Yorkshire Square on a home level?

[user 246304]

Alright, I know this is nuts.

I love Northern England ales (well, I also love Burton ales. And London ales. And....). I've also always been intrigued by both the Burton Union and Yorkshire Square systems.

Regarding the Yorkshire Square system, pretty zany. Getting shot through a fan spreader up and over the krausen every few hours belies all "laws" of brewing. But these are highly flocculant, laid back hippy yeast, that need to be told to go back to work. Repeatedly.

So - let's try it at home!

So, let's do it in stainless!

So, I suck at engineering!

As if I don't have enough planning to do - anyone have any thoughts?

 

[McKnuckle]

I was in England last month and saw Black Sheep's squares, along with Marston's Burton Union setup. Yowzah. Turns out that Black Sheep still brews in a similar way, but with stainless cylindrical open fermenters. The old slate squares are still there and get used for one of their beers - I think possibly Riggwelter - but the newer ones are employed for most of the brewing. So slate linings are not, it doesn't seem, a significant factor.

The most important part of the fabled square, I would think, is the geometry of a relatively wide, open vessel. They rouse the yeast for 6 minutes at a time, every 3 hours, for the first 3 days of fermentation (checking my notes). How to do that on our scale without making a hella mess... seems daunting. The open fermenter part is not so tough.

I have a deep stainless pan that I found on Amazon which holds about 2.4 gallons so I can ferment a small batch. I tried it only once so far, with half the batch fermented in a carboy for comparison. I screwed up and left most of the yeast behind when I racked the beer to a closed fermenter after the first few days. Fermentation practically died after that. So I have to give it another shot.

 

[user 246304]

Very cool McKnuckle - what an incredible trip! Thanks for the notes. Yeah, agree, there'd have to be a lot in place (and I'm nowhere close) to deal with this kind of fermentation. A dude can dream......

Would love to hear how your ferments proceed. I did know that Black Sheep uses round "squares" but wasn't aware they've retained one slate square for brewing - and if it's Riggwelter all the better, as I love that ale. I haven't had it in too long.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and info!

Edit: Just glanced through the "Brewery Fermentations" chapter of my copy of Malting and Brewing Science V. II. He mentions "the distance between opposite cooling walls should be no wider than 16 ft., assuming that the depth is no greater than 9 feet."

You probably have this McKnuckle, but for others, MBS has a couple of pages devoted to both the Union and Squares systems. PP. 672-673. For the (traditional, square) Squares: McKnuckle would be able to answer whether these things are still more or less as described below, but things I didn't know about:

-The beer is filled in the bottom well, overflowing so the top deck is filled to about an inch in depth;

-There are "organ pipes" situated throughout, through which the risen beer flows back down to the bottom section;

-There is a central manhole with a a 15 cm flange around it, which withholds the yeast while the beer flows down through the pipes.

The beer is drawn from the bottom well and pumped up and through a "fish tail", which obviously aerates and rouses the yeast forcefully.

Eventually the process is stopped, the yeast is skimmed out of the upper compartment, and the beer is racked out of the lower compartment. "It is claimed the process gives distinctive flavors."

 

[McKnuckle]

Paul, let me just add that I share your fascination with these beer styles. I was practically jumping out of my skin while on these brewery tours. I could hardly focus enough on the sights, sounds, smells, and whatever the guide was saying, not to mention sneaking around trying to capture illicit photos and taking notes!

I am working on a Theakston's Old Peculier recipe right now. Happy to chat about English beers and learn/experiment with kindred spirits such as yourself!

 

[user 246304]

Yikes. Holy Cow. Jumping out of my skin just reading you, McKnuckle!!! That's so cool! OP, that's another beer I miss like crazy - haven't had it since living in Chicago. Please post how it's going!

Well done, man. What an experience. When my wife and I were in England, we got as far as Stoke-on-Trent and went to Titanic, met the burly brewer Ian who as I understand it now has his own brewery. It was great just to go there, to see the different approach between a traditional English, and my own brewery (Goose Island, very intense on lab work, QC points and assays, etc.).

I've sworn next time we go, it's the islands, and it's North England. Though our son has to walk Warwickshire (including the castle) with us.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have never been to a brewery anywhere else, actually. The places we toured were mostly classics - Theakston, Hook Norton, Marston, and Fullers. Black Sheep is of course much newer. We had tastings in several other places too, such as York Brewery and the National Brewing Centre (Museum) in Burton-on-Trent. And too many pubs to mention.

The old breweries are so traditional and the equipment is often quite old and relatively primitive, yet still in service. Not everywhere of course, but it's surprising and refreshing to see examples of that. They figured out how to do things and make "their" beer consistently and reliably, so they change nothing unless it's warranted. Compare with us home brewers and our constant tweaking.

I loved the hills and dales of Yorkshire, Derbyshire, and the Cotswolds. But I digress. Of all these wonderful breweries, Theakston really stood out for me, and OP in particular was a luscious beer. I have been poring over online references and of course, nobody really has a definitive recipe. But I've got some good clues I think, so I'll give it a shot and talk about it here if it works out.

Theakston was perhaps the most antiquated brewery (along with Hook Norton, so cool...). Black Sheep was far more modern, with a much more developed commercial/tourist adjunct (nice restaurant, etc.). But despite that, Theakston topped their beers in my opinion.

 

[user 246304]

Awesome, McKnuckle. We stayed at the Pear Tree Inn and hanging with the locals (one not so local - beer writer for the Financial Times, Peter Millar, looking at his card right now) drinking Hook Norton. Pretty special to drink with Lorry men in their yellow jackets and guys from the city like Peter, who come for good beer. Did you guys happen to stay at the Pear Tree as well?

Thanks for the additional travel notes. Man, you hit some ringers! With you, I loved Hook Norton. It's the only imperial pint glass I have in the house, and man, I hope that doesn't break. I still dream of a gravity fed tower brewery, like Hook Norton. Awesome to meet - what was it at the time, Phil and Ted, the draft horses, with their bowler hats? Delivering beer over the local areas?

This has brought back a lot of memories, man, thanks for sharing. And good luck drawing up that OP recipe. Looking forward to it.

 

[McKnuckle]

Paul,

We were en route to somewhere else when we toured Hook Norton, so no, we didn't stay at that Inn. I do have photos with the horses, though! They were getting saddled up to make a beer run at the time of our visit. So cool.

I'm sure we could babble and reminisce at length about this topic. But back to Yorkshire squares just in case anyone else is actually reading this; I'm not entirely convinced that they matter much. I know that's counter to the romance of it all. Open fermentation, though, yes, probably; it must add esters to the picture. But maybe there are other ways to achieve that, or at least something similar, being that we don't even have access to the same yeast.

There is a "Can You Brew It" episode where the Black Sheep brewer is interviewed, and if you listen closely and take notes, he details their fermentation schedule, which is different from home brew mantra in a few ways:

Pitch at 63F. Allow to freely rise to 68F (24-36 hours). Hold at 68F and ferment for 3 days. Drop to 50F slowly over the course of 36 hours. Hold at 50F for 2 days to settle (he called this low temp a diacetyl rest). Transfer off yeast to conditioning tank. Hold at 50F an additional 5-7 days, then package.

The drop to 50F after full-on fermentation is supposed to preserve some esters and character, rather than keeping the beer on the yeast at a warm temp so it can "clean up." Apparently we don't want it to fully clean up, or we'll waste some nice flavors. Home brewers talk a lot about their 2 and 3 week primary timelines, because, well, the beer really needs to be done and it has to clean itself up, and all that.

Now, it's true that when we bottle, we can't afford to have a couple of gravity points remaining or we may be in trouble. But if we keg, I don't see how it matters, and we can take advantage of a more typical pro brewery ferm timeline, and possibly enjoy some additional fringe benefits.

I tried this with a bitter I just brewed. It took WY1469 to 72% attenuation, 1.050 to 1.014, very nice mouthfeel. The beer has not fully bloomed yet but it's tasting pretty good. Any flaws are with my recipe, not the process I followed. Anyway, just a few thoughts...

 

[LarMoeCur]

I love english beer flavors! I've read a lot about open fermentation on the homebrew level using just a bucket. I think you will get a lot of the characteristics your looking for. Now will you the same in a cylinder vise a square? Those little dead spot in the corners will they really make a big difference? Like mentioned above many have change over to open top cylinders.

I thought of building a cube from wood and lining the inside with stainless sheet metal. Using a lot of silicone and nuts and bolts. It could work. 1x1x1 is about 7.5 gallons. Then the reality struck where would I put an open fermenter? I barely have enough room for my brewing equipment in the garage. My fermentation chamber uses an A/C unit. So, I would be blowing nasty air over the top trying to keep it cool. Inside my house is like Grand Central Station with animals and people. I quickly dropped the idea all together.

 

[McKnuckle]

Then the reality struck where would I put an open fermenter?

Exactly. That's what I realized too. It needs temp control, which I can't provide unless I put the fermenter in a fridge. And then it's moist air pumped through lord-knows-what doing the cooling. It's not practical. If you want to do a Belgian in warmer temps, okay, interesting, that's supposed to be a bit funky. But not a proper English ale, no thank you!

 

[user 246304]

Great post, McKnuckle. If the podcast is this one, I started it yesterday and will look forward to listening to it. Yeah, I'm not sure it does anything either, that couldn't be done by regular open-fermenter, rousing practice. I certainly see the need - apparently the yeast is as lazy as it comes and this was just one way to deal with that. I've seen only anecdotal mentions or cursory indications in the scientific texts (as in M & BS II). It would be good to read some scientific literature on the subject, because I do find the practice fascinating.

Interesting fermentation schedule, too. I'm trying to find a way to dry hop inside that schedule, because I'd love to try to work it in and see how it goes. Taking this from Matt Brynildson, I dry hop with slurry near but not at the end of primary, give it 3 days, rack off and crash. But because I'll be bottle conditioning, that, too needs to be worked out. Taking it to 50 might be a nice way in - I can see a nice way to thread a few needs inside this schedule.

Thanks again.

 

[user 246304]

I love english beer flavors! I've read a lot about open fermentation on the homebrew level using just a bucket. I think you will get a lot of the characteristics your looking for. Now will you the same in a cylinder vise a square? Those little dead spot in the corners will they really make a big difference? Like mentioned above many have change over to open top cylinders.

I thought of building a cube from wood and lining the inside with stainless sheet metal. Using a lot of silicone and nuts and bolts. It could work. 1x1x1 is about 7.5 gallons. Then the reality struck where would I put an open fermenter? I barely have enough room for my brewing equipment in the garage. My fermentation chamber uses an A/C unit. So, I would be blowing nasty air over the top trying to keep it cool. Inside my house is like Grand Central Station with animals and people. I quickly dropped the idea all together.

Yep, I hear you. Haven't even gotten past the "where the heck would this go" phase. I brew outdoors. Our temps go anywhere from high 90's or low 100's down to 0F, or lower. Ideally, I'd just fill a CCV and roll it into a perfectly controlled chamber in the garage, but that's going to be tough to manage. So most likely, as always, a half-barrel sanke will be carted up the stairs and inside (difference now, as opposed to 15 years or so ago: a strapping 16 year old, maniac weightlifting, lad). No dedicated room with a HEPA filter for air, so yeah, I know. Still musing, though.

MrMcKnuckle would speak to this more than I could, but I believe Black Sheep went to round "squares" specifically to deal with those dead corners....not for some "character" thing, as that is taken up by the regime of draining and respraying over the yeast, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[user 246304]

Exactly. That's what I realized too. It needs temp control, which I can't provide unless I put the fermenter in a fridge. And then it's moist air pumped through lord-knows-what doing the cooling. It's not practical. If you want to do a Belgian in warmer temps, okay, interesting, that's supposed to be a bit funky. But not a proper English ale, no thank you!

WHAT is the problem, fellas?

Sheesh. No imagination. SWMBO already gave me the green light. Except I have to keep it vacuumed, which may kill the deal.

 

[McKnuckle]

If I built that, it would leak in 1,000 places. I dig the open windows, though. Good temp control solution.

 

[user 246304]

Tell me about it, lol. Don't know from where, but apparently it's whiskey wash. Yumm.

So, getting fairly geeked with the idea. Been reading several threads and looking into SN, Anchor, Geary's, euro-breweries, etc. Came across this thread and (check out the coolship from Cantillon in post 23, and this awesome DIY out of ss in post 28). I have a coolbot which used to control my cheese cave (I also had a humidity controller that I misted up and over the space with a ducting sock system - both worked perfectly, very happy I have these controllers). If I can find a way to filter incoming air, the surfaces can be sanitized. The drag is it's in my basement, and I'm brewing outside. Makes me appreciate an electric rig all the more, though I'm partial to flame. So, I have to find a way to transfer the cooled, green wort to this basement fermentation chamber. I have sankes, which we could get downstairs, and I could transfer from there. Not a fan of moving beer, though, more than absolutely necessary.

It crosses my mind: I traditionally have underpitched a lot of my ales, when I am looking for estery qualities. Here, clearly, the faster you get it all rocking, the less likely you will get nailed by contaminating factors. In your travels through the traditional breweries, did you happen to discuss pitching rates?

Edit: On the open fermenter - it looks to me like just a touch under 1:1, touch wider. What do you all think?

 

[LarMoeCur]

I've always pitched a good health starter with an English yeast. I get plenty of ester flavor from it. If the beer under attenuates it will be sickly sweet tasting. A flavor that I hate!

 

[redarmy990]

I have a receipe for Old Pec if any one is interested, I am originally from Yorkshire.

I was wanting a Barnsley bitter receipe and my Dad sent me a book over from the 1970s

It has a old peculier receipe in there.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Redarmy. I'd imagine we'd all be interested. Would you mind posting it? Can I ask which book it was your dad sent?

Many thanks again. Nice and beautiful country you come from.

 

[McKnuckle]

@redarmy990 go for it. Would be very pleased to review it along with all the other ones I've seen! (Perhaps it's even one of them.) My recipe attempt #1 is finally done being tweaked and is ready for brewing. I'm not quite willing to share it yet because it's totally unproven. Should be cooking it up within a few days.

Thank you

P.S. The thing I purchased was a stainless steel steam pan, like this one, I think mine is smaller (Amazon should show a range of them near the bottom of the page):

https://www.amazon.com/Winco-SPF6-6-Inch-Pan-Full/dp/B001VZ6XP4/ref=pd_sim_79_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B001VZ6XP4&pd_rd_r=D0SGBP078T984X4PW8PG&pd_rd_w=qTUCW&pd_rd_wg=RUu70&psc=1&refRID=D0SGBP078T984X4PW8PG

 

[user 246304]

McKnuckle, looks like your pan holds just over 7 gallons. Nice. And great aspect ratio, IMO. I'll be looking for something like this for about 12 gallons, though I think that's doubtful. Kind of bummed - I used to have a restaurant. I have a ton of stuff, but my hotel pans are either full, and very shallow, or half-pans and deep.

 

[madscientist451]

Alright, I know this is nuts.

I
Regarding the Yorkshire Square system, pretty zany. Getting shot through a fan spreader up and over the krausen every few hours belies all "laws" of brewing.

So - let's try it at home!

As if I don't have enough planning to do - anyone have any thoughts?

A few years ago, someone in my homebrew club mentioned he was putting together a square fermenter and insisted that the geometry of the vessel and the process was the main reason the beer tasted the way it was.
I started hunting around for information and came across the CYBI Black Sheep Riggwelter Ale episode, where they were able to clone the beer with standard homebrew equipment. So yesterday, I went back and skimmed through the podcast again (didn't listen to the whole thing) and in the interview with the brewer from Black Sheep, the oxygenation of the fermenting wort, which was done by drawing wort and yeast out of the bottom and spraying on top of the yeast/wort, greatly added to the flavor and "creaminess" of the beer. But Jamil stated he fermented the beer in a Better Bottle Carboy like he normally would. The tasting panel claimed the beer was cloned, even the creaminess was the same. Jamil did go on to say if someone wanted to do an open fermentation in a bucket you might get more fruity esters, but the lack of that flavor component wasn't mentioned by anyone on the tasting panel. Note that Jamil even subbed out different hops, using EKG instead of Challenger and the beer was still cloned.
So, is it necessary to use a square fermenter? I'd say no.
Is it necessary to rig up a sprayer and oxygenate the wort while fermenting? Again, it doesn't seem so.
The WY 1469 yeast seems like the #1 key ingredient, with the fermentation schedule/handling of the beer #2 and using the proper English malts would be #3 in importance.
Years ago, after listening to the podcast, and doing some other research, I wanted to do a series of beers with the 1469 yeast, but I didn't have temp control yet, put the project on the back burner, and forgot all about it; thanks to the OP for posting.
My plan now is to get the 1469 yeast and do at least 3 beers: start with 2 gallons an Oat mild recipe to build up the yeast , then re-pitch into the Black Sheep Riggwelter clone, and then look for another clone recipe, maybe Theakston Old Peculier, Or maybe a Samuel Smith Old Tadcaster.

 

[McKnuckle]

Just to add another opinion to the mix... Masham, Yorkshire is the home to both Black Sheep and Theakston's breweries. They share a family history, but that's not pertinent. In my humble personal opinion, the Theakston's beers were softer, maltier, creamier, and had more luscious flavors than each of the similar Black Sheep beers. Of course they were all yummy. But I visited Theakston first, so I don't think it's some sort of bias based on tasting sequence.

Theakston uses open fermenters, but they are rectangular and made of stainless steel. They did not appear to have any of the showerhead spray apparatus attached (unless they were removed - my photos don't show them). Their yeast is different from Black Sheep (as both are different from the Timothy Taylor WY1469). Anyway, "everything matters," but perhaps with so many variables, each individual one is not super critical. I like madscientist's thinking regarding the priorities (yeast, temps, malts).

 

[Hanglow]

I'm sure someone on Jims Beer Kit made a scaled down yorkshire square out of stainless but I can't find it. Would be quite a cool addition to anyones home brew set up though! I have seen some people just use those square PP boxes you get from IKEA too, I believe they sell some that are food safe

I would though, if trying to get closer to the beers made with them commercially, try and replicate the depth of it on a homebrew scale rather than a scaled down version of the geometry. Here's what Graham Wheeler has had to say on it

"The biggest impact on fermentation performance is vessel depth. Our vessels are far too shallow and we really need something like a 6-foot high drainpipe of suitable diameter as a fermentation vessel to achieve true-to-type yeast performance. The optimum vessel depth from victorian times onwards has been regarded as six feet and ever since almost all traditional breweries have vessels a little over six feet (to allow some headroom).

Even the Brewing Research Institute and The National Collection of Yeast Cultures do small scale yeast trials in what I think are called " Tall - tube fermenters", which are six-foot long test tubes that look like yard-of-ale glasses, only two yards long of course.

Some old-time traditional breweries swear by "rounds"; others by "squares" as fermentation vessels. The old Everards brewery in Burton used rounds, as did one of the now defunct Oxford breweries.

Small breweries used rounds because you could use traditional cooperage techniques to make your vessels, or have them made by local coopers.

I suspect that one reason Yorkshire used squares was because it has got to be ruddy difficult to make rounds out of slate, although I am sure that someone has done it. "


Also, just thinking about the "double drop" that a lot of breweries used to use, like Brakspear and I think Fullers - with fermentors of proper height for english yeasts, you could try that technique too - takes the beer off the cold break and re-aerates once for good measure. With homebrew buckets being the wrong size, trying this often results in a stuck/slow fermentation as too much yeast is also removed

 

[user 246304]

A few years ago, someone in my homebrew club mentioned he was putting together a square fermenter and insisted that the geometry of the vessel and the process was the main reason the beer tasted the way it was.
I started hunting around for information and came across the CYBI Black Sheep Riggwelter Ale episode, where they were able to clone the beer with standard homebrew equipment. So yesterday, I went back and skimmed through the podcast again (didn't listen to the whole thing) and in the interview with the brewer from Black Sheep, the oxygenation of the fermenting wort, which was done by drawing wort and yeast out of the bottom and spraying on top of the yeast/wort, greatly added to the flavor and "creaminess" of the beer. But Jamil stated he fermented the beer in a Better Bottle Carboy like he normally would. The tasting panel claimed the beer was cloned, even the creaminess was the same. Jamil did go on to say if someone wanted to do an open fermentation in a bucket you might get more fruity esters, but the lack of that flavor component wasn't mentioned by anyone on the tasting panel. Note that Jamil even subbed out different hops, using EKG instead of Challenger and the beer was still cloned.
So, is it necessary to use a square fermenter? I'd say no.
Is it necessary to rig up a sprayer and oxygenate the wort while fermenting? Again, it doesn't seem so.
The WY 1469 yeast seems like the #1 key ingredient, with the fermentation schedule/handling of the beer #2 and using the proper English malts would be #3 in importance.
Years ago, after listening to the podcast, and doing some other research, I wanted to do a series of beers with the 1469 yeast, but I didn't have temp control yet, put the project on the back burner, and forgot all about it; thanks to the OP for posting.
My plan now is to get the 1469 yeast and do at least 3 beers: start with 2 gallons an Oat mild recipe to build up the yeast , then re-pitch into the Black Sheep Riggwelter clone, and then look for another clone recipe, maybe Theakston Old Peculier, Or maybe a Samuel Smith Old Tadcaster.

Great post - many thanks, Madscientist. I've got the podcast to the "right" of this tab and need to listen to it today. Clearing out unneeded stuff and yesterday most of it was spent smelting lead into ingots....'nother story.

This is great information. Is the clone recipe inside the podcast, then? I mean, for Riggwelter?

 

[user 246304]

Just to add another opinion to the mix... Masham, Yorkshire is the home to both Black Sheep and Theakston's breweries. They share a family history, but that's not pertinent. In my humble personal opinion, the Theakston's beers were softer, maltier, creamier, and had more luscious flavors than each of the similar Black Sheep beers. Of course they were all yummy. But I visited Theakston first, so I don't think it's some sort of bias based on tasting sequence.

Theakston uses open fermenters, but they are rectangular and made of stainless steel. They did not appear to have any of the showerhead spray apparatus attached (unless they were removed - my photos don't show them). Their yeast is different from Black Sheep (as both are different from the Timothy Taylor WY1469). Anyway, "everything matters," but perhaps with so many variables, each individual one is not super critical. I like madscientist's thinking regarding the priorities (yeast, temps, malts).

Another thoughtful post, thanks McKnuckle. So I've been thinking about this. It's probably ludicrous to try to emulate the Square method, with the fishtail spray et al; but rousing, I think, will be a definite must. I will be using 1469 for all my beers, for the foreseeable future, to come to know the nature and peculiar needs of the strain. So I envision top-cropping, rousing, and all the rest.

In my experience in England, they simply mixed everything back down with a paddle - much as they do must in ferment. In one instance, he used his hand (which I thought amazing - he was proud to talk of the strength of his ancient, acclimated yeast). Anything you see here, fellas? Presume either a round (Black Sheep in Miniature!) or square vessel, with the right aspect ratio.

 

[user 246304]

I'm sure someone on Jims Beer Kit made a scaled down yorkshire square out of stainless but I can't find it. Would be quite a cool addition to anyones home brew set up though! I have seen some people just use those square PP boxes you get from IKEA too, I believe they sell some that are food safe

I would though, if trying to get closer to the beers made with them commercially, try and replicate the depth of it on a homebrew scale rather than a scaled down version of the geometry. Here's what Graham Wheeler has had to say on it

"The biggest impact on fermentation performance is vessel depth. Our vessels are far too shallow and we really need something like a 6-foot high drainpipe of suitable diameter as a fermentation vessel to achieve true-to-type yeast performance. The optimum vessel depth from victorian times onwards has been regarded as six feet and ever since almost all traditional breweries have vessels a little over six feet (to allow some headroom).

Even the Brewing Research Institute and The National Collection of Yeast Cultures do small scale yeast trials in what I think are called " Tall - tube fermenters", which are six-foot long test tubes that look like yard-of-ale glasses, only two yards long of course.

Some old-time traditional breweries swear by "rounds"; others by "squares" as fermentation vessels. The old Everards brewery in Burton used rounds, as did one of the now defunct Oxford breweries.

Small breweries used rounds because you could use traditional cooperage techniques to make your vessels, or have them made by local coopers.

I suspect that one reason Yorkshire used squares was because it has got to be ruddy difficult to make rounds out of slate, although I am sure that someone has done it. "


Also, just thinking about the "double drop" that a lot of breweries used to use, like Brakspear and I think Fullers - with fermentors of proper height for english yeasts, you could try that technique too - takes the beer off the cold break and re-aerates once for good measure. With homebrew buckets being the wrong size, trying this often results in a stuck/slow fermentation as too much yeast is also removed

Wow, that's interesting Hanglow because yeah, it's always aspect ratio, in most of the literature, anyway. Briggs et al have a decent section in their brewery fermentation chapter on open and closed vessel geometry and issues therein. Lots of stuff but to say one of them, he establishes a height to width of about 1:1.7. This figure has to do with adjacent cooling walls and he makes the point the CCV's have similar issues - where despite vigorous convections, especially on taller vessels, you may not get an even dispersal of cooling.

Anyway, I really appeciate your posting, guys. It's a lot to consider. On a side note, you've gotten me to think and isolate the thought, the organoleptic property of "creaminess": what that truly means in all its properties, on the palate; and how to craft it from a recipe, brewing, and cellaring perspective.

Finding this all very rich. Hope others are as well. Thanks again.

 

[user 246304]

Whoops, forgot to address the "double dropping" you mention, Hanglow. This is method where you have 2 vessels one above the other, and at some point the beer is "racked" by simply dropping to the lower vessel, right?

 

[user 246304]

Their yeast is different from Black Sheep (as both are different from the Timothy Taylor WY1469).

McKnuckle, I missed this particular thing on first pass. 1469 is TT yeast? Do you or anyone else know if WLP037 comes from Black Sheep or Theakston's?

I contact WL and asked about the yeast because it's not listed in their vault selection yet. They said they haven't gotten to their new year releases yet but it's almost certain it will be in the lineup of the "premium" vault strains.

 

[user 246304]

By the way, now we're talking. A true, aged English cheddar, with Riggwelter.

 

[deere322]

McKnuckle, I missed this particular thing on first pass. 1469 is TT yeast? Do you or anyone else know if WLP037 comes from Black Sheep or Theakston's?

I contact WL and asked about the yeast because it's not listed in their vault selection yet. They said they haven't gotten to their new year releases yet but it's almost certain it will be in the lineup of the "premium" vault strains.

in case you didn't know, here is something that comes in handy....

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm