing about using a plain table for the brewstand is that I don't need a long steam hose anymore.

Having said all that, it might still be nice to have them on their own stand someday. For now I'll just use a table.

 

[brewman !]

I bought a Whirlpool 28 gallon "low boy" duel element electric hot water heater like this one.

http://www.lowes.com/Plumbing/Water.../N-1z11qhf/pl?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1

Mine is a bit different in that it has the inlet and outlet on the side instead of the top.

I'll start taking it apart and rewiring it while I wait for the pressure relief valve to arrive.

I also need to start cleaning out the area I am going to (temporarily) use for brewing.

I bought the "low boy" hot water heater because

- its smaller, so I won't waste so much water when I brew (versus a 40 gallon model)
- its shorter, so it has the potential to fit under a bench and not take up any floor space
- its larger in diameter, so the big, 6,000 watt elements will fit in it.

Now that I am actually doing something, I'll start taking pictures and posting them.

 

[brewman !]

Hydrostatic Testing

It is common practice to pressure test boilers to twice their working pressure with cold water initially and on a periodic basis as part of their certification process. Its not a coincidence that water heaters are rated to a working pressure of 150 PSI and failed during the Mythbuster episodes at pressures over 300 PSI.

Most domestic water supplies have a pressure of greater than 50-60 PSI. That means one can use the common tap pressure to test a boiler system with a working pressure of up to 25-30 PSI.

Relief Valve Selection

I will be using a 30 PSI pressure relief valve in my boiler. It is necesary to replace the stock pressure relief valve because modern hot water heater relief valves are of the temperature and pressure variety. They are commonly rated at 210F and 150 PSI, meaning that it would open when the water reached 210F, regardless of what the pressure is.

Water boils at ~212F at 0 PSIG.
Water boils at ~250F at 15 PSIG.
Water boils at ~275F at 30 PSIG.

I will be using a 30 PSI pressure relief valve. I do not plan to run my boiler much over 250F. The reason I am using a 30 PSI relief valve and not a 15 PSI relief valve is that I don't want the valve opening if the temperature accidently creeps a bit over 250F.

One of the advantages of using a PID controller is that I can dial in the boiler temp as needed. At the start of a brew session I can dial it up to 270F so that there is lots of stored energy ready to go. Near the end of the brew session I can turn it down to 215F so that as much of the energy from the boiler is used by the end of the boil as possible.

I will be using a PID controller (and SSR) to control the elements in my boiler.

Cost

The cost of my entire heating system (hot water heater, relief valve, PID controller(s), ball valves, solenoid valves, hose, 6 Kw elements, etc) will be a small fraction of the cost of what the fancy electric brewing panels seem to be costing these days, especially when you consider that my system will be 12 Kw (50A).

A 50A kit capable of running 2 elements per vessel is priced at $1900 alone, without elements and power cord.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel

 

[brewman !]

Performance

Saturated water at 275F holds 243 BTU per pound.
Saturated water at 212F holds 180 BTU per pound.

Lets say my boiler has 20 gallons of water in it and the remainder is steam. Lets neglect the energy in the steam. The water in it weighs about 160 pounds.

The amount of energy stored in the boiler available to run through a heating coil is 160 pounds x (243 - 180) = 10,000 BTU.

The amount of heat necessary to heat 8 gallons of wort from 170F to 212F is 8 x 8.33 x 42F = 2800 BTU.

The amount of heat necessary to heat 16 gallons of wort from 170F to 212F is 5600 BTU.

The amount of heat necessary to boil off a pound of wort is 970 BTU.

Neglecting heat loss in the hose and off the vessel, the energy stored in the boiler at 275F is enough to heat 16 gallons from 170F to 212F and boil off about 4 pounds of wort, before the heating elements are ever turned on.

The rate of heating when the boiler is hot will be limited by the ability of the steam coil to tranfer the heat to the wort. With a large enough steam coil the heating rate will be very fast.

The boil off rate will be limited by the heat output of the elements. 12 KW = 41,000 BTU per hour. Neglecting heat loss the boil off rate will be 41,000/970 = 41 pounds per hour or about 5 gallons per hour. This will allow conentrating wort for even a 20 gallon batch within an hour long boil. No more needing to boil 20 gallon batches for hours on end.

The other advantages of this system over an electric element system or direct fired system include

- no elements protruding into the vessels. Vessels will have steam coils, but they can be just about any shape and be located where they don't interfere with things

- large surface area for gentle heat transfer. No risk of carmelizing or burning.

- heat can be added directly to the grain in the mash tun. No recirculation required, if you don't want there to be.

- minimal heating up of the brewing area

- no need for CO/CO2 ventilation, fully suitable for use indoors

- the elements can be running full power heating the water in the boiler even when the processes are using less than full power. Ie even when the mash is needing little to no power the boiler elements can be running at full power storing energy in anticipation of the energy needed for the boil.

- no risk of running out of propane in the middle of brewing session !

- the brewstand can be a simple table versus a dedicated sculpture needed for a burner setup.

- works with just about any "pot", including Gotts and coolers, though some testing will be needed to see how plastic vessels would stand up to 275F.

- very simple power control via a ball valve. During mash steps heat can be added rapidly. Power can be dialed back when just keeping the mash tun warm between steps. In the boil kettle steam can be supplied at full rate during pre boil to get the wort up to temp and then throttled back once it comes to a boil.

- the easiest heat source to automate. One only needs to turn a small solenoid valve on and off with the controller. No gas valves, no pilot lights, no GFCIs.

- one boiler will run multiple vessels without the need for fancy logic to make sure that too much heat is being asked for at once. ie, with eBrewing you can't have too many elements on at once and the elements are either on at full power or they are off.

With steam brewing you can run as many steam coils as you want as long as the steam pressure stays up. You can run 2 mashes at once or 2 boils and a mash or whatever, as long as you aren't using more heat than what the elements can keep up with. And you can easily throttle each steam coil to ration the steam as necessary.

- extremely efficient heat transfer in the HLT and the mash tun. There is no faster way to heat water in the HLT. Recirculation not necessary for efficent heat transfer in these vessels. Only for temperature uniformity.

- vessels can be fully insulated on the sides and underneath with minimal effort.

FYI, the Sabco Nano Magic system uses a 60 KW boiler for 80 gallon uninsulated vessels, or 0.75 Kw/gallon. My system will be 12 KW for 20 gallons or 0.60 Kw/ gallon. Its just a tad lower on power for the volume I want to use it with.

Its interesting to note that while Sabco says their boiler is 60Kw, they also way its output is 104 lbs of steam per hour or 101,000 BTU per hour. Both of these are much less than 60 Kw. 101,000 BTU per hour is less than 30 Kw.

 

[brewman !]

Here is what is standing between me and getting to work on this thing !

We renovated the house but have not completed this portion of the basement. My brewery is going to temporarily sit in the corner of this space. Eventually it will have its own space, but until we figure out a few things about how we want to use the basement, its going to sit there.

This was the storage area for materials and such while the renovation was going on.

The hot water heater/boiler is in the box in the foreground to the right. The pressure relief valve has also arrived.

The wires hanging out of the ceiling are for new electrical services that were run to the kitchen, which is directly above this location. I'm going to run an 8/3 in the same route for the boiler this weekend.

 

[StMarcos]

I know you're a bit into this but I would highly recommend you return the condensate to the boiler. You won't need a condensate return pump for such a simple/small system. Especially if you purge the air from the system at startup, you will be fine without stainless lines. I'm recommending this because you seem like an efficiency junkie, and it will help noticeably.

 

[brewman !]

There isn't that much energy lost in the condensate.

Water at 212F has 218 BTU/lb. Water at 70 has about 70 BTU/lb. The difference is 140 BTU per pound. A typical brew session is going to use about 30,000 BTU = 30 pounds of condensate. 30 x 140 BTU/lb = 4200 BTU. 1 KWHr = 3412 BTU. So its a bit more than 1 KWHr (10 cents) per brewing session. For that cost I won't implement a condensate capture and pump system.

Furthermore, that hot water could be put to good use cleaning, rinsing or flushing or it could be added to the HLT for the next batch.

 

[brewman !]

Progress !

The kettles are 44 quart (11 gallon) Bayou Classics. I have 82 quart kettles as well. They are in storage right now.

Meet Mr. Boiler.

The water heater is rated at 3,000 watts. I has 2 ports for elements. The bottom port has a 3,000 watt element. The top port doesn't have an element in it. Just a plug. Fine by me. I need to rewire it and replace both elements with 6,000 watters anyway.

One good thing about this hot water heater is that the top element is relatively low in the tank. That means the boiler can be run for a long time before it would uncover (and burn out) the top element.

This hot water heater has side ports and an anode going in from the top. I'll make the anode port my steam outlet and I probably won't use the anode. FYI, anode ports are 3/4" NPT just like the rest of the ports on the heater.

Here is the valve that keeps things safe. Its factory set and non adjustable at 30 PSI. It cost $50.

I hope to get a lot more done this weekend.

I am very happy to be brewing in the basement. So much more comfortable than the garage and much better than the kitchen too.

Remember that this is all just a temporary set up. This equipment won't be installed permanently until the brewery room gets built.

The wall behind the brew kettles is slated for some sort of a renovation, so I am not too worried about damaging it. It was put in by the builder. A bar of sorts is supposed to reside there when we are done renovating the basement. The area where I am setting up the brewery is supposed to be a games area, with a pool table and such. I'm telling everyone this so I don't get questions about why I am not building things permanently right where it sits.

The other thing going through my head is how much this brew setup has changed since the Zeus I design. There was no way to get 50-100A into my old garage and the basement in our old house had no room for brewing without a really major reno, so I had no choice but to use gas. Luckily I have none of those problems with the new house. Even if I do end up brewing in the garage in this house, I still prefer steam over natgas, provided it works OK.

 

[RadicalEd]

For the love of all that is good in this world, use metric units! These English units are sooooo much harder to work with.

Also, I noted a slight thermo mistake; you are using gauge pressure when you should be using absolute pressure.

250ºF~=121.1ºC
30 PSI~=2 bar (gauge) or ~=200kPA (gauge) or (3 and 300 absolute)
Real temperature more like: 133ºC = 271 ºF
Enthalpy ~= 561kJ/kg

condensate water:
100ºC
1 bar
419kJ/kg

Energy available in 1 kg condensate: 561-461=~100 kJ/kg

Specific heat of water: approx 4.2 kJ/kg/ºC

1kg water raises 16 gallons (60.6L and/or kg) 100/(60.6*4.2)= 0.39ºC

170ºF = 76.7ºC....therefore need to raise 100-76.6=23.4ºC--> 60kg->60L->15.85 gal of pressured water in the tank.

If you have 20 gallons, you then get the heat capacity to boil (100kJ/kg available energy) *15kG condensate / (2257kJ/kg boiled to steam) = 1500/2257 kg boiled to steam....or a measly .66L of water boiled off. Before your heating elements kick in.

I personally think that you have really constrained yourself with the low pressure of 30 PSIg. Your overall boiling efficiency would skyrocket; remember that all the energy you put into the water to get it to 100ºC goes right down the drain. You are only 'using' the energy of the water from its 133º steam state to its 100ºC steam state....I'm not sure you can count on the boiling temperature of the wort being less than the condensing temp of the steam, so you may well not get that energy of condensation. A condensate return line would help to mitigate these energy losses...somewhat. But I do believe that you'd need a return pump, or you'd be relying on natural circulation, which is a fickle beast.

Feel free to poke holes in my maths. I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical! But I did enjoy the mental exercise .

 

[brewman !]

Progress !

It took a long time to sort through and organize that pile ! Now the real work can begin.

 

[brewman !]

For the love of all that is good in this world, use metric units! These English units are sooooo much harder to work with.

I agree, but its the same math either way.

I'm using imperial because most people here talk about burners in BTUs and strike and mashing temps in F and grain bills in pounds and boil sizes in gallons.

If you work in metric you are continually going back and forth, or at least I find I do. So I stay in imperial units.

Also, I noted a slight thermo mistake; you are using gauge pressure when you should be using absolute pressure.

250ºF~=121.1ºC
30 PSI~=2 bar (gauge) or ~=200kPA (gauge) or (3 and 300 absolute)
Real temperature more like: 133ºC = 271 ºF

I agree with everything to this point.

I went back and forth between running at 15 PSIG (~250F) and 30 PSIG (~275F). That is probably why you thought I got PSIA and PSIG mixed up. I don't think I did, but lets move on.

Enthalpy ~= 561kJ/kg

condensate water:
100ºC
1 bar
419kJ/kg

Energy available in 1 kg condensate: 561-461=~100 kJ/kg

Mistake here... 561-419 = 142 KJ/Kg.

Specific heat of water: approx 4.2 kJ/kg/ºC

1kg water raises 16 gallons (60.6L and/or kg) 100/(60.6*4.2)= 0.39ºC

1 KG of saturated water raises 16 gallons (60.6L or Kg) 142 /(60.6 & 4.2) = 0.558 C.

170ºF = 76.7ºC....therefore need to raise 100-76.6=23.4ºC--> 60kg->60L->15.85 gal of pressured water in the tank.

Yes. So 23.4C/ 0.558 C/Kg = ~42 Kg of water = 42 litres of water = 11 gallons.

My boiler is 26 gallons, about which 20 gallons will be water and the remainder steam.

So the energy stored in a fully charged boiler (133C) will easily heat the 16 gallons from strike to the point of boiling.

If you have 20 gallons, you then get the heat capacity to boil (100kJ/kg available energy) *15kG condensate / (2257kJ/kg boiled to steam) = 1500/2257 kg boiled to steam....or a measly .66L of water boiled off. Before your heating elements kick in.

I'm not following your math here. Here is mine in metric.

20 gallons of saturated water = 75.7 litres = 75.7 Kg.

We previously agreed that saturated water going from 133C @ 3bar to 100C @ 1 bar will give up 142 KJ/Kg.

Thus the water in the boiler will release 75.7 Kg x 142Kj/Kg = 10,750 KJ as saturated steam vapour. If this steam has an enthalpy of 2257 KJ/Kg then it will be 4.76 Kg of saturated steam.

If the heat transfer between the boiler and the kettle is efficient, basically 1 Kg of steam released from the boiler is going to boil off 1 Kg of water from the wort.

I personally think that you have really constrained yourself with the low pressure of 30 PSIg. Your overall boiling efficiency would skyrocket; remember that all the energy you put into the water to get it to 100ºC goes right down the drain. You are only 'using' the energy of the water from its 133º steam state to its 100ºC steam state....I'm not sure you can count on the boiling temperature of the wort being less than the condensing temp of the steam, so you may well not get that energy of condensation. A condensate return line would help to mitigate these energy losses...somewhat. But I do believe that you'd need a return pump, or you'd be relying on natural circulation, which is a fickle beast.

You ensure that the steam condenses in the steam coil by running it at a very slight pressure higher than atmosphere. Maybe its at 1.2 bar absolute. As long as the steam condenses before exiting the steam coil, all the steam energy is released into the kettle.

Every steam kettle system works on the principal that the steam condenses in the kettle. If it doesn't, then you are right, it doesn't release very much energy. 80% or more of the energy in 133C saturated steam is stored in the phase change. If you don't capture the energy of the phase change, then you don't get much.

You do lose the enthalpy of the saturated water at 100C, but as I've shown before, that isn't a whole lot. In this case its 4.76 Kg of steam condensate x 419 KJ/Kg = 1995 KJ.

Total heat delivered from the boiler was 10,750 KJ.

Total energy lost as condensate = 1995 KJ

Efficiency is (10,750 - 1995) KJ / 10,750 KJ = 81.4%.

And the boil is the poorest efficiency. If steam is injected directly in the HLT and mash tun, the efficiency is 100%.

And the condensate is only wasted if its dumped. If its used for washing or strike water for the next batch, its not wasted at all. What brewery doesn't need hot water ?

Furthermore, I've researched a number of commercial steam breweries. Almost all of them operate at less than 50 PSIG and most operate at around 30 PSIG.

 

[brewman !]

From the Sabco Nano Magic brochure:

Mash and Boil Kettles
80 Gallon ( 375 liters ) capacity
Quad-Leg, 304 Stainless, #4 finish, 47"W x 39"D x 43"T
Full 95 deg.Tilting mechanism (worm drive ) makes cleaning easy.
2/3 steam jacket with 50psi rating
50 psi chrome plated Safety Valve
High capacity pouring lip
Condensate drain Valve with insulated handle
NSF and ASME approvals
SS lift off covers ( Boil & Mash )
2" Tri-Clamp end, center drain outlet plumbing
Stainless, false bottom with drain support in Mash kettle
Mash & Boil are temp. monitored / controlled via PLC touchcreen.
Each vessel utilizes a Class A, RTD sensor for accurate temp. target acquisition
Variable stand pipes in boil for effective trub separation.

The kettles have a 50 PSI safety valve, so they will be operated at a pressure lower than that. Say 40 PSI.

Also note the condensate drain valve.

The efficiency of operating at 40 or 50 PSIG will be better as the steam will carry more energy but the condensate loss will stay the same. But, as I have shown, 30 PSIG is better than 80% for boiling purposes the way it is. How much difference is another 5% efficiency going to make ?

Furthermore, the Sabco system uses SS kettles, which have a lower heat conductivity. They need a higher temperature to get high energy transfer. I'll be using copper coils in my kettles.

My hot water heater is rated for 150 PSIG. I wouldn't be afraid to run it at 40 or 50 PSIG. However, it gets hard to find valves that are rated for those temps and pressures, and at some point the insulation on the hot water heater will start melting.

 

[RadicalEd]

Ahhhhhh, so I did make a few mistakes, most notably the transposed 6 and 1 . That does shift the enthalpy numbers somewhat favorably.

The slightly elevated pressure is an 'oh duh' thing; do you have a plan for that yet? I vaguely recollect you talking about an outlet valve, but I don't know what sort of valve would be good for producing that desired effect, especially since you probably want to keep it at a given pressure, not just at a constant position.

But I do think my math (as corrected to 416 vs 461) is still valid for the amount you could boil off with the energy in the water in the tank. As noted, the metric you had used earlier was 'raise 16 gallons from 170 to 212 and boil off x amount'. So you need to subtract out the energy you're sending out for the temp raising, which means you really only have (20-11) = 9 gallons of energy equivalent to drive boiling of the water. So instead of driving off 4.76kg, you'll drive off 2.6kg with the remaining energy. Of course, by then the elements would have kicked in and be generating more steam for you, so not a big deal .

 

[brewman !]

I don't disagree with anything you said above.

I have couple of ideas for maintaining pressure in the steam coils and dealing with the condensate. Stay tuned.

I purposely did not combine the calcs for heating up the sparge water and boiling off wart for reasons of clarity.

You are correct to say that less stored energy is going to be available for the boil off after the wort has been heated from 170 to 212. The discussion was hypothetical in the first place as 12 Kw of elements are going to kick in as soon as the temp in the boiler drops.

The reason I discussed it in the first place was to illustrate that temperature steps will be able to be accomplished very quickly, assuming the steam coil is suitably sized, because the system won't be relying soley on the power of the elements, but rather it can use the power from the stored steam in addition to the power supplied by the elements.

Edit: The steam hose arrived. I got the sink and worktop mounted. I'll post pictures in a bit. I'm going to be swamped for the next few days, but I'll pick away at things as time allows.

I can't wait to get this thing running !

 

[RadicalEd]

Agreed. Step temp changes should be very, very fast .

 

[brewman !]

I moved the boiler into the corner and mounted the sink and a SS work table top I picked up at a metal recycler. Those following the Zeus I design will recognize it as the fold down extension on the brew stand.

I put the boiler in the corner because I thought it made better use of the space in the corner between the sink and the brewing table. Basically, I didn't like having a kettle in that area.

Remember, this is a temporary installation. I'll build a permanent brewery once we figure out some of the other changes we are making to the basement. Nevertheless, I think it will be a worthwhile exercise to assemble everything prior to that and use it, as one inevitably learns a few things along the way that affect the plans. That was certainly the case for other renos done to the house.

The elements arrived. I bought the socket for them too. The elements were $18 each and the socket was $14. Plus shipping. They are 6,000 watts each @ 240VAC. It will take a 50A breaker to run the boiler alone. Camco part #02613. They extend about 13.5" into the vessel. The package DOES NOT say "Ultra low watt density" anywhere, though the advertisement for them said "Low watt density". It will be interesting to see how long they last with the water being 275F instead of less than 175F.

Here is the steam hose. It was $20, plus shipping. With the change in design I no longer need a hose 10 feet long, but it will still work. Its used on commercial steam irons.

I'll replace it with a shorter one some day. I have use for a longer one in another brewing application we'll talk about later... LOL.

Next up: plumbing and wiring.

PS: As you may have noticed, I edit my posts about 10X after the initial post. If you have a question or are going to reply, you may want to wait 15 minutes after I post for me to finish my dribble.

 

[RadicalEd]

hmmmm, what it that socket part #? Seems like a much cheaper alternative to some of the other brewing specific sockets!

 

[brewman !]

Its Camco 09953.

$12 here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003B40APC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I bought mine at the same place as the elements, thus paid a bit more, but saved having a separate shipment.

The heater elements are a standard 1 1/2 hex. However, these sockets are 6 point and have a very nice fit. I didn't want to chance rounding an element nut off using a poor fitting 12 point socket.

 

[RadicalEd]

Aaaaaah, I see. I mistook the 'socket' (as in wrench) for something else (socket as in electrical receptacle) . Specifically, I thought it was an alternative to:

http://www.brewhardware.com/rimsherms-parts-93/176-elementparts

which would have been really cool . Whoops!

 

[brewman !]

Aaaaaah, I see. I mistook the 'socket' (as in wrench) for something else (socket as in electrical receptacle) . Specifically, I thought it was an alternative to:

http://www.brewhardware.com/rimsherms-parts-93/176-elementparts

which would have been really cool . Whoops!

No problem.